A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, numlog said:

Cool, for my external supplies I may have inadvertently minimized that problem. toroids were used and the whole supply is inside the  PC case, with no mains earthing, the 0V path isnt too much longer with them.

 

That doesn't sound too much like an inadvertent solution to me. 

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Thanks Sandy, I am happy you found a simple solution that works well for you.

 

 Unfortunately, it is a DIY solution, that many members can't employ due to lack of internal space for additional low noise voltage regulation and isolation between sections.

That's where things like the J.S designed replacement Uptone  Linear PSU for the Mac Mini come into their own as a good starting point.

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, drjimwillie said:

She is working from home today so I am having the mental debate of, do I  go in and listen to the system as it is to find out more about the subtleties or sneak in, pull out my computer, open it remove the SSD before I’m discovered, put it back together and then listen to it.  

 

Not a good idea if you prefer marital harmony, or at least some semblance of it.

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, RickyV said:

If you parallel LT3045's you lower the noisefloor tenfold, but if you them in series, which is the suggestion, the noisefloor could theoretically be reduced one hundred fold. 

 No !

You can't reduce the LT3045 voltage regulator's noise floor further by putting them in series, any more than you can by daisy chaining the old LM317 etc. You will achieve some Pre regulation though, which makes the job of the next one easier.

 However, if you use the standard value and type bypass capacitors for the LT3045s you WILL gain a little added HF detail which may not be such a good idea, and perhaps result in a tonal imbalance.

[sandyk]

59 minutes ago, RickyV said:

What I did say is that it is a great regulator designed for audio, don't know the specs yet.

 

Nowhere in the Data sheets is there any mention of it being designed/ suitable for HiFi.
It is more designed for use with low noise instrumentation. etc.

APPLICATIONS

RF Power Supplies: PLLs, VCOs, Mixers, LNAs, PAs

nn Very Low Noise Instrumentation

nn High Speed/High Precision Data Converters

nn Medical Applications: Imaging, Diagnostics

nn Precision Power Supplies

nn Post-Regulator for Switching Supplies

(See attached Data Sheet)

 

However, this does not mean that it can't be made eminently suitable for Hi Fi use, especially with very low output Moving Coil cartridges etc. It also works very well with DAC Input stage use etc.

 

 Re " the noise floor could theoretically be reduced one hundred fold.  "

 LTG2010 and lmitchie claimed that , and you quoted that from LTG2010 in your reply. You clearly did NOT disagree or you would have said so in that reply

LT3045fa.pdf

[sandyk]

50 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

LT3045's have variable characteristics, regarding voltage drop and can also  heat up very quickly, so their is a benefit of a series circuit

 Yes, where the supply is several volts above the output voltage, using a pre-regulator is worthwhile to prevent overheating of the LT3045.  In that case you would be better off placing an additional higher value normal type electrolytic capacitor at the output of the pre regulator which is mainly being used like a dropping resistor. In fact, you may have even been able to use a suitable voltage 5W Zener diode, or low value PW5 resistor in series instead to drop the excess voltage.  The extra capacitance in conjunction with the resistance of the Zener diode also results in some additional ripple rejection.

 If a LT3045 was used directly after a bridge rectifier with a typical filter capacitor of 1,000uF to 4,700uF, the LT3045 would be more suitable for Hi Fi use as well, but you would need to make sure that the voltage drop wasn't high enough to cause overheating.

 Note also, that on numerous occasions Micael has also reported obtaining additional HF detail when " daisy chaining" LT3045s.

 The main problem when doing this is ensuring that the 0 volts (" earth")  reference isn't degraded by the extra wiring resistance .

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

Separate LPS on the SSD would help?

 

Or separate low noise  +5V 1A voltage regulators powered from the internal +12V supply for each SSD.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, elan120 said:

External DC power connection setup for Startech USB3.1 Gen2 PCIe card - Part 2

 

Follow up on the Audio Sensibility Neotech silver JSSG360 DC cable, and a big thank you to @auricgoldfinger for recommending this cable.  I have it installed today, and like the result very much, and now I will be recommending this cable as well.

 

Here is a picture showing the new cable:

 

I hope that the barrel of the DC socket is INSULATED from the metal frame of the card in order to prevent possible earth loops ? (The picture does not show whether the 0 volts (earth side) is connected  to the metalwork or not.)

[sandyk]

15 hours ago, lmitche said:

I don't know the underlying mechanism that contributes to the observed differences.

 

Microwave Ovens Operate at 2.45 GHz, and this spectrum is shared with many other devices.

[sandyk]

24 minutes ago, numlog said:

Has it been established through listening tests how important the temperature stability of a clock is?

Some will argue high temperature stability isnt important at all for audio, 50ppm being the ''redbook standard''.

The highend clocks I seen were all OCXOs, but with insanely low jitter anyway.

