USB audio cracked... finally!

[manisandher]

6 hours ago, scan80269 said:

Based on recent understandings of what issues the USB interface of a DAC can suffer, I believe there will be newer DAC designs with integrated galvanic isolation, re-clocking, etc. that will render most of the existing USB tweak devices redundant.  It should only be a matter of time.  A few excellent DACs today (Phasure? Berkeley?) are already so good they don't benefit from the USB tweak boxes. 

 

I can't talk about the Berkeley, but I'm quite familiar with the other one 

 

In it's latest 'G3' guise, with built-in 'Phisolator' (providing galvanic isolation and reconditioning, but with no signal processing), the Phasure NOS1 DAC achieves what you've written above, and yet... the USB cable from the audio PC to DAC still has an affect on the sound. However, using any other 'USB tweak box' before the DAC tends to destroy the sound.

 

Go figure...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

5 hours ago, hols said:

It so happens that I just received my Lush USB cable 3 days ago and I happen to have both Phasure NOS1a and also several other DACs including Holo Spring that I have also been testing the SOtM tx-USB Ultra (powered by JS-2)and the isoREGEN(powered by LPS1) with USPCB(burned in for the past 2 weeks).

 

Hi L, really great post - thanks for sharing.

 

5 hours ago, hols said:

I then changed to the Lush cable(not really burned in yet) and I must say that this is the one. It just gives you the analogue feel together with details. The violins are silky and yet you can still hear them conveying to you the feelings. No excessive full bodied sound. And listen to the gentle decay of the sound at decrescendos and sound slowly dying away. The microdynamics are all there and most important with feeling. And when the solo piano comes in the percussive notes is both authoritative and musical. Very difficult to achieve. And the musical sound and transparency and details are always there and never gives you fatigue. I must say that this is definitely my preferred sound.

 

Your description of the sound of the Lush matches mine quite closely:

 

13 hours ago, manisandher said:

To my ears, the Lush makes my system sound totally natural and 'analogue'. Instruments and voices have a rich harmonic texture, and yet sound crystal clear.

 

5 hours ago, hols said:

I think the sound can only be bettered by the Phasure NOS1a upgraded G3 which I agree is the best digital sound I have ever heard. Dynamic and yet comes with detail and feelings.( It is a PCM system and yet the musicality wins  the DSD in my other system). The only digital system that can be compared to my $30k LP system.

 

Yep, the NOS1 G3 is a truly SOTA DAC. What amazes me is that I've had my NOS1 for well over 6 years now. In that time, Peter has applied a major upgrade every couple of years or so (and I fully expect this to continue... Peter?). The basic foundation of the DAC tends to remains (e.g. the eight PCM1704U-K chips, etc), but as new technology appears (e.g. femto clocks, etc), it is incorporated into the DAC to keep it SOTA. A really, really nice model IMO.

 

5 hours ago, hols said:

I have no commercial association with all the gears I have mentioned. Just an enduser reporting the end result in his own system.

 

Contrary to what some here believe, I'm in exactly the same boat. I have zero affiliation with Phasure (other than considering Peter and his family friends). Yes, I'm a fan. But then again, how could I not be? The NOS1 knocked my beloved Pacific Microsonics Model Two off its top spot 6 years ago and since then has seen off all other contenders.

 

[And for the record, I've always paid the full retail price for all Phasure products, and will continue to do so - they're already stupidly good value for money, and I know how much time and care goes into creating each one.]

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

9 minutes ago, austinpop said:

But in terms of listening impressions and comparisons with USPCB and other cables?

 

You may have to wait a short while before non-Phasure users start reporting their impressions of the Lush. I only first listened to my own Lush 4 days ago. It was apparent within the first few minutes that it was unlike any other USB cable or 'tweak' I'd tried. I sincerely hope others will feel the same when they try it (I'm kind of confident they will!).

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 hours ago, PeterSt said:

This is (in my view) how USB3 always sounded better than USB2 (at the PC's end)...

 

FWIW, I have a strong preference for using the USB2 port at the back of the audio PC - it sounds more 'alive' than any of the USB3 slots, with a bit more bite. USB3 sounds full-bodied, but overly-smooth and boring in comparison... in my system... to my ears. (And yes, even with the Lush feeding the Phisolator built into the DAC, different PC ports still sound different.)

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

It is a study project for our Paul (who managed to study embedded engineering without me pushing him) and if I'm right such a project would be for graduated and beyond. He's in his 2nd year soon.

