Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[left channel]

Everything you guys are discussing here, except maybe that squeal, has already been covered in the other thread. Just saying.

Over there I've also just posted a comparison to other DACs, and information on the software/firmware updates.

[left channel]

On another forum the designer confirmed this one is better than other Pro-Ject products in the new generation due to "dual ESS's & extra PSU's". Most Pro-Ject projects by definition have a low budget, but within those bounds this is an impressive little box.

 

If you get one with pink labels on the capacitors, send it back. Those did not meet the designer's requirements, but were somehow substituted during the initial sample production run. He made Pro-Ject switch back to the blue-capped caps he'd specified.

 

The designer is John Westlake, known for award-winning products from Cambridge, Peachtree, and Audiolab. He is currently working on a mini-streamer+DAC open project, beginning with a DIY board kit, just because he wants to.

[left channel]

4 hours ago, rickca said:

Companies should hire you to run their beta programs!  Excellent communications, thanks.

 

Thank you. I have run companies. Glad I can still communicate. Managing betas had me pretty worn out for a while.
 

[left channel]

49 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Yes, i have heard this, but how does one know if it is a good design or not?

I know it has galvanic isolation on the input, and i heard the output stage is the most important, but what exactly does that mean?  What should someone look for to know if a dac has a good design or not....clearly it is not just about cost from what i have found.....is someone suggesting that this is not a good design, and compared to what?  anything better for less than $400??  Less than $1000??

 

And is it just subjective, and not objective?

 

Is it for all music, or all songs, or all instruments....so many times i hear I Like this dac better for soundstage, this one better for detail, this one better for bass, this one better for vocals etc....if there is not a definitive design that is better for all things, then why not just buy a cheap one with a good design that sounds good to you.  I still have not heard one dac that sounds convincingly better than another for all music...put your money in a good amp and speakers.

 

At least it does native DSD!

 

 

Actually it does not have galvanic isolation. It does have USB filtering. And it does not do native DSD, it does DoP. Still a fan though.

[left channel]

2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Still to be confirmed. I have a feeling it does. Let's wait for @gahabana to confirm.

 

 

Huh. I just found a post by the designer saying it does native DSD512. Looking forward to learning how though.

 

For the record @beerandmusic I also found a post by the designer saying it does not have galvanic isolation.

[left channel]

12 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

Clock's already ticking for Pro-ject. Now you can get a decent looking mid-grade ES9038 Q2M portable PLUS an xmos208 for $200. That was even faster than my earlier projection. Topping isn't going to titillate this crowd but they make decent budget gear and have for some years now. So that $399 is already starting to look a little much.

 

Not saying the Pro-ject isn't better. Would certainly hope so for the price. Just providing perspective at just how quickly the dac market turns around now.

 

That link didn't work. Happens sometimes, somehow we get linked back to current CA page. Can you still edit that post, or reply with the link?

[left channel]

5 minutes ago, firedog said:

You are going to start an argument with TedB. DoP is native DSD playback, as there is no conversion to PCM. That's the definition of "native" playback. See the JRiver wiki for the explanation:

 

 note also: https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/69859/native-dsd

http://blog.nativedsd.com/the-nativity-of-native/

 

 

Actually I get to duck the whole argument, because thanks to @gahabana we know this DAC will work with native DSD. I haven't listened to native myself, but am told DoP sounds the same.

[left channel]

2 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

 

Edited the post but I'll add the Topping link here as well

 

Thanks. First thing that jumps out at me is that Pro-Ject is a dual DAC design, and the Topping is not. But I agree this is a good example of where the market is going.

[left channel]

5 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

hmmm...well there is conflicting information out there then....

 

https://www.henleyaudio.co.uk/shop/product/viewfile?FileId=2827&ProductId=741

 

 

We can rely only on what John Westlake wrote himself. Some of the early European reviews relied on materials prepared before the product was even finished, by Pro-Ject marketing and partner staff in two other countries. On another forum, John specifically wrote that it does not have galvanic isolation. It does have USB filtering. He also wrote that it supports DSD512; we just needed intrepid users like @gahabana to figure out how to do that.

