Weiss DAC2 vs Prism Orpheus

[f1eng]

We were discussing DACs, and I think it is reasonable to expect that the low volume items using beautifully machined cases will be expensive to produce and have high selling prices even if they are little if any better than inexpensively housed mass produced items.

If you want to change the subject to overpriced accessories then I believe there is an enormous amount of gullibility being exploited with cables and "room treatments". There are sound technical reasons why cables may effect the sound of certain components, but little wood discs, blocks with expensive metal additions can have no physical effect on room acoustics, unless they buzz...

Astonishingly expensive cosmetic upgrades, such as wooden knobs, are a question of taste and wealth. Some people pay a lot of money for things they think look nice - their prerogative.

I changed my Spectral Preamp for a more expensive Goldmund unit even though I thought they sounded the same. Having chosen Goldmund transport DAC and power amps on sound quality, having everything all matching was worth the cost to me at that time.

 

 

[barrows]

"i would love to see the breakdown cost on a $27000 virtual dynamics power cords , man hours , purchase of new testing equipement ( we all know that the testing equipement from last year cord wont reveal todays reference....... totally new parameters ) blah blah"

 

I strictly limited my comments to electronic components, purposefully leaving cables and accessories out of the discussion. I left out cables/accessories because there are indeed some cable companies that appear to charge exorbitantly high prices for products which would be hard for me to justify. Let me make it clear, that I do not feel this way about all cable companies (nor accessory companies).

Two things should be remembered when considering cable and accessory purchases: company and dealer margins are usually quite a bit higher for cables and accessories than they are for electronics. As such, dealers are often much more willing to "deal" on price for cables and accessories, as they have more room to move on price while still making a decent profit. This is no different than many other retail businesses (bicycles, cars) where dealers often make most of their profits from accessory purchases. If considering a cable purchase, try dealing, also, try bundling electronics purchases with accessories and deal. Dealing like this is one of the big advantages of working with a traditional brick and mortar retailer.

As to the VD cable above, I know nothing about it, but I would be willing to bet that VD does not sell many of these... Say they sell ten-twenty units a year, and they had 1000 man hours of development time for the cable. So the development might have cost them $100 x 1000=$100K. Say the life of the cable in the market is three years, so in total they expect to sell ~60 units for the life of the product. So the development cost per unit is $100000/60 about $16K per cable...hmmm. I am not suggesting anyone go out and buy a $27K power cable, just saying that it is possible the price is reasonable for what may have gone into this cable and how many they expect to sell.

The benefit of manufacturers producing very high price, cost no object products is two fold:

1. This process pushes the limits of the possible, and points the way to what aspects of design are important to product performance, allowing for the trickle down effect of performance into more reasonably priced models.

2. The absolute SOTA is advanced (sometimes), and the few customers who have unlimited funds have new ways to spend them, funding development for the rest of us audiophiles.

 

[hifitubes]

I wish I could teleport this Burl DAC to you. Also, I would love to hear Forssell's new DAC as well as the JCF Audio Latte (or the DA8 http://www.mercenary.com/jcf-da8v.html).

 

[ted_b]

and yet still remains a highly detailed presentation. My only issue with it is that I need a FW or USB interface and didn't really find a great one (other than my Weiss DAC2 as interface) during the time I had the Forssell from Fred. The Weiss solutions are $1800 and the DAC is $3k.

 

[hifitubes]

The Forssell doesn't have 2 word clock outputs like the Burl, but one, with another as an option. I thought you had a Lynx card to try AES with it, my mistake.

 

[ted_b]

just an AES and S/PDIF input, and XLR analog outs, period.

 

[juanitox]

hi , just my experience with this 3 dacs . first the burl B2 ( with moded hiface) , sound dry, flat and 2D. thanks to the 30 day trial.

 

last week i have bought the acclaimed Weiss 202 dac and use it in firewire with pure music and a 2010 mac mini. great sounds, best medium i never heard, strong bass but harsh and mechanical highs . impossible to stay with as i have horn speaker...

last week i have found a used berkeley dac in europe on audiogon and jump on it. the result is So-So . the berkeley has better highs more refined, same 3d image and same thight and strong bass even a little better than the Weiss. but the medium is not as "magic" as the weiss an globally i find that the alpha ( with moded hiface) sounds a little too polite , not enough flesh on the bones for my taste.

 

so what's up doc? trying a Prism or metric halo, a tube dac or

a pill of vallium ?

 

cheers;

 

[Purite Audio]

Juan I would look at the set up of your Avant Gardes, harsh and mechanical the Weiss is not.

'Andre ' who posts here had the same problem with his AG,s perhaps pm him.

Keith.

 

[hifitubes]

@ TedB

 

Sorry Ted, I thought I remembered Fred had the option to ad a word clock output to it, and when I went to the site I ended up looking at his ADC specs by accident.

