Just got a Yggdrasil!

[manisandher]

I mentioned the Yggy's zero-crossing glitching a while ago. And I personally didn't like the way it sounded compared to my regular DAC - I still have the digital captures of the Yggy's analogue output that clearly demonstrate that the Yggy changes the sound of the original files in a way that my regular DAC doesn't.

 

JA's measurements weren't very complimentary either. He finished his review with this:

 

While the processor's analog circuitry is superbly well designed, its digital circuitry appears to have problems with high-level, high-frequency tones, and with the LSBs of 24-bit data. It's possible, of course, that the former will be rare with music, and that the latter will be obscured by the noise floors of recordings. But it does look as if the digital circuitry is not fully optimized.

 

[Highlights mine.]

 

My feeling was that these shortcomings were indeed audible. But many (most?) Yggy owners love the way it sounds...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

11 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Not this crap again........

 

What parts of my post were crap?

 

That the Yggy has zero-crossing glitching distortion?

That I personally didn't like the sound of the Yggy when I had it here for a few weeks?

That the Yggy has problems with high level, high frequency tones?

That the Yggy has problems with the LSBs of 24-bit data?

 

You don't have to get all upset just because my opinion of the Yggy is different to yours.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

53 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I see one thing on that list that is right. That you don't like the sound of an Yggy.

 

Only one thing? Well, let's have a closer look then. Let's compare the performance of the Yggy with the Auralic Altair, a considerably cheaper DAC.

 

1. Yggy vs. Altair 19.1kHz -4dBFS white noise

 

 

2. Yggy vs. Altair 1kHz -90dBFS noise

 

 

3. Yggy vs. Altair 1kHz -90.31dBFS undithered

 

 

4. Yggy 50Hz -10dBFS into 600 ohms vs. Altair 50Hz 0dBFS into 600 ohms

 

This one's interesting - the Yggy's output had to be reduced due to severe clipping!

 

 

5. Yggy vs. Altair 19+20kHz 0dBFS into 100k ohms

 

 

6. Yggy vs. Altair 11.025kHz -6dBFS

 

 

If anything, I think GUTB's "ouch" was understated. Everything I stated in my earlier post was factually correct.

 

I have nothing against Schiit. I've only tried one of their products, the Yggy. Didn't like what I heard. Looked into it. Found the engineering wanting. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Mani.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[manisandher]

19 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

To me, they made great trade offs. 

 

Auralic seem to have made better ones

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

23 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

In terms of certain measurements and the listening preferences of some people, yes.  De gustibus non disputandem and all that.

 

 

Hey Jud, you know I have a penchant for R2R DACs. I just prefer them to use chips designed specifically for audio, be able to accept the 24/705.6, and have decent measurements (at least an order of magnitude better than the Yggy).

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

How so?

 

Because the Yggy has ended up with below par measured performance in many areas, and below par sound (to my ears). I think they made a massive mistake going for the DAC chips they did. But if you or others like the sound of it, that's fine.

 

I haven't heard the Altair, and probably wouldn't like it much because it uses an SDM chip. But at least its measured performance looks OK.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

52 minutes ago, earnmyturns said:

Measurement truthers out in force again... Very curious...

 

What's really curious is that my experience with the Yggy, listening to it over a few weeks, comparing it to other DACs I have here, seems to be totally overlooked by some. And inferences that I might have an ulterior motive, or be colluding JA are laughable.

 

I listened to the Yggy for a few weeks first. Only after being uncomfortable with its sound did I look into its measurements. If that makes me a 'measurement truther', so be it. (I'd better not look into the measurements of the SET amps I have and love the sound of  .)

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

27 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I now have the Yggy and have played master files of tracks I was there during the recording and mixing process and couldn't disagree any more strongly with Mani.

 

Happy to agree to disagree with our respective subjective evaluations of the Yggy.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

4 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

Let me share this anecdote with you...

 

 

Thanks for sharing. I'm genuinely pleased for you. I hope you accept that I'm being totally sincere here.

 

I had the Yggy on home loan because I was thinking of buying one for my office system. You see, I wanted to go the Roon/microRendu route in my office, but the DAC I had there was incompatible with the microRendu, hence my interest in the Yggy. (I did buy a microRendu, and an LPS-1 too, but have recently sold both because I've found a substantially better-sounding Roon solution for my office.) I didn't like the sonic signature of the Yggy and it seems a few people got upset when I started speculating why, going on to accuse me of all sorts of absurd things. Some crazy people in this hobby of ours! (But you don't seem to come across as one.)