 

The best affordable choice for low jitter clocks are some of the Crystek line, but there some similarly affordable TCXOs with much higher temperature stability and worse, but still good, jitter.

 

I got great results with my old highly modified Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 by replacing the 50PPM oscillator with first a .3PPM TCXO , then a further small improvement with a .1 PPM 5V 24.576MHZ TCXO. The improvement was most marked with 24/96 and 24/192 , but not so much with 16/44.1 You could hear the SQ jump up a notch after a couple of minutes from switch on.

 A friend of mine reported the same improvement with his X-DAC V3 when he fitted my previous .3PPM TCXO

 I also powered them using a much lower noise power supply. A LT3045 PCB may work well there too, without overheating from a +12V supply as the current draw should be much less than 50mA ?  

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, Ossanboy said:

Hi Guys,

 

Halo, I just joined this forum recently I stumbled upon it when researching about network switcher for streaming audio.

 

I only found out about JSSG 360   yesterday. I want to try it first with my power amplifier internal wiring. The cable I use is Mogami W3104 11AWG (speaker cable). It sounds amazing but I want to try to JSSG360 every single one of them. Will this be beneficial ?

 

 

Thank you

 

Personally, I would only bother trying it on the input cables. Even then, because the amplifier is normally inside a metal case it may not achieve too much as radiated RF/EMI from external sources will be pretty well excluded already, and proper internal layout with good quality shielded cables should be adequate to protect against PSU related RF/EMI ingress. (e.g. rectifier diode switching artifacts etc.)

The amplifier output leads are usually pretty short, and may even be direct from onboard PCB sockets.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Balázs said:

I am no expert at all but I think the slower regulators don't really matter if they are before the faster ones in the regulation chain.

 

 In fact they will make life easier for the faster regulators that will then see a much more stable voltage input, and only need to deal with HF rubbish that can sail almost unattenuated through a generic slower voltage regulator. 

 However it may be worthwhile to increase the capacitance at the output of the slower regulator to help maintain a flatter output impedance to well past 100kHz. Remember that the LT3045 etc.  are designed mainly for extremely low noise performance for instrumentation power supplies , and the manufacturers make no claims in their Data sheet as to their suitability for Hi Fi Audio.

 

See also post #13999 by sunny_time_99

[sandyk]

23 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Mindful of @bobfa's point that these general topics are OT in the Shootout thread, I'm posting this here.

 

 

If there is one "new" finding in all of this recent progress, it is that combined with all the previously known optimizations of clean power, separate CPU power, linear supplies, better clocks, etc., running with a very powerful CPU like the i7-8700K provides a level of dynamism and clarity we have not heard from the low-powered CPU approach of the likes of the ZENith SE, the sMS-200ultra, and even the NUCs.

 

However the key thing here is that we operate these massively powerful CPUs at very low utilization - as we see with the non-upsampling use cases of Roon or Stylus.

 

Once you add upsampling into the mix, all bets are off, as it remains to be seen what the effect of that energy consumption due to high CPU utilization will be on:

1. the ability of fanless cases to cope with the added heat
2. the effect CPUs running at very high temps on SQ.

I had a chat with Nuno @nvitorino about this at Munich. I asked him if he would consider incorporating our findings in his server line - i.e. something like a ZENith or Statement containing powerful i7 and i9 cores. He said it was OK for us hobbyists to go this route, as we have the skill and knowledge to control our workloads and ensure we ran at very low utilizations. As a commercial vendor, he cannot control what people do with the box, and his concern is that people who try to do heavy DSP and upsampling may not get the SQ benefit - indeed, they may get the opposite effect. Also, this would put a strain on the PSUs, since they would have to design the PSUs for the heaviest case, which would require far more powerful and expensive PSUs than are currently in those boxes.

 

So this is a valid concern.

 

 

Hi Rajiv

 I agree 100% with the importance of all these things, and note that several years ago in Hi Fi Critic magazine they also reported that the faster processors resulted in improved performance.

 Perhaps their noise profiles are pushed further up the Spectrum ?

As you say, heat becomes the main problem with smaller and affordable cases.

Kind Regards

Alex

 

 

[sandyk]

36 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Not bad that a cheap USB 3 coupler may beat a USB cable worth $200 ?! 

 

 Don't forget though, that if your PC/Server is using a front USB port that you may already have an internal cheap USB cable up to 18"  long connecting to the motherboard's USB port  !

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, bobfa said:

I think I will enjoy it for now!

 

A good idea. Getting thoroughly familiar with it  now, will make changes either way easier to pick next time.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, LTG2010 said:

Sounds like a beast of a PS very low impedance, should have great dynamics. Shame a head to head with the SR7 can't be arranged.

I had considered starting a Sean Jacobs thread a few months ago, but Sean being the modest person he is didn't want (or need) the publicity. Maybe you might want to start one detailing your supply / project, since you seem to have taken your build to the current pinnacle of Sean's work.

