A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Johnseye]

17 minutes ago, afrancois said:

Thank you for confirming.

I just did a small test with a portable radio set to LW 144 Khz and I can confirm that my audio equipment is subject to much noise. The closer I get to the electric distribution box, 24 port router, security camera boxes and the cable modem the more noise I get. Almost all my audio equipment is in the garage. There are clearly quieter places in my house. So I hope that the 3M paper will help.

 

It will help.  I was surprised how dark the background is by comparison.  The instruments stand out more as a result.  My equipment is side by side and stacked and surrounded by 3 speakers and a sub.  A lot of cabling and equipment in the area.

 

I'm also tempted to try ferrite on some cables.

 

My only question and concern is can there be too much shielding?  That was something Roy mentioned Lee stating; not to overdo it with the EMI paper.  How could it be overdone and to what effect?

[Johnseye]

19 minutes ago, afrancois said:

Where did you put the paper? On the inside of the cover of the DAC? I've just ordered 3 sheets :-)

 

The inside top and sides.  Basically where there were large spaces for application.

 

8 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Not sure how much "shedding" there might be from the ABxxxx sheets but I know there is a cautionary statement on using ERS paper that it contains conductive fibers which potentially cause problems with circuitry.  I actually put mine into clear sheet protectors before placing on top of components.  The ABxxxx do contain metallic particles  which may have the same issue.  There are some of these sheets which are a foil which I would expect to have less of a problem in this regards.

 

I don't know if there will be shedding either.  Maybe blow out the chassis with an air canister every 1/2 year or so.  This product is advertised to be stuck directly on the back of chips so the only concern would be if enough metallic shedding fell to create a bridge somewhere there shouldn't be one.  I suspect the likelihood of that to be slim.

[Johnseye]

8 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

This might help

 

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1128-can-the-guys-whove-used-emirfi-paper-sotm-3m-etc-post-photos-here-of-how-you-did-it/

 

Thanks for sharing Lebouwsky.  After I read through that thread I went back and applied individual pieces to each chip in my DAC, on top of my server's proc heatsink and SSD chips.  I have another motherboard and memory on the way which will go to SOtM along with a switch so will look to covering more of my server, including under the mobo as well as the RAM and other select chips on the mobo itself.  I honestly can't tell if covering each individual chip helped.  The change was so dramatic by covering the top and sides of the cases that by comparison it's minuscule.  That tells me there was significant EMI or RF noise coming from outside the devices.  If there were a lot coming from inside then covering the chips would have had a bigger impact.

 

I'm glad I opened up the DAC again.  We have been discussing what would happen if shedding occurred.  Well the powder coating of my DACs case turns out not to be very good for adhesives.  The top and one side of the 3M absorber had fallen off.  I suspect in an enclosed case without any vents it heats up inside and that also affected the adhesion.  I reattached them more firmly this time and will check tomorrow.  I may have to superglue the pieces on.  The pieces in my server stuck just fine, but it doesn't get very hot inside that case. 

 

In addition to the darker/blacker/quieter background which I would equate to a lower noise floor the bass has opened up significantly.  I also hear a softening or maybe the opposite of there being less of an audible digital edge describes it better.  I would consider this as a step closer to what I hear when listening to vinyl.

 

7 hours ago, mozes said:

@Johnseye

when you have some time, can you pls share your impressions of the PH SR7.

 

6 hours ago, beautiful music said:

+1

 

I need to do this.  I've opened up the case and taken pictures of everything.  I've made those recent changes with the EMI shielding which impacted the sound so I didn't want to confuse any A - B comparisons on the SR7 until that was sorted.  I have to put back the HDPlex power supply into my server to do the comparison.  I should be able to do that tomorrow, but I'm also working on a paper and project for my MBA so time's been limited.

 

What to compare with the SR7:

 

SR7 12v DR vs HDPlex

SR7 19v vs HDPlex

SR7 12v DR vs SR7 19v

SR7 9v vs LPS1 @ 7v (I still have to figure out how to lower the SR7's voltage with the potentiometer.  It requires the adjustment of a dial inside the case along with a voltage measurement)

 

The SR7 vs LPS1 is also challenging because I'm using them both currently to power the sMS-200 and ISO Regen.  If I test one against the other I'll have to stop using the Regen to compare and my ears have become accustom to its sound.  Not a big deal, just another variable.

