Just got a Yggdrasil!

[manisandher]

9 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Pot, Kettle, Black.

 

Pathetic.

[manisandher]

 

31 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

He's even posting dubious test results like how something designed to drive a 10,000 ohm load does with a 600 ohm load.

 

It's a standard test that JA subjects every DAC to. The Yggy struggled in a way that very few other DACs have.

 

29 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

He claims to have auditioned the Yggy.

 

Who are you talking about here?

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What does @manisandher have to gain by spending his time talking about a product (good or bad)? Chances are that he is just offering information, much the same as everyone else, to a community who can use and wants such information.

 

Exactly.

 

I started the thread, DAC test - 'Old School' vs. 'New Kid' just because I thought it might interest some people. I actually paid close to $5k to get hold of the DACs I used in the thread. What did I get out of this? Nothing, other than satisfying my interest. Actually, it led on to another thread that I found particularly interesting, How can a non-oversampling DAC sound good? I learned a lot of really interesting things there.

 

And this is how I've tended to operate on CA for the last 7 years or so.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

7 minutes ago, hornytoad said:

MAni has gone out of his way to disparage the Yggdrasil.  This measurement stuff was posted by him a million times before ,wasn't it? 

 

No. All the graphs I've posted in this thread have never been posted on CA before (to my knowledge). They're only 3 months old.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

12 minutes ago, crenca said:

Is this particular test controversial from an EE perspective? 

 

No, I don't think it is at all. Putting a component under a stress test can be quite insightful.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, hornytoad said:

So you posted your own measurements.

 

Are you a bit slow? All the measurements I've posted in this thread are from the Stereophile review of the Yggy, that was published in January this year.

 

As a result of the review, Stereophile gave the Yggy a class B rating, which I think is about right, based on my time with it.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

5 minutes ago, crenca said:

... sort of like hooking up a compact car to a 10,000 lb trailer and say "see, it can barely get moving and it overheats real quick and...".  Well yea, of course.  This is not really much of an insight.

 

I see it more of a 'Nürburgring time' sort of test. It's not particularly relevant to the way most owners would use the car on a day-to-day basis, but does sort the men from the boys.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

3 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

I learned a great deal about Computer Audiophile today. 

 

So have I! I am totally flabbergasted at the level of paranoia among some people here. An 'old-timers' club' here on CA? WTF?

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

1 hour ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

He claims to have auditioned the Yggy.

 

You didn't answer my question. Who are you talking about here?

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

3 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

And there's a lot of my questions you didn't answer.

 

Which of your questions did I not answer?

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Just now, Samuel T Cogley said:

 You can mock me all you want with disingenuous innuendo of paranoia.

 

No innuendo required.

 

Which of your questions did I not answer?

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

9 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

But he does this test on every DAC he measures, right?  This test is not about the Yggy - it must be something else...

 

 

It's interesting, he does indeed perform the 600 ohm test on all DACs, which most simply coast through. For the Yggy, he made a concession (due no doubt to its poor performance into 600 ohms), and did the test into 100k too:

 

 

Not surprisingly, the Yggy is worse into 100k than the Altair is into 600 ohms.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Just now, crenca said:

 

Now that is interesting - so this reveals (if I understand it correctly) that the performance revealed by the test is not about the ohm rating but something else entirely - it is not even correlated to the ohm rating...

 

I'm not sure what you're saying. The test is about the harmonic distortion of the DAC - you can see that all the distortion peaks are multiples of the 50Hz fundamental. Most DACs have reasonably low distortion even into punishing 600 ohm loads. But the Yggy showed terrible performance into 600 ohms, so he seems to have given it another go into a benign 100k.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Jud, you calling me 'uncool'? That be fighting talk.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Yes, but the Yggy showed "terrible" performance into 100K ohms as well - worse than the Altair into 600 ohms.

 

No, I don't think the Yggy's performance into 100k is "terrible". Below average for sure.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, crenca said:

Just using the word you used  

 

But I was referring to the Yggy's 600 ohm performance, and not its 100k ohm performance. I never mentioned anything like "terrible 100k performance", because I don't think it is.

 

Mani.

 

24 minutes ago, manisandher said:

But the Yggy showed terrible performance into 600 ohms, so he seems to have given it another go into a benign 100k.

[manisandher]

3 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Also, if you look at the comments posted on the Stereophile review, JA says Schiit's claim of LSBs not being truncated is false because he says the measurements show that they are, in fact, being truncated.

 

When you have 24-bit data but 20-bit DACs, you need to dither those data to match the DAC. Otherwise, simply chopping off the 4 LSBs, called "truncation," reintroduces quantizing distortion. Schiit's Jason Stoddard has subsequently said that the Yggdrasil "rounds" 24-bit data but my measurements suggest that the LSBs of 24-bit data are simply truncated.

 

JA, Stereophile.

[manisandher]

I forgot to add something else important that JA said:

 

Quote

When you have 24-bit data but 20-bit DACs, you need to dither those data to match the DAC. Otherwise, simply chopping off the 4 LSBs, called "truncation," reintroduces quantizing distortion. Schiit's Jason Stoddard has subsequently said that the Yggdrasil "rounds" 24-bit data but my measurements suggest that the LSBs of 24-bit data are simply truncated.