 

Are you able to post an internal photo of Sean's PSU with the 400VA toroidal transformer ?

 I have no doubts as to the high quality of Sean's work, having seen photos of it first hand when Sean was a member of the same U.K. based forum some years ago, which is why I recommended him fairly recently in the forum.

[sandyk]

21 minutes ago, numlog said:

good point, so it is one, albeit a very unconventional one.

 

or on second thought audio signals implies to me there would be a analogue conversion, no?

 

Most soundcards have Analogue and Digital Inputs, as well as decoded Analogue outputs and a Digital output via Optical or Coax SPDIF and sometimes both. (example attached)

 

 

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Aren't you really describing a DAC or at least the CHIP part of the DAC (if chip is used)? So a sound card has a little signa-delta DAC chip inside ? 

 

Soundcards usually provide both A to D, and D to A conversion., often with a microphone input as well.

 I have attached a .pdf of the Asus Xonar D2X Soundcard that I am using. There are even better ones available these days.

Asus_xonar_d2x.pdf

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

you can see the 'Statement' supply below to get an idea of quality:

http://www.the-ear.net/how-to/power-supply-design-innuos-statement

Thanks for posting that. It's interesting to read Sean's philosophy .

 Personally, I believe that a low impedance output that is fairly flat over the range from D.C. to >100kHz and to even 1mHz, gives the best results. Far too many ultra low noise PSUs these days have way lower output impedance at 100kHz and higher, than in the VF range.

 

[sandyk]

29 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Yes, and based on recent conversion with Mattijs, the 12A version is 3 to 6 month out.

 

The moment that you put a voltage regulator AFTER Supercaps you degrade the potential of the Supercaps, as different types of voltage regulators and their necessary lower value capacitors will affect the ultimate results .

 You ideally need to find a way to regulate the current and voltage into the bank of Supercaps for output voltage stability.

[sandyk]

14 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Not sure why you post this information quoted with my post that was answering someone else's question.  Since I have no faintest idea on what you are proposing, but sounds like some design ideas you have, it will be best if you address these to the manufacture directly, as you are clearly picked a wrong tree to bark here.

 

You appear to be promoting the Farad power supplies, so other members have the right to know of any possible drawbacks to using such a supply over other the many excellent designs available  from other manufacturers such as Uptone , Sean Jacobs etc..

 N.B.

 I am not suggesting that this particular PSU doesn't perform very well indeed, just that using Ultracaps ahead of a voltage regulator does not make it necessarily superior to other topologies.

[sandyk]

9 minutes ago, elan120 said:

To me, you acted overly sensitive, and there is no reason to take up more continued discussion here, so please STOP after this Off-Topic discussion.

 

I would suggest that members wait until Rajiv who also has wide experience in these areas completes the burning in of his new PSU and has had a chance to compare it with others that he has used.

 It is so easy to make expensive mistakes when purchasing after market power supplies, and it is best to wait until there are plenty of confirming reports before purchasing items like this.

[sandyk]

45 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

This is good point, the Farad does NOT offer voltage regulation, correct ? Or does it ?

 

Yes, it does have voltage regulation AFTER the Ultracaps as many other supplies such as that from Uptone do.

Uptone does however report that their lower current supply is almost perfectly isolated from the A.C. mains side , although there is a still a small amount of residual HF coupling due to the internal capacitances of the parallel switching transistors used.

 The main drawback with the currently available Ultracap supply from Uptone is it's smaller output current capabilities.

 Sean Jacobs has gone an entirely different route using several separate transformer windings, and separate voltage regulation for each of the voltage outputs, combined with large value high quality Mundorf output  filter capacitors on each supply rail.

 

There is more than one way to skin a cat !

 

I would suggest that people wait for Rajiv and others to post their subjective findings before purchasing such expensive items where there may be several months before delivery.

 

Alex

[sandyk]

28 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Kindly stop, or I will go back and delete these posts.

Please do.

I just wanted people to see your reports before jumping in and purchasing an expensive item without confirming reports

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, RickyV said:

I believe you also need to limit the current when the super caps are empty. It's almost seen as a short circuit for the regulator. 

 

This also applies to the John Linsley Hood designed PSU add-on that I use, as the simulated capacity of the capacitance multiplier section is typically around 2 FARADS in my modified version, and would draw a destructive current if not limited at switch on.

 This does of course result in a time delay before the unit is fully operational in both cases. With lower current versions of the JLH I use the inbuilt current limiting action of the voltage regulator to achieve this. This of course doesn't help with the huge current capacity of the SMPS in many PCs which would result in a destroyed voltage regulator as well.

 In that case, I use a series resistor at the input to limit the inrush current, with a relay at the output to s/c the series resistor as the voltage at the output gets close to the nominal output voltage when the large capacitance nears fully charged.,

 A similar scheme could be used with Ultracaps ?