A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[ted_b]

Seatrope, nice post!  Well-written, easy to follow and, if it makes me personally succeed in this, a geniune classic! I've never heard of this approach, but makes sense logically.  Maybe folks like AudioPhil (AudiophileOptimzer) could add this to his setup wizard (he already accounts for HQPlayer in a custom shell).  Thanks!  

[ted_b]

11 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Today I took delivery and spent several hours listening to a new SATA Pcie card recommended by Romaz. I disabled the motherboard SATA ports in the bios.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AZ9T41M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

It definitely sounds different, but I can't tell if it sounds better or not.  It needs to break-in and seemed to improve in the first two hours of use. I am definitely hearing new things in familiar tracks, depth is great.  Image weight seems a little lighter but this it may be due to higher precision.  Female sibilance has increased.  However I was able to listen to an entire Norah Jones track, the harsh breathiness of her voice was gone. Mixed bag so far, but I am leaning towards keeping it.  More later.

Larry,

Is this comparison vs SATA or vs M.2 ngff adapted SATA.

[ted_b]

Larry, while I agree that your fiber to USB box is doing little, I think those of us with the NAA architecture (fifo buffer containing actual dac drivers and USB card) is doing more, and I often wonder if these SATA, etc issues are more important to the NAA (uRendu and SOtM notwithstanding) than the server.  And it is quite important to me, for example, as I seriously contemplate some of your recommendations on my server (replace Platinum ps with Titanium, replace SSD with 6TB hdd, thus also "replacing" NAS, install hdd via non-standard M.2 adapter, etc),  Your perspective and results could very well be looked at as quite different than mine, as you are really going direct, per se, and the latencies and driver issues are server-based for you.   I dunno.  This whole thread was predicated on using an NAA or streamer and measuring direct ethernet connections from the server, but now this has evolved (and not a bad thing at all) to overall architectural sq design.  And for that, the architectures of our signal paths are often very different.

 

Oh well, It's not a lot of money to try it, and it is easily undone. 

[ted_b]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

Please do.

+1

[ted_b]

2 hours ago, romaz said:

In my testing, OS drives have the greater impact on SQ compared to music storage drives and this would make intuitive sense.  OS drives are always active and the noise they generate is random, which I believe is the worst type of noise since it's very difficult to adjust to noise that is randomly coming and going.  

 

Since many software players will buffer to memory (Roon buffers 1-2 tracks in advance, as an example), music storage drives will generally go idle and stay idle for longer stretches of time and so their impact on SQ is potentially less, that is provided that the storage drive you choose has very low current draw while idle

So Larry has me testing an all-in-one solution that has my OS (Windows 10) and music on the same hdd, partitioned in two.  I am testing this vs my SSD (older Sandisk) as OS separately powered externally.  The SSD is plugged into an M.2. adapter so being somewhat equal sq gives the nod, so far, to the hdd...but I am still wondering that in the long run the constant activity of one drive to do multiple tasks, including serving my music will not come back to haunt me.  I'd really never experienced the hf issues of SSD.

 

All that being said, I do, however, love the sound of local music vs my Synology NAS, and have chosen 90+% of my go-to music for local storage (6TB).  A "backup" is on my NAS, as is my other 2 channel completist stuff and my multichannel (9+TB).

[ted_b]

4 hours ago, sadekkhalifa said:

Really thanks to Roy @romaz for all your advices and indeed the direct connection raised hole things to a new level.

 

But I'm asking if someone is using jRiver MC21 as my DSD music files didn't went a bit perfect to my DAC, in fact it down sampled to 176 kHz, I don't know why despite I leaved the bits as it is in my jRiver 

 

Check out my JRIver videos in the link below.  Net/net, make sure bitstream is set to DSD.  But more importantly, make sure your DAC is DSD-capable. 

[ted_b]

The PICO PSU takes 12V (I assume, I had a 12V one and a 19V one and used my Hynes both ways, dialing up or down the voltage internally on the Hynes) and delivers it to the peripherals, etc via the 20-24 pins.  At the other end is a female dc input.  Plug the Hynes in there, or find a spot on the case where it attaches to a dc plug.

[ted_b]

6 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Ok then the PICO PSU isn't exactly a full PSU, but more of an adapter.  Then it should work connecting any mobo to a Hynes.  Did the mobo spec or the total device power requirement determine whether to use 12v vs 19v?

The mobo allowed either in its range.  I simply wanted to know if 19V sounded better, but it was inconclusive.  This was 3 years ago.

[ted_b]

20 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

+ 1,000,000

 

Thanks @romaz

Yes, Roy's out of the box thinking, his experience, his wriiting skills, and his overall knowledge base are invaluable to veteran CA'ers and newbies alike.  Come back occasionally man!

