Tidal sucks

[Cebolla]

5 hours ago, Fridolin said:

No - not all of it sucks, but part of it.

 

The problematic part of Tidal are those albums that aren't playing HIFI, even if you have a HIFI subscription. And there are countless albums that aren't coded for HIFI.

 

Since a couple of months, these albums don't play in 320 kbps any more as they did before.
Instead they play in even worse 96 kbps what is inacceptable because i pay for HIFI quality.

 

I even tried to downgrade my subscription to Tidal Premium with the hope that these albums would play in 320 kbps, but to no avail. All HIFI-albums then play in 320 kbps, and those LOFI-albums stay at 96 kbps.

 

That really sucks!

 

Hi Fridolin,

 

I believe the problem albums are ones that TIDAL have their tracks originally encoded as lossy MP3 in their archive and have never bothered upgrading to lossless formats, ie, ALAC (to supply the Apple ecosystem) and FLAC (for everyone else). These (old) MP3 album file tracks are mostly at 320 kbps bitrate, but some are at lower quality 256 kbps, eg:

Núcleo - José Luis Gutiérrez Trio

 

There's a further problem in that the majority of audio devices that can stream directly from TIDAL's online servers with a TIDAL HiFi account connection, for some reason cannot stream the original MP3 file tracks and are are supplied the lowest quality 96 kbps AAC streams instead - such as your Auralic Aries Mini.

 

I know of only two TIDAL HiFi supporting devices/platforms that can still stream the original lossy TIDAL MP3 album tracks (320 kbps or 256 kbps):

- Roon;

- ickStream (for Squeezebox type devices via the Logitech Media Server).

 

John

[Cebolla]

3 hours ago, ShawnC said:

What kind of music are you listening too?  Is this on your phone or home computer based system.  If it's your phone, make sure in it's setting that it's not automatically converting it to lower streaming setting to save battery and space.  When I'm streaming at home the only artist I've found with lower that 44.1khz is My Morning Jacket.  On my Iphone it automatically defaults it to lower setting to save on battery and data.  

 

The issue that the OP is referring to is not obvious if you are using TIDAL's own Desktop and iOS/Android apps, since with them it is difficult (if not impossible) to tell both the TIDAL stream's audio file type (MP3, AAC, FLAC, ALAC, etc) and what the actual bitrate is (important info for lossy audio formats such as AAC & MP3).

[Cebolla]

51 minutes ago, Fridolin said:

That's only the case since a few moths. Before that, my Aries Mini was indeed able to stream these albums (files) in AAC 320 kbps and displayed the right information in the app. Which was, by the way, not "HIFI", too.

 

The fact that even before the Aries Mini was receiving AAC streams, as opposed to in the original MP3 audio format is probably significant. So the streams were already being transcoded by the TIDAL servers from MP3 to AAC for some reason, albeit at a 320 kbps bitrate. It's possible that a few months ago the TIDAL server's MP3 to AAC transcoding process was (either deliberately or unintentionally) changed by TIDAL to always produce the low 96 kbps AAC bitrate you are receiving currently.

 

BTW, you should be able to get the Aries Mini to be controlled as if it were a Squeezebox and therefore stream the original MP3 320/256 kbps TIDAL album tracks with the Logical Media Server and the ickStream LMS plugin (also requires the UPnPBridge LMS plugin) - assuming you can still set the Aries to standard UPnP mode.

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Fridolin said:

But now you can recognise the bad bitrates even with the native macOS Tidal app.

You can observe the downloaded (=streamed) amount of data for a single title and calculate the bitrate out of the amount of data (if you know the length of the title).

 

I suppose it gives you some rough idea of the bitrate, though not exactly an accurate nor obvious/easy way for the average user to obtain it, compared to it actually being displayed by the player - assuming you can trust the player's display that is!

[Cebolla]

4 hours ago, jhwalker said:

I just checked - Audirvana streams AAC 320 on the ones I checked from the list above.

 

That's very interesting. Are you certain Audirvana connecting with a TiDAL HiFi account is reporting AAC (and not MP3), plus is it at 320 kbps (and not 256 kbps) with the Núcleo - José Luis Gutiérrez Trio album (link in my post you quoted)?

If so, it may be that streamers on Apple hardware are being treated differently with their TIDAL connection.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, jhwalker said:

So it's not necessarily that "Tidal sucks", as the title of this thread states - if they have the lossless version, that's what you get.  If they have a lossy version, they're not going to "upgrade" it to lossless, they'll stream what they have (in some cases, I suspect there is no lossless version available).