 

@ Juanitox

 

You are finding world class DACs sound, frankly, bad in your system. With all due respect, I think it is time to re-examine your signal chain.

 

With your modded HiFace, you are using a BNC/RCA adapter on an RCA coax HiFace I assume for testing the Burl? The Burl only has coax RCA input, the Alpha has BNC, and the 202 RCA coax digital input.

 

 

[juanitox]

i never say any off this dac is bad , just perhaps the burl b2 is not as good as the Weiss or the berkeley.

 

yes i was using a moded Rca hiface and use a bnc adapter with the berkeley.

 

in fact it's just different flavour of sound , the Avant-garde nano and decware amp have very transparent sound. and the source is a really important part of my system .

i have tried the Weiss minerva of a friend in it and really like it , that's why i bought the Weiss 202. and if the 202 is better in all aréa ( details, image, medium , etc..) i just didn't like the digital glare in the highs.. i have found the minerva to be more dynamic too.

 

in this aréa i find the berkeley more natural and having a more refined treble. but not as good in medium and voices. no body is perfect..

 

in fact , sometimes i regret the "old fashioned' dacs as my beloved Wadia 9 or audio aero capitole CD player.

perhpas it'sme to be in the wrong and don't like "straight sounding' dac as the weiss but prefer more relaxed and warm ones..

 

details, transparency:

 

Weiss 202

weiss Minerva = berkeley alpha

burl B2

 

bass:

 

bekeley alpha= weiss 202

weiss minerva

burl B2

 

dynamic:

weiss minerva

weiss 202

berkeley alpha= burl b2

 

image:

 

weiss 202

berkeley alpha= weiss minerva

burl B2

 

natural (less digital sounding):

 

berkeley alpha

weiss 202=weiss minerva

burl B2

 

just my 2 euro..

 

 

 

 

 

[Purite Audio]

Really I would look at the set up of the Avant Gardes.

Keith.

 

[ItemAudio]

Juanitox: your experience sounds entirely credible to me: all the candidates at this price point have (literally) a high measure of competence but, as you say, nothing's perfect.

 

And unless you have striven to put together as system (including the room) without any impediments to complete neutrality, there's going to be some system-centric bias going on.

 

It might be fair to say that all these DACs are so good, we have the luxury of choosing a preferred presentation, rather than being able to say quite as empirically as we can at lower prices points that DAC A is 'better' than DAC B.

 

In the first part of our group test, it was interesting to monitor reactions to the Monarchy NM24: so wrong, yet so seductive! Ultimately there's a difference between 'favourite' and 'best'.

 

[juanitox]

hi keith my friend who had the Minerva have mulidine accord ('normal' electro dynamic speaker )and Cary KT88 amplifier so not on the bright side system and we have found the same result in his system. the two weiss dac have a digital signature in the treble that the berkeley or the other dacs i'v owned don't had.

he also have a Mitchell orbe SE turntable so it's easy to compare digital and analog trebles..

 

it 's a subtil sibilance in the treble area but when you are sensitive to that you can't forget it along listening music.

 

""Ultimately there's a difference between 'favourite' and 'best'.""

 

that's only what i'm talking about

 

[barrows]

Since have not been satisfied yet with a DAC I'll make two suggestions:

1. Ditch the hiface, even the modified ones are not on par with the quality of DACs you are trying out. If you need Firewire, USB to SPDIF conversion, use a Weiss INT202 or Wavelength Wavelink, to be sure your getting the best out of your computer. (I realise that you used Firewire with the Weiss DAC)

2. Sounds like you might enjoy a tube DAC. Aesthetix has a new DAC, the Pandora, which offers 24/192 async USB input using Wavelength Audio's "Streamlength" code, and a fully balanced tube output stage, you might want to give this DAC a try in your system.

If you think the Weiss is too "digital" in the high frequencies, I doubt that you will find any pro DACs satisfying.

 

[juanitox]

thks for your suggestion, in fact i have send my Mac mini to a french company "DBystem" who moded them ( power supply and digital output) and will try sooner with also an halide bridge .

 

if if it don't works as i expect , i will change of direction and looks after a tube dac, accustic tube dac, or Jadis JS1, Zanden dac for exemple.

 

too many gear to try , not enough money to buy them all.

 

 

[f1eng]

When I demoed a new Weiss DAC2 I had exactly the same impression at first, a slightly hard treble region. Later auditioning this shortcoming was gone. Whether on first auditioning, in the evening, the mains was carrying a lot of hash, or whether the unit needed burning in, whatever that entails, I don't know, but it sounded better later. I did not persist with it, which in retrospect may have been unfair.

Anyway after trying Weiss DAC2, Linn Klimax DS, Sonic Studio model 4&5, Metric Halo LIO-8, Prism Orpheus and Resolution Audio Cantata I bought Cantata and LIO-8, but find myself listening to Amarra and Cantata 99% of the time.