 

Yep, that boy's one smart cookie. Must get it from his mum's side 

 

Mani

[manisandher]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This just in - 

 

From the Schiit website:

 

“Throw away your decrapifiers, regenerators, isolators, magic boxes, and all the rest of those USB band-aids,” Mike Moffat, Schiit’s Co-Founder said. “You don’t need them with our Gen 5 USB input.”

 

Suggests that nothing before the Gen 5 will make a difference. Might buy a new Schiit DAC with Gen 5 installed just to find out. Will obviously report my findings...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I thought it was appropriate to post in this thread because it's right up the alley of this discussion. 

 

Absolutely it is.

 

It's quite a claim from Schiit though, and they're going to have to live up to it. Interesting that they're not offering the Gen 5 in a USB-to-USB isolator (only a USB-to-spdif converter, the Eitr) - if they had, it would have been easy for anyone with any USB DAC to verify their claim.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

10 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Yeah, but then it would still have to be connected to the DACs USB input. Doing spdif you avoid that. 

 

True.

 

It's interesting, from what I recollect of the Yggy's sound when I had it here last year, I'd say it was crying out for something like the Lush.

 

In any event, I'll get hold of an Yggy Gen 5 at some point to verify their claim of total USB immunity... and see how far behind the Phasure NOS1 G3 it remains 

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

18 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

How does the noise get past the magnetic transformer?

 

I've never understood why people think transformers prevent noise from passing through them. They prevent DC, for sure, and are certainly bandwidth limited. But in this case, they must pass (edit - really need to get my M and k sorted out!) 500MHz or so, so any noise under (edit) 500MHz will get through. If it didn't, the USB signal wouldn't either.

 

What am I missing here?

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

But it is still USB. Who wants that. 

 

 

Hey Peter, what exactly did you mean by this?

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

12 minutes ago, Jud said:

AES/EBU may have its own problems as well, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with it to know about them.  (Can it be run async, with the controlling clock in the DAC?)

 

Hey Jud, I used AES/EBU for a long time, using a Weiss AFI1 (firewire) to interface my Pacific Microsonics Model Two to the audio PC. Yes you can have the controlling clock in the DAC - you need to have a separate clock line and set the DAC to 'master' and the interface (or the transport, or whatever else) to 'slave'. It worked pretty well. The biggest issue for me was the lack of proper impedance matching on the 110 Ohm cables (only 50/75 Ohm BNC seems to be capable of providing this effectively), so all AES cables sounded different. Even different lengths of the same AES cable sounded different, as did varying the AES signal voltage through the cable. I'm pretty certain I documented all this right here on CA - the threads are probably 6-7 years old now.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

23 minutes ago, marce said:

With measurements?

 

Me? No. I observed the differences in sound, as I described. I then went looking for what might be causing them and learned a lot from Pat over at AR-T, an RF engineer who has the necessary equipment to test these things.

 

Edit: This is the sort of stuff he likes to do:

 

Output return loss from his Legato USB-to-spdif converter:

Output return loss from an unnamed competitor's product:

Output return loss from another unnamed competitor's product:

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, marce said:

Thanks.

 

Probably didn't get the graphs up quickly enough...

 

Very interesting stuff!

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

I'm really enjoying the technical discussion, but thought I'd just share another actual listening observation, before we start to get some other listening impressions (hopefully) from non-Phasure users.

 

I've just compared the Lush with one of the 'high speed USB certified' cables I have here:

 

 

This sort of cable is often recommended by those who don't believe USB cables make a difference to the sound. Well let me tell you that compared to the Lush, this cable (and the other USB2 certified cables I have) sounds totally boring. The sound is smeared and veiled. There is zero musicality. It really wouldn't matter how good the rest of your system was, if you were using one of these, the musicality would be utterly non-existent.

 

I'm writing this post knowing that some non-Phasure users will receive their Lush cables soon. Kind of sticking my neck out in a way, because these people may disagree with my opinion of the Lush. But judging by this comparison, I'm pretty confident I'll be fine.

 

Back to the technical discussion...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

13 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Either there's something wrong with your system, or my system is just significantly better   

 

Neither 

 

13 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Involving, enveloping, natural-sounding, wide and deep soundstage, engaging, musical.

 

Yep, that's exactly how I would have described my sound too, with the USB cable I'd been using for the last couple of years. I was quite happy with my 10 year-old Pioneer plasma TV... until I saw an OLED a few months back...

 

13 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

While I can imagine that Lush might make a difference (based on some of the proposed theories and mechanisms that have been discussed in this thread), I seriously cannot imagine anything but a small, incremental improvement to what I'm hearing now. Maybe I just lack imagination

 

Maybe.