 

Not necessarily: the Núcleo - José Luis Gutiérrez Trio album is available on a bog standard audio CD, so a lossless version is out there & still available for purchase:

https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/jose-luis-gutierrez-albums/59-nucleo.html

Image from Discogs

[Cebolla]

5 hours ago, Fridolin said:

You're right. The calculated bitrate isn't surely exact. But you can roughly estimate that it is about 96 kbps - not 128 kbps, nor any higher. 

 

A  DAC with a display should show the bitrates, too. Or am i wrong?

 

Oops, classic oversight - DACs do not receive audio files be they lossy, compressed, or otherwise! The bitrate of the realtime digtal audio signal that the DAC is receiving would be that for the decoded audio file, ie, bog standard (uncompressed) LPCM.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Fridolin said:

The "Logical Media Server and the ickStream LMS" route seems promising. I will try that. 

The Aries works in standard UPnP mode, too.

 

But the standard Tidal customer is really left alone.

 

Good to know the Aries still works in standard UPnP mode. Let me know if you require any help setting up LMS for TIDAL & connection to standard UPnP streamer.

 

[Cebolla]

9 hours ago, Cebolla said:

I know of only two TIDAL HiFi supporting devices/platforms that can still stream the original lossy TIDAL MP3 album tracks (320 kbps or 256 kbps):

- Roon;

- ickStream (for Squeezebox type devices via the Logitech Media Server).

 

FWIW, here's the thread on the Roon Labs community site that discusses the MP3 albums in TIDAL HiFi:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mp3-albums-in-tidal-hifi/25285/8

 

I forgot that our very own @wkliefrom Lumin also contributed to that thread by reporting the following:

 

"I've just done further testing for the album in post #1 using Tidal API:

soundQuality setting as LOSSLESS gives 256kbps MP3
soundQuality setting as HIGH gives 256kbps MP3
soundQuality setting as LOW gives 96kbps AAC"

 

- "the album in post #1" being the Can't Wait for Perfect - Rob Reynolds album.

 

So it's very likely that the Lumin devices may also (still) be streaming 320 kbps or 256 kbps MP3 albums in TIDAL HiFi.

Perhaps @wklie can confirm?

[Cebolla]

Yes, there are several ways of doing this. The easiest software to install and control would be Squeezeplay - Mac version available here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/lmsclients/files/squeezeplay/osx/

[Cebolla]

11 hours ago, wklie said:

With a Lumin player using a Tidal HiFi account for US country, here's the bitrate of the first track of each album:

 

320kbps AAC:

Joanne Shaw Taylor|Almost Always Never

Joanne Shaw Taylor|Diamonds In The Dirt

Joe Bonamassa|A New Day Yesterday

Joe Bonamassa|Sloe Gin

 

96kbps AAC:

Núcleo - José Luis Gutiérrez Trio

Jimmy Ponder|Jimmy Ponder

Joanne Shaw Taylor|White Sugar

Joe Bonamassa|Had To Cry Today

Joe Bonamassa|So It's Like That

 

Cannot find:

Jimmy Ponder|Steel City Blues

 

Using my UK based TIDAL HiFi account with the BubbleUPnP Android app, I've found exactly the same AAC audio format and bitrates as @wklie has. However, I am able to access the Jimmy Ponder|Steel City Blues album and that is streaming as 96 kbps AAC.

 

@Fridolin, it's odd that the UK account would be the same as the US account and therefore different to your German account. So may be it's more to do with the device/platform used to connect to TIDAL, than the region.

 

Is there any chance you could test your German TIDAL HiFi account with the BubbleUPnP Android app (free version will do), using @wklie's music list?

It might also be best to double check the same list with the Auralic, just to make sure that hasn't suddenly changed.

 

 

 

@wklie, in your Roon Lab community post I quoted, you metioned testing using the TIDAL API for a particular track with "soundQuality setting as LOSSLESS gives 256kbps MP3".