 

[Johnseye]

9 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

This might help

 

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1128-can-the-guys-whove-used-emirfi-paper-sotm-3m-etc-post-photos-here-of-how-you-did-it/

 

I specifically liked this comment.  Looks like one can't overdo it based on this person's experience.  Although there is the risk from increased heat.  Something I'll have to monitor in my DAC.

 

It's also worth noting that when you cut the sheet the cut edges are conductive but the face of the sheet is not.  This guy kyrill recommends taping the edges in certain situations.

 

"Crucially, though, computer transports aren't producing analog output. We don't need to worry about tailoring a frequency response or spoiling a pre-set balance. We're looking only to tame and contain the white noise melée of RF radiated by the board and its power supply that will otherwise bounce around the case and feedback into signal paths. The more absorption you use, the quieter the electrical environment of the case and the closer we reach the holy grail of the computer delivering 'only noughts and ones'. It's hard to see (and hear) how you can overdo absorption in a digital device."

[Johnseye]

7 hours ago, afrancois said:

Does this mean you will be inserting some 3M in your sMS-200?

 

My intention is to eliminate the sMS-200.  With the new motherboard I'll add a tx-USBexp and either convert that to an Ultra with a sCLK or txUSBultra.  Haven't decided which yet.  It's either add the txUSBultra and don't update my switch clock or add the txUSBultra because of the limited number of taps available.  Theoretically I shouldn't need the txUSBultra with a txUSBexp so that's likely the route I'll take.  Just waiting for confirmation from May.

 

I will be putting the 3M absorber in all devices possible except speakers of course.

[Johnseye]

6 hours ago, beautiful music said:

Does anyone attend the “Beyond Off-The-Shelf DAC Chips” seminar by Rob Watts in RMAF occasion?

 

Better yet, has anyone made any video of this or other events?  Nothing up on YouTube yet.

[Johnseye]

Just now, lmitche said:

A brand new txUSBexp arrived in the mail yesterday.  It's breaking in now.

 

Nice. Looking forward to your impressions and comparison to the other SOtM components.

[Johnseye]

23 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

This might help

 

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1128-can-the-guys-whove-used-emirfi-paper-sotm-3m-etc-post-photos-here-of-how-you-did-it/

 

Some more good reading on the topic.

 

https://interferencetechnology.com/introduction-to-composite-electromagnetic-noise-absorber-technology-1/

 

 

[Johnseye]

6 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

With all due respect, Larry, you haven't heard the benefits from these Chord components either or sCLK-EX mobo.  It's not hard to draw a line from current mobos and how increased processing/power can have a negative effect on SQ, without an sCLK-EX. 

 

Although I have tried HQP in the past and didn't find any benefit, as Austinpop, I also have not heard the fullest upsampling benefits/disbenefits due to my DAC limitations for receiving such a stream.  That being said, with the sCLK-EX, as I stated before, I think the benefits may definitely be swinging in the direction of the high powered mobo via sCLK-EX, if a power supply of high standards can be had.

 

The SR7 can handle it.  The only issue is connecting it to an ATX input and for that you would introduce something like the HDPlex or pico adapters.  I've searched unsuccessfully for a better adapter.

[Johnseye]

19 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm a software guy! 

 

I understand the system concepts of course, but was never been attracted to building computers from parts. 

 

8 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Well with your local contacts, I am sure you could find someone to build an upsampling machine for you. If not, let me know.

 

I'd be happy to build you one.  Seriously, it's something I enjoy as a hobby.

[Johnseye]

HQ Player upsampling PCM on a low power server with a proc and memory throttled to 800 MHz runs fine and sounds beautiful.  The only thing requiring some high processing power is DSD256 or 512 and I would argue that can be done with low power as well. Do you really need a high power video card to offload processing power?

[Johnseye]

16 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I don't use a video card with Hqplayer here.  Dsd512 is achieved without one.

 

My comment wasn't directed specifically at you as there are many who do this.  Your response shows it can be done without a video card offload.