 

We'll have opinions of other non-Phasure users soon. I hope they'll be such that you'll take the plunge too. Happy to then resume our little chat...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

23 minutes ago, jabbr said:

... so bear with me a bit on these technical details because I'm trying to provide a rational explanation of how there is at least a mechanism for cables and interfaces to have an effect.

 

Absolutely! It's fascinating stuff.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

5 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

What are your recommendations / experience for burn in for these?

 

Hey Alan, great that yours has come through.

 

Mine sounded pretty good from the off, but I think it's become a little more detailed-sounding over the week or so I've had it in the system.

 

5 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Perhaps it's the spongyness that carries the USB in a non-2.0 manner 

 

Yep, they do look 'spongy' - apparently, that particular sleeve is absolutely necessary. Fortunately, there's nothing spongy about their sound!

 

Look forward to hearing your thoughts...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

36 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

3.

Of course I said so because I was ignorant and used a completely different interface for the first incarnation of the Phasure NOS1 DAC. It was a PCIe interface (don't tell).

 

Aah, memories. I've had (both) my NOS1s for over 6 years now, and in that time they've gone from using PCIe 24/384, to using USB 24/384, and to using USB 24/768 now. The one in my office works very nicely with Roon -> HQP, the latter upsampling to 24/705.6 (or 24/768) before feeding the NOS1.

 

36 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

More in 7 months ... 

 

Hmm... So our Lushes will become obsolete? 

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Hey Brian, good to know you share private emails with others...

 

24 minutes ago, Boleary3 said:

... let me share with you Mani's April 2016 words to me regarding letting go of the Yggy:

"How are you getting on with things? I ask because I’ll be returning my demo Yggy back to the distributor next week… and I’m already starting to feel sad! I really think I’m going to miss its sound. I’d never say this to Peter (so please keep this between you and me) but I’m almost inclined to say to hell with its measurements. There’s something about its sound that I’ve never heard before and that’s so alluring.")

 

Actually, I did share my thoughts with Peter. Everything.

 

This is one of my first emails:

 

Quote

I’ve borrowed a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC from the local distributor – he offered, so I accepted! It sounds ‘interesting’. There’s a freshness, liveness and clarity to the sound that is really impressive on first listen. But after extended listening it is a tad too sibilant and too lean – not enough body and weight to instruments for my liking. Actually, it sounds like the NOS1a but with a very lean filter (leaner than AP) applied. But nevertheless, very impressive for $2,299.

 

And one you sent to me (seeing as we're sharing):

 

Quote

Hey Mani, Peter tells me you been listening to the Yaggdrasil. He says you've not liked the sound but were initially impressed...

 

Oh, and another one to you, for good measure:

 

I’m now back home and have the Yggy and my [modded] NOS1a both switched on and sitting next to each other. I’ve spent hours listening to music and comparing the DACs – the first time I’ve done this directly and to such an extent.

 

I tried your XX settings and am afraid that they simply accentuate all the things I don’t like about the Yggy. I prefer my regular XX setttings (0.07 and 14, 1, 1, 1, 1).

 

Comparing side-by-side I’m now even more convinced of my original thoughts about the Yggy. It’s got one hell of a seductive sound, but there’s something not right about it… to my ears… and in my system. My recollection earlier this week was of a different sound from the Yggy, but this was obviously my recollection of the Yggy in my  office system (way more forgiving) than my main system. Having the Yggy in my main system, I can listen to a track for all of 30 seconds or so before I have to switch it off. It just isn’t working for me. The NOS1a meanwhile does everything I could hope for and more. It’s simply phenomenal.

 

Yep, everything was fully disclosed.

 

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I must say that the USB input sounds nowhere near as good as does either the optical or the coaxial SPDIF inputs!

 

Whether it's its USB receiver or something else, it seems the Yggy and the Lush may not be the 'match made in heaven' that I suspected it might be.

 

Let's leave the Yggy out of the Lush discussion going forward...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

George, is that about the FLAC thing I read about ?

 

Yep. I have some (not all) 16/48 captures if anyone is interested...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Whilst we wait for more listening impressions, this is probably a good time to take stock.

 

On the Phasure forum, Peter introduced his thinking as follows:

 

“But who actually tells that the USB specification with its - mind you - wide margin can't be improved for Audio ? So that is exactly what I did ... First it took two months or so of throughput before I found how specifications as such would influence the sound.”