I am also getting MP3 streams using the UK TIDAL HiFi account with the ickstream/LMS platform (so different to the AAC streams obtained with the BubbleUPnP Android app on the same UK account), as follows:

 

320kbps MP3:

(Jimmy Ponder|Steel City Blues)

Joanne Shaw Taylor|Almost Always Never

Joanne Shaw Taylor|Diamonds In The Dirt

Joanne Shaw Taylor|White Sugar

Joe Bonamassa|A New Day Yesterday

Joe Bonamassa|Had To Cry Today

Joe Bonamassa|Sloe Gin

Joe Bonamassa|So It's Like That

 

256kbps MP3:

Núcleo - José Luis Gutiérrez Trio (as I reported in previous post)

Jimmy Ponder|Jimmy Ponder

 

Are you also able to get the same MP3 streams for those albums using the TIDAL API and are their bitrates the same?

If you are also getting MP3 streams using the TIDAL API, what is the explanation for the Lumin player receiving AAC streams instead of MP3 for the same albums?

[Cebolla]

2 hours ago, Fridolin said:

I tested the list of albums again with my Aries Mini and got the same results as @wklie.

 

320kbps AAC:
Joanne Shaw Taylor|Almost Always Never
Joanne Shaw Taylor|Diamonds In The Dirt
Joe Bonamassa|A New Day Yesterday
Joe Bonamassa|Sloe Gin
 
96kbps AAC:
Núcleo - José Luis Gutiérrez Trio
Jimmy Ponder|Jimmy Ponder

Jimmy Ponder|Steel City Blues
Joanne Shaw Taylor|White Sugar
Joe Bonamassa|Had To Cry Today
Joe Bonamassa|So It's Like That

 

All files were AAC, no Mp3.

 

That means i have to scan all my "LoFi" playlist again to separate "LoFi" albums from "SuperLoFi" albums. Sigh. 

 

Ok, well at least it from this small sample the AAC streams are consistent for the various country accounts, so it's probably safe to assume the region doesn't make much difference, if any.

 

If you can get the ickstream/LMS platform working at least you should get most of the albums streaming 320 kpbs MP3, with some 'MidLoFi' 256 kbps MP3 ones (also seems to be proportionally less of these than the 96 kbps AAC ones).

[Cebolla]

2 hours ago, Fridolin said:

@jhwalker. It would be interesting, if Audirvana plays the AAC 96 kbps titles above with 320 kbps.

 

The 15-day trial version of Audirvana Plus is supposed to be full featured, so you could always test it for yourself:

https://audirvana.com/?page_id=3397

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a Mac to try it myself.

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, Fridolin said:

I have the Audirvana app installed now and have to say: WOW!

 

But the Tidal-affair gets even worse.
Not only have the bad quality albums only a bitrate of 96 kbps but also the sample rate is at 22.0 kHz! All that 96 kbps BadFi tracks show this behavior.

 

I think that's an absolute No-Go for a service that calls itself TIDAL HiFi.

 

Wow indeed - how could @jhwalker have got it so wrong?

 

Are you certain all the album tracks in @wklie's list are streaming 96kbps AAC at reduced sample rate of 22.0kHz with Audirvana Plus, using a TIDAL HiFi account?

Have you checked to see if that it's not due to some odd configuration setting in Audirvana that's causing this?

[Cebolla]

8 hours ago, wklie said:

I tried two versions of API and cannot get those MP3 320kbps streams, not even for the album in the Roon thread I checked 9 months ago.

 

Based on the various reported test results I'd conclude getting the AAC stream is normal, while getting MP3 is an exception, since Tidal documentation always refer to AAC instead of MP3 for lossy streaming:

http://tidal.com/lp/about/

 

If a device gets MP3 streams instead of the AAC streams the other devices get for the same account, then I speculate that the former device is using yet another different version of API, or Tidal server is (not) doing something for that device.

 

Many thanks for doing this, Peter.

 

Presumably, you no longer have the API version that you used 9 months ago and also the Lumin is using a different (latest?) API version.

 

Agreed - TIDAL's own documentaion and the majority of devices streaming AAC instead of MP3 makes it the norm. Interesting that you speculate that the TIDAL server may or may not be "doing something" for the device to stream MP3. That does imply that if it's not doing something for MP3, then MP3 must the source format and AAC is derived from it. This would make the majority of devices streaming audio in a lossy format derived from another lossy format - certainly making the non-ideal situation of those 'problem' albums even worse!

