Innuos Zenith SE MkII

[austinpop]

30 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

I feel like I'm running the risk of monopolising this thread but! 

 

So I just attended the Bristol show (one of the UKs longest running [30± years] and bigger hifi shows). Was good and I'll post some thoughts on the general forum. But for this thread:

 

I had the pleasure of meeting Nuno Vitorino and Anthony (didn't catch surname) of Innuos. Both were great and very helpful.

 

Nuno was very generous and gave me 30 mins of his time on what's clearly a very busy weekend for them. Lovely chap and clearly very knowledgeable. Whilst chatting he mentioned that he's discussed aspects with Roy and Rajiv and it was humbling to be in such hallowed company 

 

Amongst other things he said that people assume the Sean Jacobs power supply is the main reason for the SEs stellar SQ but its also just attention to detail. I won't do his description justice but it included:

 

*not using connectors and having everything painstakingly soldered using high quality (silver I think he said) solder.

 

*The quality and positioning of the three feet. One under the PSU, one under the SSD. And one, er, somewhere else. (sorry I forget!) 

 

*Vibration dampening throughout but including the SSD. 

 

*The BIOS kernel and software in general. He remarked that in his opinion some people spend too much attention to hardware and not enough on software. 

 

I asked whether they had any plans for a successor to the SE given its limited 100 unit production run and the rave reviews. He smiled and asked me what I thought. But wouldn't be drawn further other than saying that they were "always innovating" and were looking into both trickle down of technology into a potential in-between the MKII & SE model,  as well as whether the bar could be raised on the SE. Watch this space I guess. 

 

Finally, I asked whether they had any plans to close the gap between the LMS players SQ and the Roon servers SQ but it seems that this would require more collaboration with Roon. Reading between the lines I think SE & MKII owners would need to pressure Roon to work on this. 

 

Anyway - Boulder, Colorado is on my list sometime to meet the PS Audio guys. Meeting Nuno and Anthony today was an unexpected surprise and has made my day! 

 

Over and out - Alan in Bristol! 

 

 

How funny that I was writing my post while this one came in. It's great you got to meet and hang out with Nuno. 

 

I am looking forward to meeting him and other manufacturers at Axpona in April.

[austinpop]

@BigAlMc and others who want to try this...

 

I can't remember if you use Roon or LMS, but in either case, try this experiment for yourself.

 

Baseline: server (LMS/Roon) on SE, music on local SSD

Experiment 1: server on SE, music on network - say a NAS, or just on a network share on some remote computer in your house

Experiment 2: server on a remote computer (no optimizations necessary) on network, music on network.

 

Listen and report back how much, subjectively, better the baseline sounds compared to experiments 1 and 2.

[austinpop]

44 minutes ago, jenjoh said:

On the “backup” USB port I have a usb stick with roon backup on. In roon, I am not able to see this he.. what can I do to see this in roon and get my backup?

 

By default, Innuos have locked out all filesystems but the Music folder from the Roon server. They can easily unlock it, if you can convince them you know what you're doing. Open a support ticket with them, and request it. They will send you a link for someone to remote connect to your system and "unlock" the filesystem. That should enable you to select your USB drive as a backup location.

 

I just use a network share as a backup target. Network shares are not locked.

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, jenjoh said:

So by default, you Are not able to use a usb harddrive:) now... that is stu.......

 

ok, I will contact support and Ask them to open this up... Thanks for tip:)

 

Don't shoot the messenger! 

[austinpop]

4 minutes ago, jenjoh said:

So by default, you Are not able to use a usb harddrive:) now... that is stu.......

 

ok, I will contact support and Ask them to open this up... Thanks for tip:)

 

See my earlier post: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/38110-innuos-zenith-se-mkii/?do=findComment&comment=774686

 

[austinpop]

Sounds like the same USB handshake issue as with my Codex. 

 

Innuos like to point the finger at the DAC/DDC, and keep pushing the iPurifier2 as the panacea, but I don't really care for this attitude. These same DACs and DDCs work fine with other Linux endpoints like Sonore and SOtM.

 

I sympathize that they are stuck with their choice of USB controller, and have not found a way to fix it using the existing device driver. But I prefer honesty to finger-pointing. It takes two to handshake!