[ted_b]

38 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

If only someone would build an endpoint with a fiber SFP.

For NAA this is a possibility

 

[ted_b]

Great post and feedback info, hols. 

 

To your last comment, I guess this says good things about the SU-1 as it seems to be holding its own against a 3x priced "competitor".  I assume putting the Ultra on the USB path the to Singxer would make no sense, but have you tried it anyway?

[ted_b]

21 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Ted, can you pls explain why you think doing so would make no sense? I intend to put the IsoRegen in front of my SU-1.

I do too (especially for GI), but I was simply referring to the "clock closest to dac", which would be the SU-1 clock, not the Ultra.  I guess I should not have said "makes no sense" but instead said it may not be the best position for it if you are trying to see its maximum effects.  But who knows, and specifically why I asked if he tried it anyway. 

[ted_b]

Seeteeyou, that is exactly what Larry (lmitche) is doing, although I think he is powering the ethernet/USB box with LPS-1, not sure if he powers the PCIe card externally or not.

[ted_b]

4 hours ago, hols said:

It's great that you experiment with the Adnaco too. We have used the Adnaco 5 years or so ago and was probably the first few audiophiles who used Adnaco for electrical isolation.

Why did you go away from Adnaco and what have you now found in 5 years to be better (latest setup notwithstanding)?

[ted_b]

Yes i dont see a way for the card to be externally powered either.  No biggie.

 

So does the host computer just see this as a USB connection and therefore you just choose an ASIO dac driver locally?

[ted_b]

34 minutes ago, romaz said:

 Not sure about noise generated by the transmitters but there is an unmistakable improvement in clarity with the S3B vs my server's stock USB port.

Roy, thanks for all this.  I am contemplating trying the S3B (as Larry is recommending it too).  My comparison will be an NAA setup (I have two; Windows NAA and microRendu as NAA).  If S3B brings more clarity and body, then great, I jettison the NAA idea.  But Jussi's NAA approach offers some benefits (like simple dac driver environment) that I;m not sure the S3B will also ameliorate.  What say you?

[ted_b]

Double post

[ted_b]

1 hour ago, romaz said:

I can use just about any software player that will run on Windows and not have to worry.  With my Chord DAVE specifically, it also frees me up to use Chord's ASIO driver which has broader capabilities including native DSD playback (instead of DoP).  While DoP sounds just as good, I am finding more stuttering with it whereas native DSD playback results in no stuttering at all even with my native DSD256 files.

I have a Windows NAA so those ASIO "freedoms" are with my NAA too (the only real downside of Linux NAA).  So, although I have one less thing to worry about, I may still try the S3B.

[ted_b]

On 5/20/2017 at 7:26 PM, lmitche said:

The Adnaco works at the PCIE bus level and at 10gb fiber speeds, so is a very different animal then the FMCs used in our early, failed, fiber FMC experiments.

 

Larry, what failed in the early FMC experiments?

[ted_b]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Ted, I think most of us that used the externally powered standalone FMCs have all retired them in favor of internal fiber nic cards or direct bridged connections with or without isolation transformers.  Lastly in this thread, it seems to me that copper is preferred with an externally clocked Ethernet switch between NAS and renderer.

Not me.  I have one fiber NIC card and yet my  FMCs (router/urendu/NAS, most of which have upgraded PSs) talk to a Diablo fiber switch, and work wonderfully and create a black background to die for....so far.  Not to say I might very well try the Adnaco approach, but not to remove FMCs (that's a byproduct) but to simply understand whether that approach is more musical than an NAA architecture (and make sure I can still do DSD-to-DSD512)  I am less excited since hearing the Adnaco, in some setups, can contribute to a thin sound, but realize YMMV.

[ted_b]

Larry, I know you tried the JCAT (designed with Adnaco) Femto card.  Are you saying the mobo USB out is better, or just that the dedicated PCI-e cards are not worth the expense, or something else.

[ted_b]

Sorry, I wish I had a steel propeller to send you to test. 

[ted_b]

38 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Interesting that you had issues since you are using a PC as the NAA.  It should be as easy

LOL.  I've been struggling with bridging since this thread started.  Easy?

[ted_b]

20 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

What's the audio advantage of bridging?  From this description I found, it doesn't sound like it'd be important in audio to me, but what do I know

  https://www.techwalla.com/articles/the-advantages-of-a-network-bridge

 

Chris

bridging Ethernet connections is the original subject of this now-massively-diverse knowledge thread. It allows one to connect directly to ones renderer rather than go through a switch

[ted_b]

If you are going through a switch how is that "direct" in your mind?  I assumed when we talk direct we really mean nonstop, and assumed the sq advantages are akin to a nonstop flight, i.e. Faster, no changing planes and no risk of schedule conflicts