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

Have noticed a tendency for users to rate down each other's posts if they're arguing, as "tit for tat."...

 

 

I've given your post a 'like' .

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Especially that "filter" he had his buddy do that "Proved" the glitch could be heard.

 

 

The filter didn't prove anything.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

3 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Well, since the newest DACs don't have those "characteristics" any more (much has been changed of late it could well be that you are we are talking apples and oranges, here.. I'm not at liberty to say what all has been changed, and the Yggy that I have is ostensibly one of the first to incorporate those changes. Needless to say, that I doubt seriously that the DAC you tried and the one I was sent do not sound the same.

 

 

I'm glad to hear that Schiit aren't resting on their laurels with the Yggy, and have perhaps listened to the more critical comments that have been made about it, because this sort of feedback is the only way to improve. In my very first post about it last year, I mentioned that it had an alluring sound, but that there were some elements, especially the top end, that I didn't like - too 'splashy' and unrealistic. If they've managed to fix this, your Yggy might well be the sort of DAC I was hoping it'd be when I asked for a home loan last year.

 

I've since moved on myself and am no longer in need of another DAC in my office system. If this wasn't the case, I'd be giving the Yggy another go... once the upgrades you have are made more generally available.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

On 31/03/2017 at 4:47 AM, Rexp said:

What was the Roon solution you went for? Thanks!

 

Nah, not going to go into what I replaced the microRendu/LPS-1 with as a Roon solution. Way too many overly-sensitive people here. You put facts and evidence forward for your point of view on something and instead of counter-argument, they come back with name-calling and ad hominem attacks.

 

Crazy world!

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

9 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

All I see here is people not agreeing with your positions, methods, and conclusions.

 

 

OK, shall we try again then?

 

1. The Yggy has zero-crossing glitching distortion.

 

 

JA referred to these as "significant errors at the signal's zero-crossing points" [highlight mine]. Perhaps these are inaudible, but perhaps they're not.

 

2. The Yggy has problems with high level, high frequency tones.

 

 

I had a quick look at the other DACs Stereophile had reviewed and couldn't find anything anywhere near as bad as this. Do you really think this is going to be inaudible?

 

3. The Yggy has problems with the LSBs of 24-bit data.

 

 

The 24 bit noise is correlated with the signal, and peaks up above the 16 bit noise at certain points. You don't think this is going to be audible?

 

So, what are your counter-arguments?

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Can you help us understand what these issues around -130 db will sound like? 

 

Chris, without knowing the bandwidth of the FFT bins used in the plots above, I'm not sure how to determine at exactly what level the issues with the Yggy sit. But I suspect they're well above -130dB.

 

Someone with more FFT experience might be able to help out here.

 

Mani.

 

Edit: can't seem to get rid of this graph (which I originally thought might be of some help)...

 

[manisandher]

On 4/3/2017 at 6:30 PM, gmgraves said:

Since all that spuriae shown in your #2 and #3 is more than 120 dB down, you're damn right, it's inaudible!

 

The spuriae in #3 are 120dB down. But in #2, they sit at around -95dB within the audible band, and around -85dB just outside it - and not 120dB as you claim. And this is for a benign 100k load - they'd be a lot worse for more difficult loads. I mean, just look at the Yggy's output of a 50Hz tone into a difficult load:

 

 

Note here that the Yggy's output had to be reduced by 10dB due to clipping, whereas the Altair breezes through this test.

 

On 4/3/2017 at 6:30 PM, gmgraves said:

You should really listen to gear before condemning it based on measurements that you don't seem to understand.

 

I understand the measurements perfectly well thanks. And as has been pointed out to you already, I've listened extensively to the Yggy.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

On 4/3/2017 at 11:50 PM, 4est said:

 

And it was his issues with sonics that lead him to finding those measurements and his subsequent forum thread- not the other way around.

 

It seems that some people have an issue with relating the measured performance of the Yggy to how it might sound. In another post a while back, I linked a capture of the Yggy's output and that of my regular DAC. These are the (blind) comments other people made:

 

Yggy:

- Too tizzy (HF noise?)