 

We had the first few user impressions coming through on the Phasure forum very quickly (not from me, as I hadn’t even ordered mine at this point):

• “First seconds already ... WoW!”
• “WOW indeed...”
• “I am using Lush now for 1 day. Very first impression, I am missing something. But within some tracks I started to appreciate the sound. Really smooth and warmer but with same details AND better bass again.”
• “Perhaps it is because I am still in the honeymoon period (my The Lush arrived this morning) but this cable is "the business".  Harmonics anyone?  The albums that I have listened to so far have been very enjoyable. Yes the sound is more lush, or perhaps even warmer, than the Clarixia.  It kind of reminds me of why people choose triodes and 4 or 5 way acoustic systems...that depth of presentation with a harmonic richness to soothe the soul.”
• Lush has arrived here and all I have to say is: WOW !!!! It is like all digital "stuff" has been removed from my system and replaced with analogue.”

Towards the beginning of this thread, I wrote:

 

“When I say that [USB audio’s] been cracked, I mean how a USB cable's electrical and mechanical properties, and its geometry affect the sound has been cracked. Peter now seems to know how to configure a USB cable to voice the sound from it. We are no longer in the realm of trial and error.”

 

To date, we’ve had 4 user impressions in this thread. The first 3 from fellow Phasure DAC users:

 

• “I'll agree with Mani when he says that the current Phasure PC/dac combo is the most musical digital I've ever heard.  An important part of that is the USB cable and The Lush is probably the best money I've ever spent in audio.”
• “The Lush gives my system a 'natural' and 'analogue' sound. Instruments and voices are both full-bodied and crystal clear at the same time. The whole sound resonates beautifully, with a natural decay.”
• “I then changed to the Lush cable(not really burned in yet) and I must say that this is the one. It just gives you the analogue feel together with details. The violins are silky and yet you can still hear them conveying to you the feelings. No excessive full bodied sound. And listen to the gentle decay of the sound at decrescendos and sound slowly dying away. The microdynamics are all there and most important with feeling. And when the solo piano comes in the percussive notes is both authoritative and musical. Very difficult to achieve. And the musical sound and transparency and details are always there and never gives you fatigue. I must say that this is definitely my preferred sound.”

And the most recent from a non-Phasure DAC user:

• “Though the Lush has a very, very pleasing sound it loses the "air" of the Clairixa. To my ears, in my system, in my house the Lush imparts a smooth, rounded and detailed sonic signature, but I have to turn up the volume to get the  bloom I so love with the Clairixa.”

Very much looking forward to hearing more listening impressions, especially from non-Phasure DAC users.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Great summary Anthony.

 

I'd just like to highlight one thing:

 

1 hour ago, acg said:

The NOS1a G3 is a conventional standalone dac that is not really conventional in some ways.   It has none of the things that can destroy sound quality: volume control; multiple inputs; multiple outputs; oversampling etc cetera.  It is usb input only, non- oversampling and relies on software volume control...a purist approach from any perspective. 

 

Yes, technically the NOS1 is a 'non-oversampling, non-filtering' DAC. However, this can be confusing because unlike most traditional non-oversampling DACs (the Audio Notes, etc.), the NOS1 is not meant to be used in a 'non-oversampling' fashion. It is assumed that whichever software player is feeding the NOS1 will upsample the signal to 24/705.6 or 24/768 beforehand. XXHighEnd's 'Arc Prediction' filter is generally considered to do the best job sonically.

 

1 hour ago, acg said:

Roon cannot be used in the XXHE ecosystem if you are chasing optimum sound.  I think @manisandher uses Roon via HQPlayer, but he is probably the only one.

 

I own two NOS1 DACs - one in my main system, the other in my home office system. I use Roon -> HQP -> NOS1 in my office system, because Roon is just perfect for my purposes there. In HQP, I upsample to 24/705.6 using its 'closed filter' and 'NS5' noise-shaping. This all works totally seamlessly, and sounds fantastic. Though it's true, XXHighEnd still sounds better, because of all the OS optimisation, etc it does.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

I know nothing of the Phasure universe. Until last week, when people started talking about the Lush cable, I'd never even heard of the thing.

 

Yes, it's strange that one of the greatest innovators of computer audio these last 10 years hasn't managed to get much traction on the preeminent computer audio site.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

39 minutes ago, matthias said:

Is there a price information available for the NOS1a G3 ?

 

Matt, I'm not sure. I guess it must be around $6k-7k nowadays. I'd put the NOS1 G3 up against any DAC at any price. Most of us already owned a NOS1 DAC and had it updated to G3 status for around $1k. Again, amongst the best money I've ever spent on audio.

 

Probably best to take any further discussion of the NOS1 DAC across to this thread: 

Mani.