 

8 minutes ago, lmitche said:

The Antec ISK 110 case http://store.antec.com/isk-series/isk110-vesa.html makes a great case enclosure for a low power mini-itx embedded processor board. It's secret is that it includes a 19 volt SMPS power supply with a DC input jack, connected to a 90 watt hdplex-like DC to DC ATX power supply.  This makes the SMPS easy to replace with an lps.

 

I hacked mine so that I could a/b test the internal DC to DC supply vs. a pico supply.  The Antec device won.  Anyway, I'm not using it anymore, but liked it when I did.

 

Good suggestion.  The use of the HDplex adapter is something I would consider if I didn't have a DC in jack or wanted a board with 24 pin ATX.  If I go the Optane route one day that may happen.  I've been told the HDplex adapter would degrade the LPSU used but haven't tried it.  I've also been told using a Y splitter degrades the power but many do without noticing a difference.  Again I haven't tried that but may.

[Johnseye]

10 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I have a 300 watt hdplex DC to DC SMPS  as well. It's been a while, but I can't remember hearing any difference between the Antec solution above and the hdplex. I used a 19 volt sigma 11 lps to power both.

 

My testing used ASRock j1900 and n3700 embedded processor motherboards. 

 

I guess you could say I've been all over the low power rig thing already. All this stuff is unused at the moment.

 

I take it the processors on those boards couldn't handle DSD512?

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, ted_b said:

For multichannel DSD upsampling, yes, the CUDA offload is a real thing and is required when I'm in that mode.  However, for what I do in 2 channel (DSD to DSD512 and PCM to 352/384 ...a review dac I have does 768 and 512) the card is not needed in my i7 6700k server.  And Larry does PCM to DSD, a more cpu-intensive upsample, and he doesn't need CUDA either.

 

Sorry for the hijack; this should be discussed in HQPlayer threads but oh well. 

 

Thanks.  Good to know about multichannel upsampling.

I don't think it's a highjack.  It qualifies as improving the sound of audio streaming.  No need to jump to another thread.

[Johnseye]

11 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Roy could run this test. Bit Perfect to Blu to DAVE vs. HQP (768 upsample, chosen filters) to DAVE vs. All Three in combo.

 

Use the sCLK-EX modified server and any fixers appropriate or none. 

Question would be if the low power server would choke on HQP.  I wouldn't think so but with only 2GB of memory?

 

2GB is low. My server will use that on average. 

[Johnseye]

9 minutes ago, lmitche said:

My machine runs with 1.7 GB bytes of memory with Windows Roon and Hqplayer all running.

 

What did you do to trim it down?  I use AO and disabled what additional services I knew weren't needed and am still at 2.3GB.  Roon itself takes up 900MB with RAAT another 100MB.  I'm also using 2016 Server, but would think that has less overhead.  I have some trimming to do.

[Johnseye]

19 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I run the scripts in the windows optimization thread, and the strip windows command in AO. Also remove stuff from windows in appwiz.cpl like internet explorer. Use tightvnc instead of remote desktop. . . . . . And so on.

 

Would you mind pointing me to those scripts?  I did a search but came up dry. Thanks.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, afrancois said:

I received my 3 sheets of 3M AB5100SHF-210X297 today and used them around the sMS-200 ultra, MC3+ USB and even under some of my LPS-1’s with very good results.

I’m so satisfied that I immediately ordered extra 5 sheets. I still got a lot of equipment that could potentially benefit from this miracle paper. DAC’s, power amplifiers and headphone amplifier.

Perhaps not everybody will benefit as much as I do. Most of my equipment is in the garage and it seems a rather noisy environment.
 

 

Glad to hear you had positive results.  As I mentioned my results were similarly impressive and my equipment is in a dedicated listening room with the only equipment causing noise being the listening equipment itself and maybe some canned lighting if its even on or impactful.

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

No - what I was terribly disappointed to hear was this:

 

 

He will be sorely missed.

 

Agreed.  What a wealth of knowledge, not to mention deep pockets to help with testing  He's also a very helpful person, providing detailed explanations for tests conducted or questions answered.  Hopefully he pops in on occasion to share in any new discoveries he makes.  This thread has inspired many with revisited ideas like the EMI sheets, to new experiments with motherboard clocking.

 

Cheers Roy.

