SGC - sonicTransporter Series and Signalyst HQPlayer 4 Embedded

[Miska]

9 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

As mentioned above, unfortunately the current production Apple TV's only have a HDMI output these days. 

 

Only the older model Apple TV's (out of production, some available on eBay) have both HDMI and optical output. Those older models will stop being supported at some point, with the move to Airplay 2 and then after that.

 

 

Apple TV is not so great for music playback anyway, as it has fixed 48 kHz output rate, so everything will get converted to that one. Airport Express has optical output that is fixed to 44.1k output rate and thus more suitable for many music playback cases. However, Airport Express is discontinued stuff too. And I didn't get it working with the miniDSP input, possibly due to too much jitter.

 

HDMI inputs are tricky and expensive to implement because of HDCP requirement which involves lot of protection stuff all over.

 

Google Chromecast Audio dongle is cheaper and better than the Apple products. It is what I have across the house as one of the sources to HQPlayer Embedded.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

But I can't cast from the Qello concerts app on iPad to a Chromecast :-(

 

First world problems I know. I'll think of a solution.

 

Yeah, I don't know about that. Spotify and Tidal support Chromecast though...

 

[Miska]

14 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Any experience with this Kanex adapter?

 

It separates HDMI into HDMI+optical

 

https://www.macworld.com/article/3047640/hardware/kanex-digital-audio-adapter-for-apple-tv-review-comes-to-the-rescue-of-apple-tv-owners.html

 

Ahh, yes there are those splitters, although sometimes hard to get ones. I have never tried such personally, but it could work, unless it has some HDCP related issues. (fine print somewhere)

 

For AirPlay, using something like shairport-sync as input to HQPlayer could be better and simpler option.

[Miska]

8 hours ago, soares said:

This being said, I face problems with the upsampling. The most curious thing is the the white noise comes from my right speaker. On the Roon community web site I also found someone with the same problem but on his left speaker... With Roon upsampling I don't have any problems.

 

I have this white noise problem with my Chord Mojo, even when playing from iPhone 6 or 7 using USB from Camera Connection Kit. Naturally no upsampling. Same thing from my Windows work laptop playing Spotify. Naturally no upsampling what so ever in either case.

 

The Chord implementation just seems to got nuts if there's even slightest disturbance on the USB traffic. Also particular USB cable used has big impact on how soon this will happen at least on Mojo.

 

So far I've got so fed up with Mojo that I'm probably going to discard it because I cannot get it work lengthy times with anything and it drains it's battery all the time even when not in use...

 

 

Anyway... With Chord DAC's, don't send DSD there. They will convert it to PCM in not-so-great way (measured from the DAC output). You are much better off sending highest possible rate PCM there always. So if you have DSD content, let HQPlayer convert it to high rate PCM...

[Miska]

22 hours ago, rickca said:

I thought Chord DAVE had a non-decimating DSD filter.

 

Well, given how their other stuff performs with DSD, I would measure it first... But I'm not going to buy Dave just for measuring it.

 

If someone hangs around in southern Finland with a Dave and wants to visit me with one, we can make a measurement/listening session with it.

 

[Miska]

10 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

But, I’m definitely now moving on from thoughts of getting the Qutest, re both potential streaming & dsd matters.

Have to re-think ... a dac that does quality pcm + dsd.

 

You want to send both PCM and DSD to a DAC? With software upsampling? Maybe take a look/listen for example at Holo Audio Spring DAC.

 

[Miska]

20 hours ago, soares said:

Thank you Miska. The problem is that the second HQplayer license I bought to use in my ST i5 is totally useless with my Qutest... A waste of almost 300 dollars...

 

I don't think so? If you can keep Qutest working with HQPlayer doing upsampling to highest PCM rate it supports.

 

If it is acting up (white noise), it would be good to bug Chord to fix their firmware.

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, soares said:

Miska, the white noise shows up also when upsampling to PCM768... You understand now why I am so upset...I can't compare to my other Mac HQplayer license  because it's an old model that does not more then DSD128 and PCM358.

 

Hmmh, why doesn't it do higher than 384k PCM? Upsampling to PCM is not that heavy, so even with older computers 768k shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

But I think people should really begin to bug Chord about this. I was also upset with my Mojo because I couldn't find a single use for it where it wouldn't do that sooner or later (even at 44.1k PCM input from iPhone). And there have been no firmware updates for it either. I'm just too busy to run around fighting for such fairly inexpensive DAC (for me it would cost more in time than price of the device). So now I only use it when I want to make short tests with it. If needed, Chord can email me and I'm happy to discuss with them and do some tests.

[Miska]

7 hours ago, diecaster said:

I thought about buying HQPlayer for my sonicTransporter i5. But there is no way I am going to spend that kind of money on software that is forever tied to a piece of hardware. Why would I do something that stupid when server hardware is changed as often as toothbrushes??