... truncation of the LSBs in 24-bit data reintroduces quantization noise/distortion. Research by people like Bob Katz has shown that this will be audible even with real-world DACs.

 

I'm assuming he's talking about this:

 

 

Earlier, people asked whether these effects, seemingly way down in dB, were audible. Well, apparently they are. Again, they map quite nicely to the comments people made when they heard the Yggy file I posted last year.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

This thread has run its course and has veered so far off the original posters intent...

 

What was his 'original intent'? Let me help you...

 

The OP is a reviewer. He has been sent an Yggy for review. In this circumstance, I think my sharing of factually correct information about the Yggy is perfectly legitimate.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

5 minutes ago, hornytoad said:

" Mani can sniff out a Schiit Yggy topic all the way from the U.K " 

 

 

One of these days, you're going to say something factually correct, but I'll not hold my breath.

 

5 hours ago, manisandher said:

I've just done a quick search for recent Schiit threads here. Let's see how many I've actually posted on, shall we?

 

Just got a Yggdrasil!... Yep!

WyrdSchiit... Nah

Schiit Saga vs Freya... Nah.

Schiit multibit Gungnir vs Modi multibit... Nah

Schiit Yggdrasil driver issues... Nah

Schiit Modi 2 Multibit (iFi iPurifier SPDIF)... Nah

Schiit gungnir unrecognized... Nah

Anyone compared the Ayre Codex toSchiit Yggdrasil?... Nah

Advise needed for mySchiit Bifrost... Nah

Ayre Codex andSchiit multi-bit... Nah

Schiit DACs and 24 bit files on a 16 bit DAC... Nah

...

 

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

9 minutes ago, patagent said:

If Mani's intentions are not malicious (which is a possibility)...

 

I received an email earlier from someone I don't know. Here it is, with my reply below (sender's name removed):

 

Mani:

 

I'm beginning the shopping process for a DAC under $2500.

 

The reviews for Yggy are incredibly positive, and I was set on it, but saw your post here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31284-just-got-a-yggdrasil/?do=findComment&comment=647384

 

And this: “While the processor's analog circuitry is superbly well designed, its digital circuitry appears to have problems with high-level, high-frequency tones, and with the LSBs of 24-bit data. It's possible, of course, that the former will be rare with music, and that the latter will be obscured by the noise floors of recordings. But it does look as if the digital circuitry is not fully optimized. Hopefully, this could be addressed with a firmware upgrade.—John Atkinson” (Please see it here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-yggdrasil-da-processor-measurements)

 

It was like a cold shower, and stopped me dead…

 

Could you please give me a hand here and name a few alternatives, including the one you always refer to as your “regular DAC”, you prefer to Yggy?

 

I trust your opinion, and would appreciate your help very much indeed, Mani!

 

Respectfully,

 

Hi,

 

Is there any way you could audition the Yggy? I’m not sure where you live, but my understanding is that in many countries they offer a refund policy if it doesn’t work out for you. Just because I didn’t like it doesn’t mean you won’t.

 

I don’t think my own DAC is really an alternative to the Yggy – it’s a lot more expensive and needs to be used in a particular way for optimal results. But I’ve read great things about the Holo Spring DAC, and the T&A DAC. I quite liked the Chord 2Qute which I had here for a while, but it needs to be used with a really good power supply for best results.

 

I hope this helps. Good luck with your search!

 

Cheers,

Mani.

 

 

[manisandher]

7 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I don't know to what to attribute the glitch that Atkinson found in the Yggy, Some say it's attributed to the DAC chips and others say that Atkinson goofed and the Yggy "glitch" really isn't there... I don't know.

 

It's real. And bigger than Moffat admits. Here's another measurement taken of the Yggy's output by someone totally independent (and actually a Schiit supporter):

 

 

It's totally attributable to the DAC chips.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

21 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

OMFG, it was Mani!  Dude's got a real axe to grind there!

 

Shock, horror! I commented on the Yggy's glitch a year ago! Hang on, I mentioned that in my first post in this thread:

 

On 3/30/2017 at 9:49 AM, manisandher said:

I mentioned the Yggy's zero-crossing glitching a while ago.

 

Old news.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

3 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

At least now I understand that you're obsessed with the Yggy for some odd reason.

 

The evidence suggests you're wrong:

 

7 hours ago, manisandher said:

I've just done a quick search for recent Schiit threads here. Let's see how many I've actually posted on, shall we?

 

Just got a Yggdrasil!... Yep!

WyrdSchiit... Nah

Schiit Saga vs Freya... Nah.

Schiit multibit Gungnir vs Modi multibit... Nah

Schiit Yggdrasil driver issues... Nah

Schiit Modi 2 Multibit (iFi iPurifier SPDIF)... Nah

Schiit gungnir unrecognized... Nah

Anyone compared the Ayre Codex toSchiit Yggdrasil?... Nah

Advise needed for mySchiit Bifrost... Nah

Ayre Codex andSchiit multi-bit... Nah

Schiit DACs and 24 bit files on a 16 bit DAC... Nah

...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Plus, if these measurements correspond to this sound, people will have this information to help them if they so choose. 

 

That's all I've tried to do from the outset.

 

Sleep time over this side of the pond. Have fun y'all.

 

Mani.