[Johnseye]

19 minutes ago, sig8 said:

General question on EMI sheets;

 

Can it just be just placed on top of say a DAC, or maybe taped with a painters masking tape on top and bottom? It should do its job. I do not really want to open and glue this inside, because my DAC does not have any vents and do not know what will happen to this sheet inside with heat.

 

 

 

 

My dac has no vents either.  The sheet has an adhesive.  I cut pieces and stuck them on top of each chip of the dac's board.  I cut pieces to fit the sides and cover of the dac chassis.  At first the sides and top didn't stick, but that's because the chassis is powder coated.  With a lot more pressure they finally stuck, but I could peal the sheet pieces off very easily.  You could also tape them inside the dac.  The tape will need to be pretty strong as the sheet has some weight to it, depending on the size of your cuts.  Once you try it out with tape, you may want to peal the adhesive or glue it in more permanently if you like what it provides.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, Kritpoon said:

 

Thank you for the report. Did you put the sheets inside or side the equipment case?

 

Look at my earlier posts.  Attach them inside.  The idea is that the EMI/RF is prevented from bouncing around inside the case as well as shielding the outside.

[Johnseye]

48 minutes ago, guillaume31 said:

For folks in Europe, no need to order from the US, you can find the 3M sheets on Mouser (I'm not sure where they are sent from but all taxes are inclusive)

 

When installing pieces of this sheet onto a chip, is it best to have it cover the chip only or also its "legs" ?

 

Thanks

 

I wouldn't have any of the sheet touch the legs.  When you cut to fit the chips you can go over I think.  I did and haven't experienced any issue.  I didn't press down on the sheet pieces over the legs, but do expect it to sag and touch them over time.  The metallic pieces inside the sheet are supposed to be covered by a poly so only the edges which get cut will expose metal.  You can tape the edges if you have the inclination.

[Johnseye]

7 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Here is an update on my revisited evaluation of HQPlayer for my use. My original (pre-trifecta) evaluation was in this post on another thread:

 

This time, I was able to run another evaluation with the latest 3.18 version of HQPlayer. The difference is I am now on a far more resolving digital chain with far better SQ. Would this enable me to hear differences that I didn't previously deem significant? I'd like to thank @lmitche and @auricgoldfinger for their help with optimizing my settings, and general HQPlayer navigation.

 

Since this is such a well-known and well-liked product, I am going to cut to the chase - I am going to buy myself a copy of HQPlayer.

 

Key facts:

1. Recall my DAC does DSD over DoP, so supports only DSD128, while supporting PCM384
2. My music listening is > 50% hi-rez (DSD or 24/44.1-384)

Summary of Findings:

1. DSD64 tracks: no benefit, either upsampled to DSD128 or PCM384
2. 24-bit tracks: the SQ benefit by upsampling to PCM384 seems to be inversely related to sample rate. So 24/44.1 benefits the most, while 24/384 the least. That seems logical. Also, upsampling to DSD128 was not as pleasing. It seemed like all the edges had been rounded off. Polite, but not engaging.
3. Redbook 16/44.1 tracks: universal improvement across the board, but the magnitude of improvement varied by track.

Overall, I'd still say the improvements were modest, not earth-shattering. Still, for the very reasonable cost, it is a no-brainer. Until I switch DACs, I can accommodate the above findings by setting all PCM tracks to upsample to PCM384, while checking DirectSDM to bypass upsampling for DSD.

 

Are you using the xtr filter?  What are your settings? 

 

I found this interesting from Miska. 

 

"I created it for people who like Chord Dave -style filters. It is about 5 times longer than 
poly-sinc and thus about 5x heavier. Offered in linear- and minimum-phase variants. Stop-band 
attenuation exceeds needs of 40-bit PCM, being over -240 dB. Normal poly-sinc filters are created to reach excess of 32-bit PCM resolution (> -192 dB) stop-band attenuation."

[Johnseye]

8 minutes ago, mozes said:

The interface is what keeps me away from HQPlayer.  I am used to the convenience of Jriver, but I always keep my eyes open. Have you tried no upsampling to check if HQplayer is still sonically superior playing files at native sampling rates?

 

You can use Roon with HQP. No need to use its native interface. 

[Johnseye]

I own JRiver as well and have for... Many moons. A lot to like. You can try Roon with HQPlayer for free. At least you'll know.