 

When you buy server from any other hardware manufacturer it's the same thing. Let's say you buy Esoteric or dCS server, you can't lift the software from the hardware. Price of the software is baked into the product price. Same goes for you mobile phone, TV and car...

 

[Miska]

35 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Your software is an add on that costs money to activate. It does not come with the server all ready to run and activated. 

 

You can buy it that way too... And that is the intended way.

 

Possibility to buy it separately is for DIY people.

 

36 minutes ago, diecaster said:

If I buy Windows Server 2016 and install it on a Dell box today, I can buy a HP box 6 months from now and install that copy of Windows Server 2016 on that server hardware without spending a dime.

 

If you buy a computer with pre-installed Windows, it is the OEM version which cannot be moved to a new computer.

 

If you like to have HQPlayer that you can move around you can buy the Desktop version.

[Miska]

10 hours ago, diecaster said:

Your software for the sonicTransporter i5 does not come preinstalled AND enabled. If it did, we would not be having this conversation. It doesn't really matter how you intend it to be used. The simple fact is that I have to pay for it after the fact. In my 40 years in the computer industry, I can't think of any third-party software product that I bought or licensed that could not be transferred to another system if I chose to upgrade the hardware. The license was tied to me and 1 or more of my computers. The reason for this is that computer hardware is always advancing and people are always upgrading. I would never buy a software product that penalized me for upgrading my hardware. This is exactly what you are doing. 

 

I believe such option is available and that's the way I'd prefer it so that we don't need to discuss this.

 

If you send your unit to SGC for upgrade or fix (if it gets broken), the license key is refreshed to match the hardware. As long as the hardware unit is the same.

 

But as an example, I can buy navigation option for my car's IVI system (Volvo). Dealer will install it and activate the software module, the software option costs 1500€ - not including the installation work that would be charged separately. And if I sell the car and buy a BMW instead, I cannot transfer this navigation option to the new car. Not even if I buy another Volvo.

 

If it's a DIY server, you can talk to me about upgrades/fixes, I may refresh the key based on my evaluation, depending on how frequently you do it etc. But this is wrong thread for that.

 

10 hours ago, diecaster said:

In my 40 years in the computer industry, I can't think of any third-party software product that I bought or licensed that could not be transferred to another system if I chose to upgrade the hardware.

 

Windows 10 OEM versions. You can buy it from a computer shop, but once activated it is tied to the particular computer and cannot be transferred.

 

Another one is the electronics CAD I use, which is tied to hardware fingerprint just like HQPlayer.

 

Then there's bunch of music production software that uses USB key dongle for the license and that you can transfer. I considered that at one point, but because the dongle alone costs 150€ (for me) I didn't see it as a viable option because then I would also need to increase the license price for mailing those damn dongles around the world.

 

9 hours ago, diecaster said:

He might as well charge a $99 annual fee to use the software.

 

That has been one option in my mind too, but the price would be likely somewhere between 10€ and 20€ per month with one year minimum subscription.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, soares said:

I am afraid that I agree with the arguments put forward by Diecaster, despite that I end up buying a license (the 2nd one). In the future if I decide to move to an STi7, I will need to buy a 3rd one. Of course it will be my decision but I do not think it is much fair being a HQplayer supporter...

 

I'm a bit lost where you have all those licenses? The whole licensing scheme is built around the idea that you buy hardware with license. It is Embedded version. Like firmware for any other device you can buy like many of those countless streamer devices from various companies that use competing StreamUnlimited software inside...

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, diecaster said:

The Windows 10 OEM version is significantly cheaper than the version that is not tied to hardware. Your model is the other way around.

 

My model has two different products. It is like comparing Windows IoT, Desktop and Server editions. It is just that one of the products is targeted to OEM and another for end-users. I agree that the Desktop version is too cheap, but I haven't increased the price in years...

 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, soares said:

Juddi, you've been following closely this thread and we have already exchanged a couple of messages so I do not understand how can you be lost on the number of licences I got.

 

Yes, sorry, I talk to so many people here and over email that a lot of times I'm especially unable to remember whom I speak to over email is who here on this forum.

 

So Roon works to 768k PCM on the same computer and doesn't run into white noise? Interesting... For me that would be first player to work without white noise to a Chord DAC, because so far what didn't work: HQPlayer at 705.6/768k PCM (mostly works on Linux), Spotify on Windows at 44.1k PCM (works for about one minute), Spotify and Tidal running on iPhone and connected to Mojo using Apple's Camera Connection Kit at 44.1k PCM (works for about one minute). All these cases depend heavily on the USB cable used, some cables work better than others.

 

5 hours ago, soares said:

As you know I have a licence on my old Mac and another one in my STi5

 

Are these both for HQPlayer Desktop?