 

There is actually good evidence to support that the original formats of the 'problem' albums in TIDAL's catalogue are MP3 (and not AAC) - MP3 is the only format offered by TIDAL for purchase of those albums in the download store, eg:

Buy Jimmy Ponder by Jimmy Ponder on TIDAL
Buy Steel City Blues by Jimmy Ponder on TIDAL

Buy Almost Always Never by Joanne Shaw on TIDAL
Buy Diamonds In The Dirt by Joanne Shaw on TIDAL
Buy White Sugar by Joanne Shaw on TIDAL

Buy A New Day Yesterday by Joe Bonamassa on TIDAL
Buy Had To Cry Today by Joe Bonamassa on TIDAL
Buy So It's Like That by Joe Bonamassa on TIDAL
Buy Sloe Gin by Joe Bonamassa on TIDAL

Buy Núcleo by José Luis Gutiérrez Trio on TIDAL

 

BTW, the 'good' albums that are streaming in a lossless format from a TIDAL HiFi account are available in both FLAC and MP3 downloads, eg:

Buy MEMORIES DON'T DIE by Tony Lanez on TIDAL

 

John

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, jcn3 said:

FYI -- I tried Joe Bonamassa | Had to Cry on my system -- Roon Rock streaming to a NUC running Win10 -- and the album streamed at 320kpbs AAC.  First time I've seen something not stream losslessly on Tidal (I listen to mostly classical and jazz).

 

That's very interesting, first time an album that was reported as streaming 96kbps AAC is seen streaming 320kbps AAC.

Plus it looks like Roon is now also using a TIDAL API that's providing AAC streams for the 'problem' albums using a TIDAL HiFi account; it was reported to be providing MP3 streams ~ 9 months ago. Are you certain it's AAC and not MP3?

 

Can you test the rest of the albums with Roon in the list, especially those reported as streaming 96kbps AAC too, for completeness?

 

Thanks.

[Cebolla]

4 hours ago, Fridolin said:

Only those 96 kbps AAC titles have the 22.0 kHz sample rate.

Those in the list above and hundreds of others that i have in my playlists.

 

The other "LoFis" are at AAC 320 kbps, 44.1 kHz.

The "HiFis" are Flac in higher bit- and sample rates - that's ok.

 

Ok, so Audirvana Plus streams exactly the same AAC bitrates as reported for majority (Aries, BubbleUPnP, Lumin, couple of TIDAL API versions, etc) for those albums in the list and the only difference is Audirvana streaming with 22.0kHz sample rate for the 96kbps AAC albums.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Fridolin said:

I did just install the Audirvana app without changing any settings.

So i think the settings are ok - at least i would not know yet what to alter.

 

Does anyone else use Tidal via Audirvana?

 

May be @jhwalker can do a 'proper' test on the list with his Audirvana this time and report back .

 

 

I did a quick online search and found this post on the Steve Hoffman forums, confirming the 22.0kHz sample rate for 96kbps AAC albums using Audirvana Plus with a TIDAL HiFi account:

Tidal - not all "HiFi" music is Lossless

 

"I'm new to Tidal. Most of what I've listen to sounds really good and I like the service! However, I've found a number of titles (mostly older releases) stream at a lowly 96kbps AAC. I'm streaming with Audirvana plus 3 set to "HiFi/Master Lossless FLAC". Most titles come in at FLAC 16/44.100 but look at these:

 

A Tribute to John Hartford - Live from Mountain Stage - 96 kbps 16/22.0 kHz
Preservation Hall Jazz Band - New Orleans Preservation, Vol 1 -96 kbps 16/22.0 kHz

 

Perhaps that is all the labels supplied Tidal with..... disappointing."

 

[Cebolla]

On 3/3/2018 at 4:02 PM, wklie said:

 

The old API still works, so I redid the test using the same API, the same type of Tidal HiFi US account, the same Lumin product, and seemingly (*) the same album: 9 months ago I got MP3, now I get AAC.

 

(*) - I cannot be sure it is exactly the same album.  If a different encoding of the same album with the same cover art and tracks replaced the one I tested 9 months ago, I would not know.

 

So it looks like whether MP3 or AAC is provided, is determined by the TIDAL server doing something (or not) depending on the specific connecting client device, rather than it having anything to do with the API version being used by the client device.

 

In all cases that I've tried so far with the ickStream/LMS platform (for Squeezebox type streamers), the TIDAL server always provides MP3 streams instead of the AAC streams reported for all the other devices, including that album you mentioned testing 9 months ago. I too cannot find more than one current version of the same album on TIDAL.

[Cebolla]

On 3/3/2018 at 5:25 PM, jcn3 said:

 

@Cebolla, I tested the above. Using Roon Rock going to NUC with Win10 running Roon Bridge.

