Weiss DAC2 vs Prism Orpheus

[earflappin]

Thanks Keith. You are the man.... :-)

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

The Resolution gear *looks* fantastic. That hammered surface has me licking my lips like Hannibal Lecter staring at that senator: "Love your suit."

 

But doesn't it only do 24/96, or is that only over USB? Hard to find the specs on that box.

 

[f1eng]

I liked the Opus 21 player and when I saw that Resolution Audio were doing a player which had streaming capabilities I requested a demo. It was a long time coming, and the other player/streamer I was interested in by Ayre still has not appeared for demo (or the supplier is not interested).

Anyway, the Cantata is a CD player, it has SPDIF, AES, USB and Ethernet inputs, all completely isolated form the analogue board. CD is obviously CD ;-) USB is limited to 24/96, whether directly or via their Pont Neuf which plugs into a USB port in a remote computer and the Ethernet port at the Cantata. The other inputs go up to 24/196. The Ethernet port can be selected to be for the Pont Neuf or for UPnP. All the inputs are selectable form the remote, which is ergonomically great, well laid out, small and light, but not as pretty as the player... I suspect a machined to match remote would have added a huge amount to the price and been heavy and damaging to furniture though.

Frank

 

[aljordan]

Hi,

 

I've also compared the Orpheus directly to the Weiss Minerva, which I understand is the same thing as the DAC 2 from a design standpoint. In comparison, I thought the Minerva was slightly rolled off at the frequency extremes. The Minerva also exhibited an unpleasant hardness (glare) in the upper midrange in comparison to the Orpheus. The Minerva had a touch more body in the midrange, but the glare was the killer for me.

 

Alan

 

[ted_b]

comparo. It doesn't surprise me that the Orpheus outshines the Weiss. They are not really in the same price category (Prism is 50% more than DAC2). The LIO-8 outshines my Weiss too (hands on inhome comparison I've written about), and will likely be my next DAC...but I'd love to hear or read an Orpheus comparison.

 

[f1eng]

See the Cantata thread for a little more detail.

cheers,

Frank

 

[ItemAudio]

We have a loan Orpheus here that's been putting in some off-the-record sparring rounds against the Antelope Zodiac+, Wyred 4 Sound DAC2, Monarchy NM24 and a modified Benchmark DAC1.

 

I'm not sure that what we're hearing justifies the £1000 premium over the Zodiac+, or the £2000 over the W4S DAC2, but it's very impressive. We're also using some loaned Vovox TRS/XLR interconnects referred to in a different thread that sound surprisingly transparent.

 

Obviously anything I say about any of the above will be shot down as PR fluff - even if it's negative(!), and regardless of whether we sell it (!!), but the Orpheus definitely operates at a higher level in all departments that anything I've heard below £4K.

 

And, no, we don't sell them.

 

[fahadm]

Hello

 

It seems that the audio manufacturers are split into two distinct camps.

 

MARKETING CAMP are those companies that produce different products each at a price point offering 'superior' performance. Linn for example sells budget, middle, premium and super-premium components, each targeting a different buyer segment. I auditioned a number of Linn CD players in one demo, from the USD 1,500 Genki to the USD 20,000 Sondek CD12. While the marginal cost of making a CD12 is slightly higher than a Genki (maybe a few hundred dollars more) but the marketing wizards at Linn ingeniously priced the CD12 at a price point that attracts a certain type of buyer. Luis Vitton is another MARKETING seller that in the words of some of its executives are selling 'dreams' to consumers. Net profit margin on Luis Vitton products is around 95%.

 

The other camp is the ENGINEERING CAMP where companies strive to produce products in the highest quality without attempting to 'cripple' budget lines in order to target different segments or price points. Prism is one of those companies who do not compromise on sound quality and does not differentiate between products. This camp is pragmatic in pricing given that the buyers are sophisticated and more rational than the 'luxury' consumer who base their decisions on emotional needs/wants (e.g. Ladies going after a limited edition LV).

