Which DACs bypass digital filtering?

[semente]

2 hours ago, bogi said:

But I see it could be about digital DSD filter setting - from manual:

 

The menu is switched by the movement of the digital cursor, as follows:
—1). PCM digital filter adjustment
—2).DSD digital filter adjustment
—3).DSD direct mode decoding
—4 ). Clock source selection

 

AFAIK for example analog output of ESS chips needs yet to be additionally filtered in analog domain.

We understand direct DSD path as path where no lossy operation appears in digital domain.

So I am interested about more information about nature of DSD digital filters used.

If I well understand, it is about filters in AK4191 chip (not AK4499EX).

 

 

About direct DSD A26 manual says: "When this option is turned on ( EN A B L E ), it will pass through DSD , and only the most original DSD signal at the front end will be sent to the decoding circuit. "

But then what is the meaning of 'DSD Filter 2' on the picture? Miska, could you please explain?

 

It looks like 'DSD Filter 1' goes through DSP and the SDM, and 'DSD Filter 2' has a direct path to the D/A stage.

If that is the case then calling it 'DSD Filter 2' is a poor choice.

[semente]

35 minutes ago, bogi said:

 

DSD filter 1 and 2 (selection by menu item 2) is not  about switching paths to path 1 or path 2. That's done by menu item 3.

 

AK4191 datasheet states:

 

I am interested to discuss if DSD stream processing through such a FIR filter is or can be considered lossless. And if path containing such a FIR filter fits to how we understand the term 'direct DSD path'.

 

 

Are they digital or analogue FIR filters?

0. • DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, DSD512, DSD1024 Input Support

1. Filter1 (fc = 19 kHz, DSD64 mode)
   Filter2 (fc = 39 kHz, DSD64 mode)

Interestingly it also has an external digital filter EXDF Mode.

 

https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/download_datasheet.php?id=253493&part-number=AK4191EQ&type=pn2

[semente]

2 hours ago, Nkam said:

An AP analyzer can be bought by anyone these days. 
And besides that, who does that for ‘ recreation’ ?

🙄

[semente]

Update:

 

NOS PCM Capable DACs

• Aqua

• Armature Asterion

• Audio GD

• EC Designs Powerdacs R, S, B

• Hifiman EF400

• Holo Audio (except Cyan DSD)

• Metrum Acoustics

• Phasure NOS1

• Rockna

 

Native DSD Capable DACs

• Armature Asterion (discrete)

• Audio-GD R1 NOS (discrete)

• Audiobyte Vox (discrete)

• Bricasti M21 and M3 (discrete)

• Esoteric (BB/TI, AKM, discrete) - some models

• FiiO K7 (AKM)

• Gustard DAC-A22, DAC-A26 (AKM)

• Holo Audio Spring, May, Cyan DSD (discrete)

• iFi iDSD lineup (BB/TI)

• RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC (AKM)

• Sabaj A10d (AKM)

• Singxer SDA-x (AKM)

• SMSL D-6 M400, D300, D400 EX (AKM)

• T+A DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV, HA 200, DAC 200 (discrete)

• Teac UD-501 (BB/TI); UD-503 & UD-505 (AKM); UD-701 (discrete)

• Topping E30, T70, T90 (AKM)

[semente]

5 hours ago, matthias said:

AFAIK, not only the R1 NOS which is the cheapest AGD DAC but all more expensive AGD DACs too.

 

Matt

 

Thanks Matt. I am keeping valve DACs off the list, any other models to join the R1 NOS?

[semente]

9 hours ago, Miska said:

Marantz devices I mentioned are missing? Or you didn't want to add those?

Is it possible to bypass internal DSP?

If so I can add.

[semente]

Update:

 

NOS PCM Capable DACs

• Aqua

• Armature Asterion

• Audio GD

• EC Designs Powerdacs R, S, B

• Hifiman EF400

• Holo Audio (except Cyan DSD)

• Metrum Acoustics

• Phasure NOS1

• Rockna

 

Native DSD Capable DACs

• Armature Asterion (discrete)

• Audio-GD R1 NOS (discrete)

• Audiobyte Vox (discrete)

• Bricasti M21 and M3 (discrete)

• Esoteric (BB/TI, AKM, discrete) - some models

• FiiO K7 (AKM)

• Gustard DAC-A22, DAC-A26 (AKM)

• Holo Audio Spring, May, Cyan DSD (discrete)

• iFi iDSD lineup (BB/TI)

• Marantz HD-DAC1 (discrete)

• Musical Fidelity M3x DAC (BB/TI)

• RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC (AKM)

• Sabaj A10d (AKM)

• Singxer SDA-x (AKM)

• SMSL D-6 M400, D300, D400 EX (AKM)

• T+A DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV, HA 200, DAC 200 (discrete)

• Teac UD-501 (BB/TI); UD-503 & UD-505 (AKM); UD-701 (discrete)

• Topping E30, T70, T90 (AKM)

[semente]

Sorry, @Miska & @bogi...