[left channel]

@Em2016 Pro-Ject is now considering a Mac version of the firmware update utility. Wow!

 

@baloo2 does an Apple Remote or Siri Remote work with Audirvana or Roon? Those companies offer their own tablet/phone based "remotes", and as far as I know never mention compatibility with Apple remotes. Tidal on the other hand seems to respond to the same basic OS commands relied on by iTunes on Mac and Windows, which is probably why the Pro-Ject remote works with it. I can ask Pro-Ject Support, but first trying to get a handle on this question.

 

@GUTB I agree the preamp signal is not strong compared to another little box I have here on my desk. At low volumes that could be a problem with speakers or subs that already go into automatic sleep modes too easily with other products. (PSB, for example.) Also, I'm hoping to gather reports of noisy starts or mode-switch clicks, if any, before writing back to Pro-Ject Support again.

[left channel]

OK @baloo2 thanks, that's what I needed to know. I'll request they add that to their Mac plans.

[left channel]

 

34 minutes ago, Jamesroy said:

I'm about to purchase the Pro-Ject DAC BOX DS2 Ultra but hear that it's not compatible with El Capitan. I use A+ (Audirvana Plus) as my music player. I'm making a big step up from ifi DSD NANO.

 

Since that initial post you quoted, it's been confirmed that the Pre Box S2 Digital also supports native DSD in addition to DoP.

 

There are several Mac users on this thread who seem to be running the Pre Box S2 Digital with no problem. Perhaps they can report their macOS version here.

 

(For the benefit of other readers, I should note we began this discussion in your thread on the DS2 Ultra, where I mentioned that Pro-Ject DACs and DACs from many other companies have problems with El Capitan, and some have problems with Sierra as well. In that thread I provided links to more information.)

[left channel]

@GUTB & @Miska I notice the Roon update released today includes "HQPlayer stability improvements". Please let us know if that fixes the problem. Chris has a link to the release notes here:

 

[left channel]

33 minutes ago, Jamesroy said:

I'm looking at Pro-Ject DAC BOX DS2 Ultra I think it's an upgrade to the one your talking about. I'm asking a lot of questions because 650.00 is a lot of cash to me. I'm on a Mac Book Pro running AudirvanaPlus as my music player. Some rumors say Pro-Ject won't make friends with the Mac OS El Capitan or Sierra. Can't get a straight answer on that. I hate to admit it but I'm running old Yosemite because I thought there was a bug in A+ (AudirvanaPlus) But I like the way it catalogues and sounds.

 

It is not an upgrade. As I explained on your DS2 Ultra thread, it is an older product with a very different design and fewer features.

I believe I provided you a straight answer on the macOS issues, which are not rumors and are clearly stated on the Pro-Ject website. The only thing not straight about the answers is that Apple made these problems hard to fix, but I directed you to online resources for further research and assistance.

You are taking this thread off-topic. Please take these questions back to your DS2 Ultra thread. I'll be glad to help you there. https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/37920-pro-ject-dac-box-ds2-ultra-in-black-os-el-capitan/

 

[left channel]

37 minutes ago, Jamesroy said:

This is my point. I don't think there talking about the New DS2 Ultra, if I'm mistaken I apologise.

 

You are mistaken. For one thing, the DS2 Ultra is not "New". It is a 2016 product.

This will be my last response to you here. Feel free to continue this conversation on your DS2 Ultra thread.

 

[left channel]

Tidal cleverly conceals some of the required settings. In the Tidal app, click on "HiFi" or "Master" at the lower right. In the control panel that pops up, under Quality select "Master". Under Sound Output select your MQA DAC. Then hover over the name of the DAC until the gear icon appears, and click that icon. Select all three items there, close the panel, and try again. Please let us know how it sounds.

[left channel]

I'm sorry @point1guy I didn't ready your post carefully. #TooEarly. What you're seeing is expected behavior: the container is a 24/48 file, and that's all anything other than MQA software will see.