 

Weiss is succumbing to the allure of luxury retail where products are being developed/crippled to fill target price points/consumer segments in the audiophile market. That is, by producing a tweaked product for every budget, segment and market. Weiss is more pragmatic in the pro line where it competes for the minds (and ears) or recording engineers. That's when you see more realistic prices and quality/uncompromised products.

 

So its not fair to judge Weiss through the intentionally crippled, lower-end, audiophile line. A fair comparison would be to listen to Weiss' pro offerings and benchmark against the likes of DAD/Prism.

 

May we wake up one day and find that the world has gotten rid of all marketing hype, inefficiencies, scams and psychacoustic dream-selling. May the ENGINEERING CAMP uncover all those who exploit the unsuspecting consumer. May the demons of marketing cease their deceipt.

 

I know that many will be upset by these words, but use your own ears to judge before you attack and research the cost of components before you defend the hype.

 

[barrows]

I never heard something so preposterous in my life! (OK, perhaps some of the remarks from the current GOP candidates here).

Please explain your experience working in the audio industry that gives you the expertise to make the above statements.

 

"Net profit margin on Luis Vitton products is around 95%"

 

I can gaurantee you that no audio company making electronics has any product with these kind of margins, this analogy is so wrong that it is pitiful.

 

Please refrain from making inflammatory remarks like these unless you are prepared to back them up with some kind of facts, your wild speculations are way off target.

 

[fahadm]

The audiophile business IMHO has some analogies with the luxury business, albeit at lower margins. Take for example a digital stack like the Esoteric or Linn CD12 and see how much the chips, power supplies, etc cost and you'll realize when adding up that they shouldn't cost as much as being charged. The most expensive Burr Brown chips are about USD20-30 retail. Manufacturers get heavy quantity discounts.

 

As for my expertise, I have a bachelors in computer engineering and designed my first d/a and d/a in 1994 for a university project (which didnt sound too bad as I got advice from the faculty). I know how much electronic componenets cost and know my way with a soldering iron. You really don't need a 2nd mortgage for silicon and copper components.

 

And kindly refrain from attacking every post I make as youve been since i joined this forum. Everyone has a right to express their opinion. So cut it out. If you have something personal against me take lets discuss it in person or over the phone. I own and use daily the stuff I refer to and have a benchmark for the past 20 years. When you do the same lets talk. So what's YOUR experience???

 

[Elprior]

Hi,

 

I guess you're speaking about Louis Vuitton instead...

 

Elp

 

[fahadm]

LOL....yes, thanks for the spell check

 

[f1eng]

There is little doubt that the electronic components in any piece of hifi cost only a tiny fraction of the total manufacturing cost. Trendy new old stock valves (tubes) are very expensive. Some specialist PCB types are expensive to tool for, particularly multi-layer exotic material ones, so add an inordinate amount of cost to small production runs since the tooling amortisation has to be shared over a small number of units. Output transformers for valve amps are expensive. Big mains transformers are expensive. Some other transformers are expensive too. The enclosure can be anything from very cheap (painted pressed steel box), fairly cheap (same box with simple solid ally faceplate, expensive (custom designed stylish box made of machined slabs of metal) or very expensive (CNC machined out of billet).

These enclosures may or may not improve the sound but they certainly increase the cost!

From an engineering perspective, taking production volume into account, I can easily see that the percentage margin on a Linn CD 12 would not be as much more than the cheaper units as implied in your post since the machining on the disc transport and the machined from solid enclosure would be between 10 to 100x more expensive than their cheaper low volume models (maybe more). I do not know whether the expensive to tool PCB is different or whether the same circuit board with different components is used for several models. If different its piece-part cost will be many times more expensive than the cheaper units (by at least a factor of the difference in production volumes).

Assembly costs will be potentially more if the low volume items are built individually rather than on a production line.

Anyway, I think the extra cost of the small volume high end items is very often unfairly criticised by people who have no production background.