 

 

Re-Update:

 

NOS PCM Capable DACs

• Aqua

• Armature Asterion

• Audio GD

• EC Designs Powerdacs R, S, B

• Hifiman EF400

• Holo Audio (except Cyan DSD)

• Metrum Acoustics

• Phasure NOS1

• Rockna

 

Native DSD Capable DACs

• Armature Asterion (discrete)

• Audio-GD R1 NOS (discrete)

• Audiobyte Vox (discrete)

• Bricasti M21 and M3 (discrete)

• Esoteric (BB/TI, AKM, discrete) - some models

• FiiO K7 (AKM)

• Gustard DAC-A22, DAC-A26 (AKM)

• Holo Audio Spring, May, Cyan DSD (discrete)

• iFi iDSD lineup (BB/TI)

• Marantz HD-DAC1 (CS), SA-12SE, SACD 30n, SA-10(discrete)

• Musical Fidelity M3x DAC (BB/TI)

• RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC (AKM)

• Sabaj A10d (AKM)

• Singxer SDA-x (AKM)

• SMSL D-6 M400, D300, D400 EX (AKM)

• T+A DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV, HA 200, DAC 200 (discrete)

• Teac UD-501 (BB/TI); UD-503 & UD-505 (AKM); UD-701 (discrete)

• Topping E30, D70, D90 (AKM)

[semente]

Update:

 

NOS PCM Capable DACs

• Aqua

• Armature Asterion

• Audio GD

• Cayin RU-6

• EC Designs Powerdacs R, S, B

• Hifiman EF400

• Holo Audio (except Cyan DSD)

• Metrum Acoustics

• Phasure NOS1

• Rockna

 

Native DSD Capable DACs

• Armature Asterion (discrete)

• Audio-GD NOS DACs (discrete)

• Audiobyte Vox (discrete)

• Bricasti M21 and M3 (discrete)

• Cayin RU-7 (discrete)

• Esoteric (BB/TI, AKM, discrete) - some models

• FiiO K7 (AKM)

• Gustard DAC-A22, DAC-A26 (AKM)

• Holo Audio Spring, May, Cyan DSD (discrete)

• iFi iDSD lineup (BB/TI)

• Marantz HD-DAC1 (CS), SA-12SE, SACD 30n, SA-10(discrete)

• Musical Fidelity M3x DAC (BB/TI)

• RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC (AKM)

• Sabaj A10d (AKM)

• Singxer SDA-x (AKM)

• SMSL D-6 M400, D300, D400 EX (AKM)

• T+A DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV, HA 200, DAC 200 (discrete)

• Teac UD-501 (BB/TI); UD-503 & UD-505 (AKM); UD-701 (discrete)

• Topping E30, D70, D90 (AKM)

[semente]

8 hours ago, Currawong said:

Should be "Audio-gd R2R DACs" for both entries. Even the ones that aren't NOS by default have NOS modes. If it's confusing at all, feel free to PM me, or I can go into detail.

 

I forgot to add to the PCM list, perhaps because it's not really relevant to me.

In my view, if it has a NOS mode it's a NOS DAC but I will change to your preferred designation.

 

I think I saw a model with the PCM1704 chip, does that also have a NOS mode?

[semente]

I've added the Loxie D50 and the Gustard DAC-A26.

