Blue or red pill?

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, manisandher said:

Invitation for @mansr

 

Come up to my place (Leamington Spa, UK). I'll pay for your fuel or train ticket.

 

Refuse (blue pill) and continue believing whatever you want to believe.

 

Accept (red pill) and I'll show you how deep the digital audio rabbit hole goes.

 

Remember: all I'm offering is the truth.

 

Mani.

 

 That is the only way to make most E.E's change their minds in some areas.. A DIRECT Demonstration.

It took a direct demonstration to change the minds of 2 Sydney Au. E.E.s that I know personally.

 

[sandyk]

Mani

 Please check your PMs

Alex

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, mansr said:

I'll bring some recording equipment.

 

 It's highly unlikely that any of the differences that may be heard in a direct demo, will still remain after re-recording,

although they may remain to some extent if burned to a high quality CD-R from their existing locations.

[sandyk]

42 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

While interesting, whether or not he can hear differences is irrelevant if you can prove to him that you can hear differences.

 

 But nowhere near as satyisfying !

In my case I also won a 12yo bottle of Scotch from my E.E. friend.

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, mansr said:

I want to capture the digital output of at least one supposedly different-sounding pair. Is there any reason for not running the DAC outputs into the ADC and amps at the same time?

 

There should be nothing different done that may possibly degrade the results , UNTIL there are clear results either way, then go for it ! 

I have tried several times previously to capture the results via a 24/96 recorder and the extra A/D conversion has resulted in both versions sounding virtually identical again, but not quite as good sounding as the original.

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Ok, just want to make sure that the same player software is used, with the same settings, when doing A/B comparisons -- there's a lot a player can do to the bits before these are sent out to the DAC, even if the source files are exactly the same.

 

Not if both comparison files are saved to, AND played back from the same storage device, whether HDD,SSD,USB memory  OR even as adjoining tracks on a CD-R.

Mansr will find no differerences looking at DIGITAL files with identical checksums even if hears differences himself !!!

[sandyk]

9 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

You’re missing my point.. Playing the same exact file using two different players or the same player with different settings can easily invalidate the test. You’re then comparing two players and their internal processing and not two storage devices. 

 

That’s why capturing the digital output to the DAC is critical to ensure that the same digital samples are being sent to it in both cases, as Mansr already said he’ll do.

 

Why would you complicate matters by using different players or different settings when you wish to rule out other influences ?

Mansr will NOT find any differences between DIGITAL files with identical checksums even if he reports hearing differences under correctly performed DBT conditions !

[sandyk]

52 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

Flipper and his Cetacean buddies differ with this assertion!!

Flipper was female.The part was played by 5 female dolphins.

[sandyk]

16 hours ago, Spacehound said:

It doesn't really matter. Similar things have  been tried often before. Those who believe in myth and magic will continue to do so  whatever the test result because the methods, including any listening tests, blind or not,  are "faulty" as they don't coincide with their beliefs.

 A typically arrogant reply from an E.E. who appears to think that E.E.s are GODs, and infallible !

 This belief system applies just as much to E.E.s as much as Audiophiles, whenever their deeply ingrained beliefs are questioned.

 Just a reminder that without Subjective reports, there would be no need for Objective measurements, and no incentive to further improve an electronic product other than on how attractive and easy to use it is , as well as the cost of the product .

 (Enter the " Bean Counters" )

 Add to that, product lifetime issues built into designs, so that they had a limited lifetime, so that the public would keep periodically buying replacements. This appears to be the modern way, and not how it used to be with products that often  kept working as designed for 30 years or more, with perhaps simple component replacements such as noisy volume controls.

Even the main large filter capacitors in many designs would last considerably longer if proper attention was paid by the designer to heat issues due to component placement and good ventilation.

A good example of that, was electrolytic filter capacitors too close to vacuum tubes etc.

[sandyk]

31 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

BTW: What does  your reply have to do with what I posted?

 

 Are you so arrogant that you are unable to see why I posted the reply that I did  ?.

 

 Neither does anything I posted in that reply have anything to do with M.C. either, yet you dragged him into it again.

It was aimed purely at arrogant E.Es like yourself who treat people who make reports that they don't agree with ,as believing in "Myth and Magic" , even if they also happen to be fellow qualified E.E.s who post findings that you don't agree with ,and design electronic devices that you believe are a waste of time, just like you did in a reply to some Audiostream links recently.

You didn't have a good word to say about any of those gentlemen, despite their obvious qualifications in their respective areas, and vastly more experience in those areas than you have !

 

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

How many times have we heard, this is the greatest DAC, or best amp of the year, and not get any "oh wow, totally new level" to realize that a lot of this stuff is marketing hype.

 

 

 Perhaps just like the current fascination in C.A. with Streaming, where the quality of the streamed music is highly unlikely to  come close to that of a well optimised system at home using your own source material ?

[sandyk]

46 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

Why's that?

 

And don't forget that is  what the test is partly about.  And you aren't going. And if it goes 'against' you they don't know what they are doing.

 

I am glad I am not going. 

I have nothing against Mansr, who is highly experienced in general, but perhaps out of touch in a few areas with the general membership.

I certainly would have no interest in meeting an arrogant and pompous person like yourself.

However, I do admire Mani for setting up these tests. If I lived in the U.K. or the USA, I would have been more than happy to do the same,  as I have already done for a couple of E.E. friends and several other Sydney C.A. members.

In the case of one E.E. I wasn't even present when he used my files to successfully demonstrate the findings to an E.E. friend of his.

