Audio Blind Testing

[marce]

17 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Things like interconnect cable differences will always fail in DBT - that's because the time factor aspect is never part of the test - first rule of science: always make sure you are really testing what you think you are attempting to verify, rather than doing a show off demo of the fact that you can play "scientist in a lab coat".

 

Cabling behaviour varies over time - because of material considerations - there are all sorts of subtleties involved here, which matter when the best in reproduction is being aimed for. Claiming that this sort of thing doesn't exist, "because it shouldn't !! ", is not very helpful ...

Provide some evidence of what you claim, we can easily measure and show difference is cables that are so low to be inaudible, all cables are different to an extent. It is whether this difference is audible, and mostly it isn't, unless the cable is either bad or designed to sound different!

[marce]

19 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 When Marc gets his act together, he really should try a decent low noise Linear PSU for his antiquated (In SQ terms) beloved SBT ! He may then start to get a bit more adventurous and discover that his theoretical based dogmatic assertions on what is, and isn't audible, aren't always correct, as it's resolving abilities further improve.

I don't doubt that Marc is a whiz in the area he works in, but you can't always directly transfer all of this to other fields such as Audio, or even Digital Video for that matter, which also includes Audio.

Er don't forget I have been doing this for a for last 30 odd years, that is audio systems and before that an amateur musician playing in Brass bands when I was a kid, bass in various bands when a teenager and older.

Worked on audio and video over the years, don't forget we have professional audio companies on our books.

So years of listening and learning, the biggest thing I learned was don't trust your perceptions...

[marce]

10 hours ago, sandyk said:

  Marc

Yet you are still using an antiquated SBT with a SMPS ?

Are you afraid that you may learn something that unsettles you if you power it with a decent Linear PSU  or a low noise SMPS with the earth side of it's supply earthed ?

There is quite possibly another U.K. member who is willing to loan you a more suitable PSU to try with that mediocre SQ device.

Yes, I have heard a couple of SBTs owned by a friend who worked in I.T. , both before, and after modifications and a better PSU which did result in a very worthwhile improvement. The unmodified SBTs also sounded  a little lacking when compared with another I.T. friend's (Greg Erskine) Transporter which is still easily outperformed by more modern DACs.

 

Alex

Yes Alex,

for two reasons, one  I am renovating a old house and most of my stuff is in boxes and two, since July 2015 my focus has been on fighting the big C. So when I move and get my listening room set up correctly I will have the space to listen properly and assess gear properly. Untill then I have only my headphones and whatever I can plug them in...

What I have found is that even though some sources are lacking a bit in overall sound quality (Spotify) I am enjoying the music...

[marce]

On 09/01/2018 at 7:19 PM, Albrecht said:

Well if it's years of comparing lo-fi, consumer products to each other, - then you're likely missing the point. And of course, (not sure if you've explained anywhere what you mean be perceptions. In fact, I think that everyone would do better to take a step back and THINK before they knee-jerk the tired cliche of our hearing ability sucks and cannot be trusted). If one is engaged in comparative listening tests with plenty of controls, - one comes to an understanding fairly quickly that whole systems vary significantly in performance.

Yawn, yawn yawn... You and GUTB could be twins.... Patronising.

No more to be said from me, sick of the patronising attitude of some, who presume because of what kit you have now means you've listened to lo-fo instead of high end which is more often than not not true fidelity, to many systems voiced... LOL

[marce]

23 hours ago, sandyk said:

Hi Marc

 Seems like you have the right priorities already.

The main thing is that you are enjoying the music .

All the best for the future.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Cheers and as I have said when we move I have my own Man cave for the first time, so I will get the room treated and set everything up and will be upgrading... To what I don't know yet, so many options so many opinions...

[marce]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

@sandyk,

 

DBT is a tool of psychologists. The proponents are  basically a bunch of engineers practicing psychology without a license when they try to advocate it for everything.  You can't persuade/win an argument with this cult by countering them with your own beliefs. Just respect them in areas where they demonstrate technical expertise and shun the discussion when they try to proselytize  cult beliefs. There are "Borg among us" who think art is only numbers.

LOL

DBT is another tool available to us, to help determine sound differences without the bias of sight, that's all... you have to question your beliefs and test whether they hold any substance.

As stated above audio reproduction is engineering...

[marce]

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 What point is there for DBT with Audio when MANY (most ?)  refuse to accept the results because they don't go the way they expected them to ? 

You are also one of those people .

No I am not.

[marce]

On 21/01/2018 at 3:23 AM, fas42 said:

 

Of course, the real answer is that data compression, excessive or otherwise, is not necessary, as bandwith and storage get cheaper and cheaper - ummm, we'll leave NBN out of this! - but habits die hard ... the technical crowd get excited by the fact that they can do something, and therefore, do it - bugger the consumer!!

!

[marce]

9 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

But, there's an art to getting the engineering right for audio ... why? Because there aren't any textbooks with a full recipe for making it happen ... something for the future ...

Wrong.

[marce]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Recommendation?

The "Art of Electronics" is a good place to start...

[marce]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

  In which case you must believe that the series of 6 separate (by date) DBTs that I refer to, were either not correctly performed, or that around 8 repeats per session , all with positive results is inadequate ?

 What are the odds against results such as those being false results or not meaning anything ?

We have an agreement from years ago that we will not discuss this subject

[marce]

19 minutes ago, adamdea said:

The problem with all of this is simply that it does not answer the question hobbyists ask. That question is roughly

-please recommend me a box (transport/dac/amp/whatever) which costs about $x (varies) which will give me what I want, namely the ability to listen to kind of blue/patricia barber/whatever again and get the spooky sense that I am hearing new things. 

If the answer is,

the limits of transparency have been reached with transports/dacs/amps/whatever -you are basically hearing what you can from this recording and the variations in your listening experience are largely down to other inputs.

then that is just not the answer required. Try again. 

...and of course believing (that a different box can make Patircia Barber sound like she is in the room) might just mean that it does (I bought a new box and it sounded as though Patricia Barber was in the room). 

So which argument wins?

My box lets me have Patricia Barber and her piano in the room...

[marce]

8 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Ummm, my copy is worn out, just about - I 'pinched' the earlier edition from the library, because I couldn't bear not having access to it ... .

 

Note, the magic word "Art" in the title - the content is all about being completely pragmatic in the exercise of designing, and I learnt a lot about the "usefulness" of spec sheets.

 

However, it told me nothing about how to ensure audio systems work well enough to get the SQ I chase - what it did do was give me plenty of clues on how to approach thinking about circuits - and how to take nothing for granted, .

Its not a magic word, use a dictionary it definition in this usage is listed.

[marce]

One would hope in the obsessive world of Audiophiles, that getting that basic thing right would be one of the first ports of call...