 

If you use the MQA software decoding built into the Tidal app, the file gets "unfolded" to 24/96. What you're doing now is sending the 24/48 file directly to the DAC, which is unfolding it to 24/192. Without any decoding, the file would play at 24/48 on the DAC too.

 

Glad you found the fixed volume control setting anyway, as that can otherwise get accidentally adjusted at the least convenient times.

[left channel]

Thanks @Cornell77, I will add that to the list in my next exchange with the support manager. There hasn't been much stock available lately, but that situation may have improved.

 

UAPP did work with this DAC for me, on a Pixel XL phone. I couldn't get my Pixel C tablet to work with it at all. The music didn't sound very good; I'm not certain UAPP can help with that. Have you seen my posts on this topic? My phone is a Pixel XL. 

 

On 10/3/2017 at 6:45 AM, left channel said:

<snip>

 

The new information here is that after listening for a while, I found that my phone as a source sounded far weaker and thinner than my PC. As I mentioned in a previous post, I had to use a USB REGEN to get this Box to pair with the phone. The phone does not supply enough power alone. I first tried connecting the Pro-Ject wall wart, but UAPP still could not detect the DAC.

 

<snip>
 

 

Aside from that overall weakness, these are my results:

 

On 10/1/2017 at 8:59 AM, left channel said:

<snip>

● Unable to power the Pre Box S2 Digital directly from the phone. Android shows the "USB Supplying Power to Attached Device" message, but apparently does not feed enough power to the Box.
● Powering the Box with the supplied wall-wart doesn't help: the Box lights up, but UAPP reports no DAC found.
● Putting a USB REGEN into the chain works! Full communication between UAPP and the DAC.

Results:
● Playing hi-res files on the device OK.
● Streaming above 44.1 kHz stutters until bit-perfect enabled.
● Tidal HiFi streaming OK, 44.1 and 48 kHz (UAPP and Pre Box show same sample rate).
● Tidal MQA streaming OK, 96 and 192 kHz (UAPP shows 48 kHz but Pre Box shows 192).
● Qobuz low-res and Hi-Res streaming OK, to 192 kHz (UAPP and Pre Box show same sample rates).

<snip>

 

[left channel]

Glad to help. I only tested with Androids. I do not have iOS devices, and I don't force family members to lend me their i-phones, i-tablets, or i-patience.

[left channel]

Thanks, I found it: he said this DAC "works fine" with his iPhone, using the external power adapter and a Lightning to micro USB cable, but he offered no sonic comparison and apparently the iPhone can't power the DAC alone.

 

For Android and UAPP, I think the problem is that the maximum USB OTG current is 500mA, and actual output from various models may be far lower. This DAC requires 1000mA (= 1A), and apparently won' respond to a low-current signal even when the external adapter is plugged in as well.

Davy wouldn't be able to help with that Android amperage problem, so an inline USB power accessory like the REGEN  would still be necessary. Maybe there's something he can do about how weak the signal sounds, but I'm not too hopeful about that.

[left channel]

That must be it, thanks. 100mA is just too teeny.

[left channel]

Headfonia review:

 

Pro-Ject Audio Pre Box S2 Digital – upstream success

https://www.headfonia.com/review-pro-ject-audio-pre-box-s2/

[left channel]

Over on head-fi a user has reported a bug in the 2.12 firmware. To reproduce it, try this:

 

1) set the filter to Optimal Transient,
2) play an MQA track (this turns off the filters automatically),
3) play a non-MQA version of the same track, and it will sound thinner/weaker than it should,
4) change the filter setting and it immediately sounds better; toggle it back around to Optimal Transient and the track sounds normal.

 

I've posted the above on pinkfishmedia where the developer hangs out. If your device also has this bug, it would be helpful if you can quote and reply to my post there [link] to report it.

[left channel]

Interesting, thanks. Meridian, huh?  At least they're in good company. :-)

[left channel]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Probably the same MQA code all over, inheriting same bugs...

 

 

Good point. I'll try to relay that to the developer.