 

* all of the files listed as 320kbps played as AAC 16/44.1k

* all of the files listed as 96kbps played as AAC 16/22k

 

I think my math was off originally.

 

 

Ok, so it looks like Roon too streams AAC now instead of MP3 metioned 9 months ago.

[Cebolla]

On 3/5/2018 at 4:37 AM, rodrigaj said:

@wklie Thank you for clarifying. Having multiple versions of the same album is part of the frustration of dealing with Tidal, especially as the only way to tell which version you are dealing with is by playing it. At least with Masters, the little symbol is visible in the library.

If you look at the info povided by TIDAL, you do get the indication that the Robert Silverman | Starry, Starry Night albums don't all have the same release date, plus their individual track times & total running times are different:

https://listen.tidal.com/album/8936899 (96kbps 44.1kHz AAC+) - Released 2006-02-14, Length 2:10:53

https://listen.tidal.com/album/12686392 (16/44.1kHz FLAC) - Released 2006-02-14, Length 2:09:12

https://listen.tidal.com/album/61738233 (16/44.1kHz FLAC) - Released 2005-11-22, Length 2:10:11

I don't think it's a coincidence that the first album version being provided as lossy AAC audio track streams is only available also as a lossy (but for some reason, MP3) download for purchase in the TIDAL store and that the other two streaming versions are available for purchase as lossless FLAC downloads:
https://tidal.com/store/album/8936899
https://tidal.com/store/album/12686392
https://tidal.com/store/album/61738233

 

Agree, that it's a bit of a chore to check though - TIDAL certainly doesn't make it simple!

 

 

 

On 3/5/2018 at 4:37 AM, rodrigaj said:

Thank you also for clarifying the display on Lumin App. Interesting that my renderer (Bridge II) reports Apple Lossless / 16b /96Kbps to Lumin App and the DSD display reports UNK / PCM 44.1K / 24 b. Presumably both should be getting the same information. 

 

Perhaps the PSA Bridge II renderer doesn't support the (lossy) 96kbps AAC, or more precisely the 96kbps HE-AAC (v1) (aka AAC+, aka AACPlus), streamed version of the album. Hence, the UNK (for 'unknown', presumably) in the PSA Bridge II/DSDAC's display and is making a confused incorrect guess at it being Apple Lossless (ALAC), fed back to the Lumin app

 

ALAC & AAC encoded audio data, though totally different, are typically accommodated in the same type of container file, usually with the .m4a suffix.

[Cebolla]

On 3/5/2018 at 9:25 AM, wklie said:

 

For the 22kHz vs 44.1kHz sample rate of Tidal 96kbps AAC stream issue, does Audirvana support HE-AAC SBR?  @damien78

 

7 hours ago, wklie said:

On 3/5/2018 at 10:02 AM, Fridolin said:

I tested a typical AAC, 96 kbps, 16/22.0 khz example (Ottmar Liebert|La Semana|#3|Caballada) with the MusicScope app, that i normally use for testing HiRes files.

Please check Tidal desktop app instead of Audirvana.  Set Quality to Master.  Use Exclusive Mode if possible.

 

HE-AAC v1 has two sampling frequencies, one is for the HE-AAC SBR profile, the other is for the AAC-LC core profile and is typically at half the frequency of the HE-AAC SBR profile. This allows HE-AAC to be backwards compatible with decoders that only support AAC-LC and would explain why Audirvana may be decoding 96kbps 44.1kHz HE-AAC v1 at 22.0(5) kHz.

[Cebolla]

6 hours ago, Fridolin said:

I'm not versed in the different formats that are described here.

For me it is a real mess.

 

Sorry, I'll try to simplify the description of the TIDAL AAC stream formats wrt Audirvana:

• AAC+ 96kbps 44.1kHz - Audirvana appears not to support AAC+. However, Audirvana does support (regular) AAC, so it is able to decode the AAC 96kbps 22.05kHz core part of the AAC+ 96kbps 44.1kHz stream;

• AAC 320kbs 44.1kHz - Audirvana supports this, so decodes it as normal;

Have you tried Musicscope on the TIDAL Desktop app streaming the AAC+ 96kbps 44.1kHz albums, as @wklie suggested in his last post? You should see activity beyond 10-11kHz (22 kHz /2), unlike with Audirvana.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Fridolin said:

Tried to get order to my playlist chaos and sorted out all the AAC 96kbps 22.0 kHz albums with the help of Audirvana. I put them in separate playlists in order to investigate further.