 

 

Update:

 

NOS PCM Capable DACs

• Aqua

• Armature Asterion

• Audio GD

• Cayin RU-6

• EC Designs Powerdacs R, S, B

• Hifiman EF400

• Holo Audio (except Cyan DSD)

• Metrum Acoustics

• Phasure NOS1

• Rockna

 

Native DSD Capable DACs

• Armature Asterion (discrete)

• Audio-GD NOS DACs (discrete)

• Audiobyte Vox (discrete)

• Bricasti M21 and M3 (discrete)

• Cayin RU-7 (discrete)

• Esoteric (BB/TI, AKM, discrete) - some models

• FiiO K7 (AKM)

• Gustard DAC-A22, DAC-A26 (AKM)

• Holo Audio Spring, May, Cyan DSD (discrete)

• iFi iDSD lineup (BB/TI)

• Loxjie D50 (AKM)

• Marantz HD-DAC1 (CS), SA-12SE, SACD 30n, SA-10(discrete)

• Musical Fidelity M3x DAC (BB/TI)

• RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC (AKM)

• Sabaj A10d (AKM)

• Singxer SDA-x (AKM)

• SMSL D-6 M400, D300, D400 EX (AKM)

• T+A DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV, HA 200, DAC 200 (discrete)

• Teac UD-501 (BB/TI); UD-503 & UD-505 (AKM); UD-701 (discrete)

• Topping E30, D70, D90 (AKM)

[semente]

55 minutes ago, Miska said:

So maybe the topic should say "Which DACs are bit-perfect".

 

Hi Chris @The Computer Audiophile, would it be possible to change the topic name to "Which DACs are bit-perfect? (bypass digital filtering)" as suggested by Jussi?

[semente]

List of high-res bit-perfect DACs updated:

 

NOS PCM Capable DACs

• Aqua

• Armature Asterion

• Audio GD

• Cayin RU-6

• EC Designs Powerdacs R, S, B

• Hifiman EF400

• Holo Audio (except Cyan DSD)

• Metrum Acoustics

• Phasure NOS1

• Rockna

 

Native DSD Capable DACs

• Armature Asterion (discrete)

• Audio-GD NOS DACs (discrete)

• Audiobyte Vox (discrete)

• Bricasti M21 and M3 (discrete)

• Esoteric (BB/TI, AKM, discrete) - some models

• FiiO K7 (AKM)

• Gustard DAC-A22, DAC-A26 (AKM)

• Holo Audio Spring, May, Cyan DSD (discrete)

• iFi iDSD lineup (BB/TI)

• Loxjie D50 (AKM)

• Marantz HD-DAC1 (CS), SA-12SE, SACD 30n, SA-10(discrete)

• Musical Fidelity M3x DAC (BB/TI)

• RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC (AKM)

• Sabaj A10d (AKM)

• Singxer SDA-x (AKM)

• SMSL D-6 M400, D300, D400 EX (AKM)

• T+A DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV, HA 200, DAC 200 (discrete)

• Teac UD-501 (BB/TI); UD-503 & UD-505 (AKM); UD-701 (discrete)

• Topping E30, D70, D90 (AKM)

[semente]

Updated list:

 

NOS PCM Capable DACs

• Aqua

• Armature Asterion

• Audio GD

• Cayin RU-6

• EC Designs Powerdacs R, S, B

• Hifiman EF400

• Holo Audio (except Cyan DSD)

• Metrum Acoustics

• Phasure NOS1

• Rockna

 

Native DSD Capable DACs

• Armature Asterion (discrete)

• Audalytic AH90 (AKM)

• Audio-GD NOS DACs (discrete)

• Audiobyte Vox (discrete)

• Bricasti M21 and M3 (discrete)

• Esoteric (BB/TI, AKM, discrete) - some models

• FiiO K7 (AKM)

• Gustard DAC-A22, DAC-A26 (AKM)

• Holo Audio Spring, May, Cyan DSD (discrete)

• iFi iDSD lineup (BB/TI)

• Loxjie D50 (AKM)

• Marantz HD-DAC1 (CS), SA-12SE, SACD 30n, SA-10(discrete)

• Musical Fidelity M3x DAC (BB/TI)

• RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC (AKM)

• Sabaj A10d (AKM)

• Singxer SDA-x (AKM)

• SMSL D-6 M400, D300, D400 EX (AKM)

• T+A DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV, HA 200, DAC 200 (discrete)

• Teac UD-501 (BB/TI); UD-503 & UD-505 (AKM); UD-701 (discrete)

• Topping E30, D70, D90 (AKM)

[semente]

On 2/29/2024 at 8:50 AM, woshifeng3627 said:

 

 

Isn't Gustard R26 equipped with a NOS switch? It seems that both PCM and DSD can enable NOS, but why are they not listed in the PCM or DSD list above?

I seem to recall reading about teething problems when converting DSD.

Not sure if they've been addressed...