Whether the increased cost, hence price, is justified by the improvement in sound quality is a completely different thing. The vast majority of the price difference is due to cosmetic and production volume related costs, not improved performance.

Frank

 

[ItemAudio]

At last, I've been able to gather enough DACs to put together a group test: all afternoon, phone off the hook, 4x ears on:

 

Prism Orpheus DAC 2 vs Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 vs Monarchy Audio NM24 vs Antelope Zodiac + vs modded Benchmark DAC1

 

Part two planned shortly: best of the above vs Bryston, Naim, Weiss, etc.

 

Deeply curious about how they all compare...

 

 

[steve2701]

''CD12 is slightly higher than a Genki (maybe a few hundred dollars more) but the marketing wizards at Linn ingeniously priced the CD12 at a price point that attracts a certain type of buyer. Luis Vitton is another MARKETING seller that in the words of some of its executives are selling 'dreams' to consumers. Net profit margin on Luis Vitton products is around 95%''.

 

Worked at linn have you? Taken these products apart and tried to build one for yourself?

Tried marketing it and running the entire company in the process as well?

Have you seen inside a CD12 and the casework involved?

 

I dont use them but I do understand what makes a company like them 'tick'

Your analogy with high priced fashion clothing is way out of touch.

95% profit margin? - please, get real.

You simply cannot guess at the true cost of a product without knowing the R&D costings as well as the cost of prodution and parts.

 

Fact is that they make some very good sounding products and manage to sell a few.

F1eng has made some exceedingly good and very valid points above - they need to be well read and fully understood.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fahadm]

I completely ignored the production cost of aspects such as casing. I focused excessively on active components such as DAC chips without consideration to aesethtics/volume/economies of scale.

 

FWIW, while the Linn CD12 is one of the finest CD players I have ever heard, I wish that Linn made a 'plastic' version retaining the same sound quality (minus the gorgeous case/aesthetics) and positioned it for higher production volume.

 

Oh wait, isn't that what pro gear does?

 

Best

Fahad

 

[fahadm]

Thank you, in advance, for a dream shoot-out.

 

My bet is on the Prism (i have a cool monarchy M24 with a pair of 20 bit Burr Brown PCM63).

 

Firewire can have an advantage over spdif.

 

Best

Fahad

 

[barrows]

No personal attack meant, I am only pointing out that your posts denigrating high end component manufacturers are in error. This is not a matter of opinion. Comparsions between mass marketed products like Louis Vuitton luggage and top of the line high end audio components are ludicrous.

The high end audio companies are not getting rich off of this stuff, most of them are barely surviving. They do not have a pricing strategy based on ripping consumers off, in fact, most of them try very hard to give good value in their products. As in any industry that sells what can be considered a "luxury" item, many high end companies do produce top of the line products that were built as "cost no object" designs-this is not done to boost profits, it is done to push the limits of audio design, and as with other industries, there are customers (generally the quite wealthy) for these products. Additionally, most audio companies do not make their profits from their most expensive products-they stay in business based on the sales of their mid and lower level gear.

High end audio is not the same in a business sense as general consumer electronics, or computers. High end audio is a very small market, with very small companies, producing high quality products in very low volumes-the economies of scale are entirely different, and the cost of R & D is quite high and spread over many fewer units. I do not mind if you want to complain about the high price of some audio components, certainly I wish some gear was more affordable, but to suggest that greed, profit making, and marketing is the reason for the high price is just plain wrong.

 

[ItemAudio]

Bit unfair on the Wyred 4 Sound DAC: £865 vs £2400 (Antelope), £1850 (modded Benchmark), £1400 (Monarchy NM24) and £3200 (Prism Orpheus). But I wanted to see if it was truly a giant-killer!

 

I'm preparing a full review that I won't be permitted to share here, but the bottom line is that the Prism went a long way to justifying its cost with clear best-of-day performance.

 

It's pretty sensational.