[austinpop]

Now I’ll have something more to discuss with Nuno et al. at AXPONA!  I didn’t see anything about improving clocks, but we’ll see.

[austinpop]

I shudder to think of the cost.

 

Maybe cheaper to get SOtM will mod our SE's!

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, mozes said:

It pays off to build your own server, you can upgrade it anytime the way you want to.

 

Yeah the issue is PSUs. Factor in 8 rails of SR-7 quality, and that’s probably $8k right there.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, simorag said:

Hello everybody! I just got a second hand ZENith MkII SE, which I am going to use with a Chord DAVE (ISO Regen + LPS-1 + Phasure Lush USB cable) to drive my Abyss Phi headphones.

 

I am finalizing the upload and clean-up of my music library, and all is going on quite smoothly so far. I'll be playing local files exclusively for now, so no streaming involved.

 

I will be using an android smartphone or a Surface Pro 3 as a remote, so I have purchased both OrangeSqueeze and Squeeze Remote, but I find both not really providing a great user experience in terms of GUI.

 

Therefore I am considering to try Roon (a good way to splurge another 500USD :-)).

 

Before pulling the trigger on Roon, I wanted to check with you more experienced users a couple of things:

 

1. anybody checked if Roon 1.5 is closing the gap in terms of sound quality compared to the squeezebox player?

2. is the SE as Roon Core able to take advantage of Roon DSP such as parametric equalization?

 

Thank you in advance,

Simone

 

 

3 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi Simone, 

 

Congrats on your SE! 

 

My two cents FWIW is that SQ doesn't seem too high on Roons priorities. So I'm answer to 1. no, the LMS player still sounds better. That said I still use Roon for most of my listening. Tho it's kinda like having a jaguar parked whilst you drive your Toyota because you prefer the SatNav in the Toyota! 

 

That's the tradeoff tho. Better GUI / UX vs better SQ. 

 

Given the LMS player plays from memory and Roon cannot, then for the SE at least this gap isn't likely to close that much. 

 

For 2. Roon on the SE can handle upsampling to DSD128 with ease and probably the DSP you refer to. But I doubt it could do more demanding like DSD512. 

 

I'd ask Roon for a 30 day trial before splashing the 500 tho. Make your mind up from there after comparing the two directly. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

I’ll echo Alan’s comments. While the internal Squeezelite player still sounds better, I usually listen via Roon.

 

Oh I always think to myself, while browsing in Roon... I should remember to switch over to internal before actually listening, but then I always forget.

 

i really wish we didn’t have this dilemma, and that Innuos could close the gap.

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, str-1 said:

Just thinking about this upgrade option a bit more, what would it be likely to do that  the SR-4 powered tX-USBultra I am currently using with my Zenith SE isn’t already doing?

 

Functionally, I think they are similar. Architecturally, there are 2 differences:

1. Clocking design
   • the tX-U uses the sCLK-EX frequency synthesizer board to generate the required frequency (24 or 48MHz) for the USB controller. Further SQ comes from using a 10MHz reference clock (Ref10 or OCX10) to "discipline" the sCLK-EX board. This topology requires BNC connectors, cables, and a clock chain (reference clock > sCLK-EX). Thus, the ultra-low-phase noise OCXO clock (the Ref10/OCX10) is distant from the target circuit - i.e. the USB controller.
   • the hypothetical SE USB add-on would have an OCXO fixed frequency (I presume) oscillator chip within mm of the USB controller circuit. What it lacks in quality (phase noise specs) relative to a Ref 10, perhaps it makes up due to the adjacency. This is the $64k question!
2. PSU design
   • the SR-4 PSU is outboard, and even with a silver cable, must traverse one XLR connector, one barrel connector, and some length of cable, all of which add impedance. The advantage here is that Paul Hynes's PSUs are world class.
   • the SE USB unit would have a builtin PSU from Sean Jacobs. Its advantage would be its direct attachment - again, a few mm - to the circuit. This should lower the impedance. But it's not a Paul Hynes.

In both cases, there are pros and cons, and tradeoffs. We won't know which sounds better until the Innuos SE USB add-on is available. Meanwhile, as someone who has the tX-U, SR-4, and Ref-10, I don't feel deprived at all!