 

The small rest of albums that play with AAC 320 kbps 44.1 kHz in Audirvana stay in another playlist.

 

But to complete the confusion, my Auralic Aries Mini doesn't play them all in AAC 320 kbps 44.1 kHz. A bunch of them are displayed as AAC 96kbps 22.0 kHz again. In Audirvana the same albums all are displayed as AAC 320 kbps 44.1 kHz.

 

That's very interesting. Until now, the same AAC albums have been reported as having the same bitrates, regardless of the streaming device. Could you mention some, if not the whole list of those albums streaming as AAC 320kbps in Audirvana that are streaming as 96kbps in the Aries Mini?

[Cebolla]

TIDAL should most definitely not be providing the  HE-AAC 96kbps streams if you haven't asked explicitly for them, ie, via the LOW quality connection setting.

 

According to the OP it has only started happening recently, via the HIFI quality connection setting. In all cases the HE-AAC 96kbps streams have been found to have replaced regular AAC (ie, AAC-LC) 320kbps streams. The original AAC 320kbps streams (and their recent HE-AAC 96kbps replacements) are seemingly forced on the HiFi TIDAL account user, because TIDAL don't appear to have a lossless version of the source album tracks in their catalogue.

 

Certainly all of the AAC album track streams (so both HE-AAC 96kbps and AAC-LC 320kbps) that I've investigated thus far have their albums available for purchase in the TIDAL store only as lossy MP3 downloads. Albums that are not restricting the HiFi TIDAL account user to these AAC streams are available for purchase in the TIDAL store as both FLAC & MP3 downloads.

[Cebolla]

9 hours ago, Fridolin said:

 

Not only the HIFI quality connection is concerned.

 

I purposely changed my subscription to "TIDAl Premium" just to see if i could get better quality for these LoFi albums. But the effect only was that i got 320 kbps (for all HiFi FLAC files) and 96 kbps for the rest (as is the case with a HiFi subscription). I then immediately changed back to the HiFi subscription.

 

Indeed - I didn't want to mention that it also occurs with TIDAL Premium accounts, just in case it would confuse some as to the underlying problem, ie:

a substancial proportion of the lossy album collection in TIDAL's catalogue have recently been forced by TIDAL's online server to stream in pathetic 96kbps HE-ACC (more usually used by bandwidth challenged internet radio stations), instead of the expected and far greater quality (but of course still lossy) 320kbps AAC-LC.

 

This has been found with both TIDAL HiFi accounts (via the HIGH or HIFI or MASTERS streaming quality connection) and TIDAL Premium accounts (via the HIGH streaming quality connection), regardless of country of origin. Country of origin of the TIDAL account only appears to determine whether the user has access to a particular album in TIDAL's catalogue, be it lossy or lossless in origin.

 

The problem has also been found with all devices/platforms mentioned as tested thus far in this thread, with the exception of the ickstream/LMS platfrom (for Squeezebox type streamers) special case (see below).

 

 

There is also the related issue that a couple of devices/platforms, namely Roon & Lumin, were reported 9 months ago to have been streaming TIDAL's lossy albums in MP3 (either 320kbps or 256kbps) via the HIFI streaming quality connection, as opposed to the AAC format. However, this is no longer the case, with both Roon & Lumin both confirmed in this thread to be streaming TIDAL's lossy albums in AAC and therefore also subject to the 96kbps HE-AAC streaming issue.

 

I have speculated that the original format of the lossy albums in TIDAL's catalogue may well be MP3, given that MP3 is the only format available for purchase of the lossy albums as a download in the TIDAL store. This would imply that even the lossy 320kbps AAC streams would be compromised by having been derived from either 320kbps MP3 or 256kbps MP3.

 

However, I've found one platform that does still stream TIDAL's lossy albums in MP3, the majority with a bitrate of 320kbps & the rest 256kbps - the Logitech Media Center with the ickstream LMS plugin, used by Squeezebox type devices. It is therefore unaffected by the 64kbps HE-AAC problem.

 

 

[Cebolla]

You are assuming that the imposition of the low quality 96kbps HE-AAC streams is a deliberate act by TIDAL. There's also the possibility that there's some sort of bug in the system. It would explain the apparent random nature of the problem, where only some of an artist's lossy albums are affected, or, better still, where only some of the tracks of a lossy album have been affected.