 

I really want to hear it now alongside the Weiss (which one of my customers tells me is 'synthetic') and the Bryston and Metric Halo (which seem universally admired) and the Naim DAC, which is appearing in bulk on classified adverts, apparently being moved on by disillusioned owners.

 

Who's the Daddy from £2-3K?

 

[barrows]

Please share the transport method for all DACs involved. My experience shows that the transport has a lot to do with the ultimate sound quality, I assume the Orpheus was via Firewire, what was the transport method for each of the other DACs? For a different product in a similar price category you should consider testing the new Aesthetix Pandora. This DAC uses the "Streamlength" async USB code, proprietary digital filtering/oversampling, and a very good no feedback fully balanced tube output stage. The Ayre QB-9 should also be in the mix.

Also, with such testing details matter, unless all DACs are kept powered up (and allowed to warm up for at least a couple of hours) during the test, I would consider the results completely invalid as the would not represent the real performance/sonic character of the components.

 

[fahadm]

Thank you for sharing initial results.

 

IMHO, the Orpheus excels in clocking/jitter management. That's why the sound is so open and natural, especially with properly recorded acoustics/vocals. It gets very involving, even through SPDIF.

 

I tried very hard to fix the Monarchy's jitter blues (even bought 2 generations of Monarchy's DIP), but never succeeded in removing jitter.

 

Shoot-out part 2 FORECAST (only):

 

Orpheus vs Metric Halo = Metric Halo wins

Orpheus vs Weiss DAC 2 = Orpheus wins

Orpheus vs Naim DAC = Orpheus wins

Orpheus vs Weiss DAC 202 = tie

Orpheus vs Bryston = Orpheus wins

 

Great stuff

 

[ted_b]

It's great, ItemAudio, that you are doing this, but often times these tests are done at the expense of one or more DACs (i.e asking all pitchers in spring training to throw fastballs; some excel and get batters out...the ultimate goal...with curves, etc). If Wyred excels at USB, then feed it USB...yadayada. Also, make sure each DAC is well broken in. When I auditioned the Antelope Zodiac Plus, it took over 300 hours to flesh out, for example.

 

[Miska]

Take for example a digital stack like the Esoteric or Linn CD12 and see how much the chips, power supplies, etc cost and you'll realize when adding up that they shouldn't cost as much as being charged. The most expensive Burr Brown chips are about USD20-30 retail. Manufacturers get heavy quantity discounts.

 

Since I work in both software and electronics, I would like to present my point of view.

 

Many people tend to complain about software license prices, but before complaining please estimate number of work hours spent on developing those, as well as rough estimate of licenses to-be-sold (and in EU roughly 50-75% of the price tends to go into taxes). Developing software is very labour intensive, material investment depends on the kind of software.

 

Same goes for electronics, R&D costs for designing the electronics, building prototypes, buying measurement equipment, etc. And at least I don't get any quantity discounts for the tiny volumes I have. Plain BOM for top-quality DAC device can exceed 1000€ for small volumes. To get quantity discount, typically one needs to purchase components for at least 1000 units. And it takes many hours of work to build each unit.

 

There's a huge difference between devices produced and sold in millions of units versus devices produced and sold in tens or hundreds. And in order to reach millions of customers, one has to make tradeoffs for reaching pricepoints and such.

 

[Purite Audio]

If you are interested in Prism it might be worth tracking down one of their older DA2's

the Orpheus isn't bad at all, relatively coloured compared to the Metric Halo though,also worth considering the Digital Audio Denmark Ax24 .

Keith.

 

[andre]

i would love to see the breakdown cost on a $27000 virtual dynamics power cords , man hours , purchase of new testing equipement ( we all know that the testing equipement from last year cord wont reveal todays reference....... totally new parameters ) blah blah

i know of a manufacturer that charges 800chf for a speacial wood volume knob ( i wonder how many acres of woodland did he destroy to find the perfect midrange )

let us not forget the 2000usd a litre contact enhancer ( they use a several bottles of vintage dom perignon to start the process)