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, flummoxe said:

 

Good evening Austinpop,

 

You mentioned a USB add-on for the SE. This is new to me so do you have any further information?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

This is what Nuno told me in person at AXPONA. Also confirmed at around 3:45 on this video:

 

 

[austinpop]

Just a quick heads up to fellow Zenith SE owners. If you're like me, where you're committed to Roon, but have noticed that the internal squeezelite player sounds better, Innuos may have found a solution, where we can have our cake and eat it too.

 

Nuno had me test an experimental build on my system, where the squeezelite (internal player) daemon has been modified to work as a Roon endpoint. So basically, in Roon, you select the Squeezelite (internal) player as the target endpoint!

 

Here is what I learned from my listening experience:

1. The SQ of the squeezelite player from Roon was identical, or as good as, the normal mode of LMS/iPeng. So that is good.
2. Since Squeezelite is supposed to be able to handle up to 24/384 (as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeezelite), there is a puzzling 192 limit in the Roon device setup. This still needs to be investigated. For me - I do have some DXD, and DSD128 content that I do not want to play downsampled. But it's not a showstopper. I can always switch back for these albums.
3. Playback is not totally glitch free. Occasionally - it happened to me every few minutes - the stream will abruptly stop. If I hit play again, it will resume fine. I am guessing it is some fragility in the LMS emulation in Roon, but who knows. Again, not a show stopper.
4. One clear advantage this mode (Roon->squeezelite) has over the iPeng/LMS approach is that you can stream MQA from Tidal no problem. I was able to set the Squeezebox device properties in Roon for MQA to "Decoder and Renderer," and the MQA stream passed through perfectly to the Mytek DAC. The outdated Tidal plugin in LMS only allows 16/44.1, so it messes up MQA.

Innuos still have to come up with user controls (toggles in the Server Integration UI) to enable this, but I've enthusiastically recommended to Nuno that they deliver this as soon as feasible. 

[austinpop]

13 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Quick question to make sure I've got it. The above model involves the SE acting as both Roon Core and LMS endpoint at the same time right? Not just the SE LMS player acting as Roon endpoint for an external Roon Core.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

Yes, that’s correct, although I suppose it would work for an external Core too.

[austinpop]

Yeah you can make it work. 

 

The main thing I don't like is that Innuos locks the Roon music storage location to just the Music folder, whose full path in the OS is /storage/music. No other local destination is selectable. Because of this lock, you can't even select a folder within Music as your Roon storage location - it has to be Music, and nothing else.

 

I found this awkward, but it doesn't mean you can't make it work. 

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi @austinpop & @nvitorino

 

Hope both you gents are well.

 

Any update on this one? Is it proceeding and if so any thoughts on timeline?

 

I'd love to get Roon SQ up to the same lofty heights the SE manages via the LMS player.

 

Many Thanks,

Alan

 

Last I heard, Nuno said some time in August...

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, baconbrain said:

I have a quick question regarding accessing music files which are stored on a separate NAS via the SE. 

 

In the user manual the following is stated: "Note that albums which are currently on a NAS will be shown in your music library and can be played back through the USB output, but can not be edited nor be accessed through UPnP."

 

The inability to edit makes sense but the inability to access through UPnP seems a bit strange. Does this mean that one cannot stream NAS based files to a UPnP DAC / Player connected to the respective Ethernet port of the SE?

 

 

Hmm, that is confusing. I use Roon, so have not ever tried the UPnP renderer on the SE.

[austinpop]

9 minutes ago, FrankMA said:

Hello - Just received the MKII. I can log on to my.inuos.com but the Innuos does not appear as a drive on my MAC. Do I need to do anything special to see this?

 

This happens from time to time. Do the following:

1. Determine the IP address of your MkII. One way to do this is to go to my.innuos.com, select your server, then click on System. You'll see the IP address there. Say it's 192.168.0.150 (just an example)
2. In Finder, select Go from the menu, then "Connect to Server"
3. In the next screen, enter smb://192.168.0.150 in the Server address field, then hit Connect
4. Follow the prompts, and connect as Guest.

That should do it.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, FrankMA said:

Perfect. Thanks @austinpop. I suppose I'll need to use the Unsorted folder as directed by Innuos since the Music folder contains the grouping (Hi Res, etc). Connected as a Guest

Assuming I can also drop my Roon backup here temporarily.