 

Plus, why when an artist does have the same album also available in a lossless format, is that lossless album never affected when its lossy equivalent is affected?

 

Don't forget both the TIDAL provided software and some third party applications provide the following options (where appropriate) to allow the user to manually configure the quality of the stream provided by TIDAL's online server:

Masters - streams up to 24/48kHz FLAC or ALAC
Hi-Fi - streams up to 16/44.1kHz FLAC or ALAC
High - streams up to 320kbps AAC-LC
Standard - streams only 96kbps HE-AAC

 

So any Album track, be it originally lossless or lossy, can already be set to stream in TIDAL's so called Standard quality, ie, 96kbps HE-AAC - no need for TIDAL to employ an army of workers to downgrade the files!

[Cebolla]

On 3/7/2018 at 7:14 AM, Fridolin said:

Here is an example of the different behaviors (44 kHz vs. 22 kHz) of Audirvana and Aries Mini with the same title when playing "LoFi" streams.

 

By the way, the first title of the album plays with 320 kbps, the rest with 96 kbps only. Strange.

 

 

 

I have not been able to stream anything other 320 kbps AAC for the first track and 96kbps HE-AAC for the rest of the tracks, for all devices that I've tried with this album - so similar to Audirvana.

Well, all devices apart from the ickstream/LMS platform, of course - which streams all of the album's tracks as 320kbps MP3!

 

However, I did notice an odd thing when the UPnP streaming devices were used with the BubbleUPnP Android app. The device's own display indicated receiving as mentioned above, but the BubbleUPnP Android app indicated 96kbps AAC for all tracks, including the first. Stranger still, the BubbleUPnP app's display momentarily displayed 320kbps AAC for the first track when it started playing it, but then very quickly changed to display 96kbps AAC as the track carried on playing.

 

Could the Aries Mini and its Lightning DS controller app be doing the same thing - so for the first track, theAries Mini is streaming 320 kbps AAC, but its controller app is incorrectly displaying 96kbps AAC?

 

Also, do you have any other examples of albums where the Aries Mini's controller app displays 96kbps AAC instead of the 320kbps AAC displayed by Audirvana?

[Cebolla]

On 3/7/2018 at 11:10 AM, wklie said:

For this album, I found an additional version that is lossless FLAC for all tracks using a Tidal HiFi US account.

 

On 3/7/2018 at 11:34 AM, Fridolin said:

Here in Germany the FLAC version is missing. The LoFi version is the only one.

 

UK account only has the lossy version too.

 

@wklie, did you try the lossy version (https://listen.tidal.com/album/15563242 , Released 1985-01-01, Length 44:05)  with the Lumin and notice the same difference with the first track?

[Cebolla]

14 hours ago, Fridolin said:

The first title (Call it Democracy) plays with AAC 320 kbps from begin to end on the Aries Mini.

The next title and all the rest of the album are in 96 kbps however.

 

Ok, looks like I  misinterpreted your post. So both the Aries Mini & Audirvana are in fact playing 320kbps for the first track and 96kbps for the rest of the tracks - therefore no difference here.

 

Hence, the only difference between the Aries Mini and Audirvana is Audirvana's problem of not supporting AACplus. Therefore Audirvana decodes TIDAL's 96kbps 44.1kHz AACplus track streams as if they were standard AAC, so produces the fallback 22.05kHz sample rate, instead of the full 44.1kHz that the AACplus supporting Aries Mini produces.

 

No new news here, after all!

 

 

I thought in that post you were referring to the 'LoFi' album as an example of those ones that you mentioned in your earlier post:

On 3/6/2018 at 1:30 PM, Fridolin said:

But to complete the confusion, my Auralic Aries Mini doesn't play them all in AAC 320 kbps 44.1 kHz. A bunch of them are displayed as AAC 96kbps 22.0 kHz again. In Audirvana the same albums all are displayed as AAC 320 kbps 44.1 kHz.

 

I understood this to mean that for some 'LoFi' albums the Aries Mini is displaying 96kbps instead of the 320kbps that Audirvana is displaying for the same album tracks. I assumed the "22.0 kHz" was a typo & you actually meant  to write 44.1 kHz - since (unlike Audirvana), the Aries Mini supports AACplus, so shouldn't be displaying 22.0 kHz for the 96 kbps streams.

Did I understand this correctly? If so, can you give us some examples of those albums (as I asked for earlier)?