These tests will  have no resemblance to those that I already have had confirmed, so no definite conclusions can be drawn from the results obtained at your meeting, even in the unlikely event that Mani uses some of my material, as we are using very different equipment and software players.

The proposed tests are very different to those that I have done, where both versions are usually saved on the same storage medium,(including adjacent tracks on the same CD-R) and played as .wav files with the same checksums as the original files ripped from CD, or as downloaded in high resolution and converted back to .wav files from the supplied .flac files, or extracted from DVD-A as .wav files  in some cases.

Even when mine are played (or uploaded) from different storage mediums on the same PC, the files are played AND uploaded  from System Memory. There are no conversions to another format performed, or software manipulation.

[sandyk]

Just now, Spacehound said:

There ya go. You've decided already,  Before it's been done.

 

 Due to the nature of the proposed tests as proposed by Mani, it will not be possible to draw any definite conclusions, as there will be format conversions etc. performed. Nevertheless, the results are likely to be very interesting and worthy of further investigation.

  I have very little doubt though, based on previous experience with Mani, that he will identify differences, but whether mansr will also hear those differences is another question, as he has a high Expectation Bias that there will be no differences. 

 

Why am I not surprised that you can't be bothered going ?

 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Spacehound said:

And as Mani, totally unprompted,  bet mansr, it's MANI who has the expectation bias, not mansr. But of course that doesn't  fit your agenda.

 

 Expectation Bias works both ways !

 If somebody has a high Expectation that there will be no differences, then they are far less likely to hear differences, even when  there are differences..

A high Expectation  that you will hear differences, does not mean that you will hear verifiable differences under non sighted conditions. One reason could be that you aren't relaxed enough (stress) , and the other reason that there are none to hear !

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

What’s to stress about if you’re 100% certain you can hear the differences, you are listening in your own home, listening to your own system and music of your choosing? This is the case in this test, is it not?

Performing on command like a trained seal is very different to relaxed listening. Lengthy sessions demanded as proof , in my case raise my BP which degrades my hearing due mainly to an Acoustic Neuroma pressing on my right ear canal.
 After a large number of repeats, everything may start to sound the same, despite there being actual differences.
 As others have also reported , they may even cause a splitting headache.
 M.C. also made a remark about the stress factor .
 "A very experienced and fearless pair of ears who can be subjected to such tests and not worry in the slightest." 

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, Spacehound said:

Precisely.

 

But at first he accidentally said that the bias only happened to those he disagreed with.

 

When I later said that he had got the person he disagreed with  and the person he agreed with backwards  he changed his mind and said bias works both ways 

 

 Bullshit !

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

If not knowing which component is playing induces so much stress that the 'not subtle' differences become too subtle to distinguish, then perhaps one should pick another hobby.

 

 All of our testing at the various GTGs in Sydney are done this way, but we don't do the huge numbers of repeats that some sceptics would demand. It's a HOBBY, not a bloody report to some Authority !

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, adamdea said:

Is there any reason why we aren't testings whether two identical files on the same nas sound different while we are at it? Some people may find this may seem less intuitively plausible than the nas/computer thing but I think they are narrow-minded.

adamdea 

Mac or Windows user ?

 

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, manisandher said:

The A/B/X will likely never prove conclusive:

- if I pass and the digital captures show no difference, the die-hard objectivists will likely say the captures must be flawed

- if I pass and the digital captures do show a difference, I will say the captures must be flawed

- if I fail, irrespective of what the captures show, the die-hard subjectivists will likely say the A/B/X must be the wrong tool

 

 Damned if you do, and damned if you don't ?

 

 If you succeed, the only person that you MAY convince is mansr, in which case I feel sure that he will do further investigations.

I presume that is your main objective ?

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

And that's why Mans is such a good test subject for this: he'll be curious enough to dig in deeply to find the reason for audible differences (if any), and he'll collect enough data and evidence so that others could help him, right, Mans?

 

 

 If mansr does investigate further, I would be more than happy to provide suitable comparison .wav files on USB memory for him.

[sandyk]

9 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

If that is a true quote, I would guess that Cooky no longer believes that insanity.

She has on more than one occasion said something that she later deviated from, and she is not someone i would ever quote.

 

 Yes it does. Zipping,TX, RX and Unzipping again does cause some degradation, similar to what Mani is now reporting.

This is also why she provides files as UNCOMPRESSED Zips, after a series of tests with C.A. member Roch (elcorso)

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Usually ambient noise levels are a good bit lower at night.  Simple physics without involving the more complex human brain into the matter.  

 Add to that, the A.C. mains supply powering all your devices is normally far less polluted late at night too.

[sandyk]

44 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Really, all four...or only if you do all four....

i suppose it matters the order you do it in too...lol

haha..not even worthy of a debate

 

Perhaps you should take that break that you promised everyone after all ?

Don't be a smart ass. Of course you would need to do it in that order when sending an uncompressed Zip to somebody else.

[sandyk]

57 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

ok, so how would bit identical files alter current flow?

 

or are you not persuaded that they sound different, or can sound different?

 

 Peter, Mani and acg (Anthony) are already on record in C.A. threads as hearing differences between uploaded .wav files with identical .md5 checksums.

[sandyk]

14 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

but which of the four causes the degradation? or do you think any of the four causes the degradation.  My question was serious, in what do you think actually causes the degradation....

 Your previous reply came across as mocking, not serious !

 Why not just wait until mani and mansr have completed their testing, and then analyse the results if they confirm what Mani is reporting ?