 

 

Yes that should work.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Seems mostly metadata and library tools based. Real shame they didn't get that Roon cache memory enhancement working tho as that's the biggy on my wishlist.

 

Yes, I find this frustrating too.

 

Innuos have decided, for better or worse, to invest a good deal of energy on their own library management and metadata features. They seem to think that is of value to their customer base, which let's face it, is not the tweakers here on CA, but more the computer-phobic audiophiles getting into digital.

 

The irony is that their hardware improvements are very interesting to the cutting edge computer audiophile. I would like to see them put more effort into improving sound quality in general, and Roon in particular. If you care about this, make sure your voice is heard, and convey this to Nuno et al. I have had a chance to do this personally at AXPONA and RMAF, but I'm just one voice. You folks need to speak up too.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Interesting to read something about their co-founder Amélia Santos

 

https://www.f6s.com/innuos

https://www.f6s.com/ameliasantos

http://rr.sapo.pt/omeupais/loule.html

 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/digital4her-10-finalists-pitching-session-announced

 

It's fun to hear where their competitions are coming from. Obviously Aurender should be on her mind when she mentioned South Korea, then the Japanese one might be Melco.

 

BTW, are they the only one who collaborated with a university so far?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=305&tab=comments#comment-808121

 

 

Wow, where do you find this stuff? Bravo!

 

Yes, I suspect Aurender and Melco are the logical references.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, nvitorino said:

We plan to bring this option on the 1.4.1 update that we are developing now.

 

Excellent news, Nuno!

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, nvitorino said:

A lot of you are Roon users. There is very limited scope to what we can improve in terms of sound quality with Roon. We can improve things on the OS side of the system that will benefit both Roon and innuOS users. However, I hope you understand that it's likely there will always be differences between the platforms. Software implementation matters and whilst we can do improvements on the Squeezelite player, we cannot to them to the Roon player as we have no access to its code. 

 

Nuno,

 

Have you discussed this ability with Roon? Maybe we can make a 2-pronged effort to effect a change: you from your manufacturer relationship, and we from the community side.

 

i found a thread on this on the Roon community forum: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/does-roon-download-entire-track-into-ram-memory-playback-discussion/12397/23

 

i suggest we get vocal with Roon about this. I’ve already done so.

[austinpop]

7 hours ago, simorag said:

Would prefer a neutral-to-warmish signature (if that word applies to power cables).

 

The Cardas Clear family certainly match the warm-of-neutral profile. But there are a ton of choices. And it is really hard to know what to try. If you were in the US, you could use the Cable Co. cable lending library to try out cables, but not sure about the options in Italy. If you have any local audio dealers, see if they'll lend you cables while they are closed over the weekend.

 

5 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

... power cables, especially those made with heavy gauge cable take an age to run in and can sound quite strange during the running in process...

 

... I bought an IEC to mains plug adapter which allowed me to use the cable with a reciprocating fan

 

This is hilarious! I just today bought a pair of these...

... so I could connect a pair of Cardas Clear Beyond cables (that I received for my reviewing needs) in series with my refrigerator, to let them burn in for a couple weeks. In the past, I've used power cables on desktop computers to burn them in.

 

I long ago found that burn in mattered with pretty much most components, so these days, I don't even think about the what and why... I just give anything new at least 200 hours of "use" before listening critically.

[austinpop]

6 minutes ago, yellowblue said:

Installed without problems and no dropouts until now. Unexpected big jump in SQ with squeezelite activated - soundstage is wider and deeper, better imaging, more natural sounding....

This was a good answer from Nuno regarding all our NUC-AL hype. Will be interesting to see what a NUC with AL can add as a Roon renderer/endpoint. But there is always the possibility to stay with the Zenith SE as a very reliable Roon-server. 

 

Indeed! As I wrote in the novel thread:

 

On 12/3/2018 at 11:31 AM, austinpop said:

 Not everybody likes to dabble and tweak. If you own one of these, don't feel you are missing out a lot with all this NUC euphoria. This is a seriously good piece of kit, and Innuos is an innovative company. Trust me, they are watching this space closely, and will very likely offer some of these improvements in their own way. And you can always dip your toes into the pool, like I initially did, by booting up your box with an AL/SE USB stick - the original config is just a reboot away - or by adding a NUC downstream of the SE.

 

There are many path to nirvana!