- Sharper leading transients

- More sizzle (increase around 5kHz?)

- More (artificial?) detail?

- more sharply etched

- "crisper"

- not as "full"

- "detailed, dry, analytical" [type of systems]

- better clarity & focus

 

My regular DAC:

- More realistic

- a little clearer

- you can hear the pluck then resonances [on bass strings] very nicely

- sharper piano

- most realistic sound

- good all rounder

- smidgen too detailed

- somewhat metallic edge on piano

- more detail on drums

- more sharply etched

- more detailed

- more dynamic

 

[Happy to put the files back up for anyone who's interested.] Take a look at the Yggy comments. Take a look at the Stereophile measurements. Yeah, I think there's a correlation.

 

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

3 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Since the Yggy is only designed to output a line level signal, what is the point in testing it under a "difficult" load?

 

It was a 600 ohm line level load. No DAC worth its salt should have a problem with this.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

On 4/4/2017 at 0:57 AM, Speed Racer said:

First of all, he is the only one hearing this "problem".

 

Uh... no. Many others heard exactly what I did (in the Yggy file I posted) - see comments in earlier post.

 

On 4/4/2017 at 0:57 AM, Speed Racer said:

Second, he has never been able to prove that what he hears and dislikes is the glitch.

 

Something we actually agree on.

 

On 4/4/2017 at 0:57 AM, Speed Racer said:

Finally, the designer of the DAC says you can't hear the glitch.

 

Just because he can't hear it doesn't mean it's inaudible to others. He also claims that it's only 4µV RMS, when it's clearly more like 30µV on all the measurements I've ever seen, including Stereophile's:

 

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

 

On 4/1/2017 at 7:44 PM, manisandher said:

Way too many overly-sensitive people here. You put facts and evidence forward for your point of view on something and instead of counter-argument, they come back with name-calling and ad hominem attacks.

 

11 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

I blocked manisandher because his posts are useless to me and I am tired of reading his drivel.

 

I rest my case.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Quote

On 4/1/2017 at 7:44 PM, manisandher said:

You put facts and evidence forward for your point of view on something and instead of counter-argument, they come back with name-calling and ad hominem attacks.

 

 

Quote

2 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

I blocked manisandher because his posts are useless to me and I am tired of reading his drivel.

 

 

Quote

10 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

Haters gonna hate.

 

Ah, now we're separating the wheat from the chaff.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Many months ago, another Yggy thread here got "Mola Mola"-ed.  This isn't an issue of "preference", it's a concerted effort to create a significant volume of negative Yggy posts on social media.

 

Ad hominem.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, hornytoad said:

Mani is simply a Schiit hater .

 

Ad hominem. (How many times am I going to have to point this out?)

 

I've just done a quick search for recent Schiit threads here. Let's see how many I've actually posted on, shall we?

 

Just got a Yggdrasil!... Yep!

WyrdSchiit... Nah

Schiit Saga vs Freya... Nah.

Schiit multibit Gungnir vs Modi multibit... Nah

Schiit Yggdrasil driver issues... Nah

Schiit Modi 2 Multibit (iFi iPurifier SPDIF)... Nah

Schiit gungnir unrecognized... Nah

Anyone compared the Ayre Codex toSchiit Yggdrasil?... Nah

Advise needed for mySchiit Bifrost... Nah

Ayre Codex andSchiit multi-bit... Nah

Schiit DACs and 24 bit files on a 16 bit DAC... Nah

 

(Too bored with this to continue.)

 

The evidence suggests you're wrong. But hey, why look at evidence and data formulate conclusions?

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

10 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

 I get it Mani, you don't like the Yggy. Others love it.

 

This is exactly what I said in my very first post in this thread...

 

On 3/30/2017 at 9:49 AM, manisandher said:

My feeling was that these shortcomings were indeed audible. But many (most?) Yggy owners love the way it sounds...

 

... but you choose to register only what you want, it seems.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

25 minutes ago, hornytoad said:

Your arguments with one of the owners of Schiit Audio in an earlier Yggdrasil thread suggest otherwise. 

You will never be too bored to ridicule the Schiit Yggdrasil . 

 

In the list I showed, 3 threads specifically mentioned the Yggdrasil. I have posted in only 1 of those 3. The evidence suggests you're wrong... yet again.

 

Mani.