 

5 hours ago, soares said:

So, if I would want to use HQplayer I would need to buy a 3rd license for instance to use on  STi7 configured for Windows.

 

I sell three types of licenses at the moment: HQPlayer Desktop for Mac/Linux, HQPlayer Desktop for Windows and HQPlayer Embedded. So if you want all three you need to buy three licenses. However you can get bundle discount when you get HQPlayer Desktop for all platforms - also if you want to add second platform later.

[Miska]

6 hours ago, diecaster said:

I need to test something for more than 30 minutes to know that it works well. I have too many horror stories to tell from my software development and testing days to think 30 minutes is enough to adequately test something.

 

It is 30 minutes per run, then you restart it and have another 30 minutes and so on. License allows you to run the trial this way for a month. But there's no technical restriction for the month part, only for the 30 minutes per run.

[Miska]

8 hours ago, diecaster said:

I said the analogy was rediculous. What does a hardware DSP chip have in common with a piece of software that is not installed by default and you have to buy a license for if you want to use it? The answer is nothing. They are completely different cases. 

 

I can give you another example:

Oscilloscopes and other measurement gear, like my audio analyzer. They have software options that are built-in, but available only after buying an activation key for the feature. And they are tied to the particular device/model.

 

Luckily my software option is cheap compared those. Those feature options for measurement gear costs thousands and are much simpler ones. Makes me feel sometimes that I'm selling stuff for way too cheap.

 

[Miska]

21 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Do any of the oscilloscope software options cost 30% of the price of the oscilloscope?

 

Yes they do, can add up to be as much as the measurement device. And the features are much simpler DSP stuff than what HQPlayer does.

 

Just like damn ink cartridges for printers!

 

28 minutes ago, diecaster said:

My race car ECU has the same kind of software options that can be turned on. But none of the features cost 30% the price of the ECU. The ECU can installed in my next race car.

 

So does my Volvo's original ECU. Higher power version of the car is exactly same, just different ECU tuning and costs 3500€ more. That's why I purchased the cheaper one because I know I can upgrade it with third party tuning after the warranty has expired. But I cannot transfer the tuning to a new car. They will charge 500€ again for tuning a new car.

 

For my previous Mini, I had ECU tuning from Superchips and it was tied to the car's VIN, so that I don't go around and install it to friends car too. And it costs freaking 500+€ for just small data set that takes them less than a day to make! I've been working on HQPlayer for 20 years!

 

22 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Also, oscilloscopes don't get upgraded at anywhere near the rate that computers do.

 

If you want to think streamers as computers and not as appliances or other HiFi equipment.

 

24 minutes ago, diecaster said:

If your software was priced at 10% of the cost of the server, I would be worried about it. So, you examples don't really fit the situation.

 

You only know the price only because I sell it directly too to allow people build their own servers. Unlike competing solutions.

 

34 minutes ago, diecaster said:

If you raised the price of your software, I would be even less inclined to buy it because I would be risking throwing away even more money if I upgraded my server.

 

I was talking about price of the Desktop version. But also note that Embedded has features Desktop version doesn't have.

 

35 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Heck, if you charged a reasonable new server activation fee we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Well, that is something I can think about! You'd probably need to ask me for a coupon code, but it should be doable. I need to deactivate old licenses which is pain...

 

For me, selling HQPlayer Embedded directly is not the primary means selling it, but instead through hardware manufacturers as part of the hardware.

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, soares said:

as I mentioned before my Qutest is not compatible with the HQplayer upsampling DSD256 and PCM768. Roon upsampling  is but the quality of the filters provided by HQplayer are far greater.

 

Now I'm playing through following setup with HQPlayer upsampling to 768/32 and microRendu running the latest NAA updates. So far 30 minutes without white noise... This just emphasizes my earlier findings that the Chord device is really really sensitive to the USB source (and cable). That short USB cable is the one that comes with Mojo.

 

[Miska]

56 minutes ago, Sloop John B said:

I must have missed this, can you outline these features?

 

So far most notable ones are support for realtime inputs (digital and analog) and UPnP Renderer functionality.

 

HQPlayer Desktop is as name says primarily a player application for a normal computer OS and made to function as such. HQPlayer Embedded is more like what people call "streamer" and "upsampler" as hardware devices, it just puts both of those functionalities to the same box and does more than what those would traditionally do (convolution engine for digital room correction and such). These two are used in somewhat different way, although there is some overlap when used with something like Roon or HQPDcontrol.

 

[Miska]

Regarding pricing, looking at percentage of price compared to hardware device it runs on is not fair. SGC sonicTransporter is just one of the most affordable products offering it...

 

[Miska]

8 minutes ago, mansr said:

Many of the options on Tektronix scopes are transferable (within the same product range).

 

Until you want to "upgrade" as discussed here, where newer fancier product line couple of years later uses different license dongle. I had this issue once myself with Tektronix "FFT" option dongle. And that was just a software feature, no new hardware. Just enabled spectrum analysis functionality. And I just remember it was over 1000€.

 

For hardware dongles it is easier to arrange transfers without ending several units having the option enabled, after being paid once. If I used those USB license dongles that would be easier. But as I said, I don't like the idea of increasing my license price by 150+€ just because I need to also sell a small USB dongle (and they charge crazy yearly license fees for the dongle software stack too)!

 

10 minutes ago, mansr said:

To be clear, I'm not defending such pricing models, just giving an example.

 

The prices they ask are quite a bit different level and I don't particularly like that every small thing comes with big price tag and separate option.

 

My audio analyzer also has bandwidth option license key and that is tied to the analyzer unit serial number. It only enables wider bandwidth, no hardware changes or any extra accessories.

 

[Miska]

3 hours ago, diecaster said:

Whoa! Are you telling me that the license is tied to both me and my sonicTransporter and if I sell my sonicTransporter, the HQPlayer license does not go with it? Now that is not anything like Windows 10 OEM or software activated in hardware Miska has referenced that I know about. Those are all tied to the hardware only.

 

You can't have it both ways and be reasonable. Either the license is tied to me and can be moved to other servers or it is tied to the hardware and stays enabled for the life of the hardware whoever owns it.

 

If you buy it from SGC it is tied to the sonicTransporter and it is transferred together with it.

 

If you buy it separately, it holds your name instead of device serial number and can be transferred to limited extent (subject to review). For example if you want to transfer it once per month or once per week, I'll so no. But you'll need to ask me every time.

 

If it becomes too much problem, I could stop selling it directly altogether and be more like the competing products. So far I just didn't want to screw over DIY server builders because I personally hate stuff where you need to be a big and famous company in order to be able to buy X. AKM's chips used to be like that and ESS still is, while for TI/Cirrus/Wolfson never has been a problem. Not long ago I tried to buy small batch of AKM DAC chips and the answer from local distibutor was "no, we don't sell small quantities" (read: less than 1000). Nowadays that distributor probably doesn't sell any anymore, because now people can order exactly as many they want from the big dealers.

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

What products have HQPlayer embedded included btw ?

 

Some of those are listed on the web page (near bottom of the page), more on the way:

https://www.signalyst.com/custom.html

 

[Miska]

15 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Let me get this straight: if I buy the embedded version of HQPlayer from you for my sonicTransporter i5 and either find I need a more powerful server and get the sonicTransporter i7 or I upgrade my sonicTransporter i5 to a sonicTransporter i7 down the road sometime, you will transfer the license?

 

The way I see it, you buy sonicTransporter with HQPlayer license. You send it back for upgrade, SGC will refresh the license for the upgraded unit. One unit doesn't become two and everything is fine. SGC may charge you something for the upgrade, what happens between me and SGC is our business and you don't need to worry about it. You sell the unit and the license goes with the unit.

 

Now there's a more complex case of sonicTransporters from the times before you could buy one with HQPlayer Embedded license. So there's "soft upgrade path" with add-on functionality for pre-existing units.

 

What I don't want to see is that someone installs license on sonicTransporter i5, sells off that device, with the license and then wants to have a new license key for their new "upgraded" sonicTransporter i7. Now there would be two devices with license for the price of one. Rinse and repeat, there could be countless computers with "transferred" license where the old ones still hang around somewhere.

 

If you build your own server and want to run HQPlayer Embedded on it, I've been quite flexible for that case too, because I see it valuable and like to do similar things myself so I want to support it, but that is not subject of this thread...

 

[Miska]

Based on some questions, I feel some more clarifications for the HQPlayer license are needed since there are two cases we are talking about here in terms if SGC sonicTransporter... And the discussion on the thread is not clear either. So I will try to spell things out as clear as I can.

 

1) You buy a new sonicTransporter with HQPlayer Embedded license included. License is registered to the device not to the person. If you sell the sonicTransporter the license must go with it. So essentially you can sell both the hardware and the license because the belong together. If you send the device back to SGC for fixing/upgrades the license stays as it was before - within the same unit. But you cannot transfer the license to another computer. This is the "OEM" model.

 

2) You had sonicTransporter before the option was available, or you purchased sonicTransporter without the option. You personally purchase the HQPlayer Embedded license from my web shop. The license is registered to your name and email. You cannot sell the license forward for example if you sell the computer where it is. But you have limited possibility to transfer the license to another computer (subject to review, you need to ask me). This is the "DIY" model.

 

So option (1) restricts your possibility to transfer licenses to another computer, but not the possibility to transfer it to another person. While option (2) restricts your possibility to transfer licenses to another person,  but not the (practical/reasonable) possibility to transfer it to another computer.