A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[vortecjr]

romaz, we have been directly connecting devices for some time now. I have a how to guide for OS X where WiFi is used for internet and the Mac is used for playback directly connected to a microRendu. If you develop a similar guide for Windows (including how to undo it) that would be great. This "should" avoid having to use two ports on one motherboard which hardly anyone has.

 

Have you loaded at this thread:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f26-sonore-sponsored/sonicorbiter-direct-connection-mac-pc-beta-28606/

[vortecjr]

Thank you for this link, Jesus! I was not aware of it and so it appears you've blazed this trail already with your Sonicorbiter. Interestingly, it appears the intent was for convenience and no one really made any comments on whether they thought this connection resulted in sonic superiority (perhaps no one considered it might sound better this way and so no one did any critical comparisons although to my ears, the improvement isn't subtle).

It was developed for demanding customers who want to explore everything:) As for sound quality comments...I'll leave that up to you and the customers.

 

On my Mac Mini (El Capitan), I've succeeded in making a connection with a single ethernet port (obviously no bridging involved) but this was only useful for playback of music from local storage. For those who wish to stream from a NAS or from Tidal, then you're stuck.

The setup in the link I provided uses of WiFi at the same time allowing for Tidal and network playback.

 

I will be testing Windows for myself soon but it appears this direct connection is a bit trickier with Windows for many who have tried it thus far. Perhaps the best person to develop a guide for Windows would be Andrew Gillis. As he is the developer of the microRendu's OS, I would think he would be in the best position to develop a "no fuss" direct path to the microRendu. He has already suggested he can configure a sonicTransporter that could be used for direct connection straight out of the box and so this could represent a convenient option for many.

I disagree, this is a complex server side / network based solution that can work with the microRendu. The threads in my sponsored section are provided for the most popular solutions to help people get started. These specific solutions are best sorted out by the interested parties.

[vortecjr]

We use to make something like this. It was a full blown Sonore Music Server running Vortexbox with an optional output card (USB, SPDIF/Analog, AES/EBU, or i2s) They had a miniBox ATX or straight power, or a combination of the two. They were fanless and the drives had vibration isolation with filters. We had a single external power supply brick or external upgrade power supply made from a Daitron module. Then towards the end of the series we made a dual output power supply called Duex which had a linear supply for the output card and a Daitron module for the mainboard. They sounded great, but the Rendu series is better sounding, less parts, smaller, and much less expense. This was circa 2014 so no USB circuit design from John S or on board linear regulation feeding all the circuits and oscillators 

 

Here is a picture of the stack:  

[vortecjr]

46 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

While the endpoint is a great idea, you still need a host server. If you guys could make something simple to run Roon Core I'd be interested. 

John, we have that already;) It's called sonicTransporter and it's made by Small Green Computer. We are hardware and software partners with them, but I don't make any money on the servers. sonicTransporter runs a version of Sonicorbiter that is setup for server duties. It can be a Roon server, DLNA server, Logitech Media Server, etc. Its very similar in look and feel to Sonicorbiter running on the micro/ultraRendu and meant to be complimentary. The are reasonably priced, include support, and are turnkey. 

 

Also, I would say that endpoints need "server software" running on any computer or NAS. The point is you don't need a dedicated music server. There are also people just streaming via Tidal or Quboz and in that case neither computer or NAS is needed.        

[vortecjr]

9 hours ago, spotforscott said:

Curious about which server option you would choose & why @ $1500 price point?

 

1. Modified Mac Mini (modded) + JS2 power supply

2. SONICTRANSPORTER I7 FOR ROON DSP

 

Both support bridged connection but which would produce the best results?

 

BTW, I have no interest in building a server so that's not an option

The sonicTransporters are designed primarily for streaming so you would not need at JS-2 level power supply with it. comparing for local playback in not really proper. They can play music locally and you can discuss options for that with Andrew at SGC. 

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

How can I say this...the sonicTransporter isn't as good as it could be?  I think the hardware side of it is too easily duplicated and not as well designed as the Rendu.

 I assume you mean compared to other music servers for local playback. As mentioned in my last post it’s primarily intended for streaming. As a Roon server it exceeds the minimum requirements. Did you know there are a few prebuilt units sold that don’t meet the minimum Roon requirements. There is even one that recently won an award that can’t support a large library and there was no mention of that fact. As for being duplicated...you are correct because they are built mostly with off the shelf parts. Even the ones we use to build can be duplicated, but people still bought them because the didn’t want to tinker. I dont have to tell you how much time and money goes into researching this stuff. 

[vortecjr]

11 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree with that suggestion, especially Sonore already worked closely with SolidRun for their Sonicorbiter SE.

 

As @romaz mentioned recently, all we need is a great carrier board (for their SolidPC Q4) so that everything could be powered directly with dedicated power sources while the excellent LT3045 could be deployed strategically

 

I want to design my carrier board.

http://forum.solid-run.com/hardware-f39/i-want-to-design-my-carrier-board--t3262.html

https://www.solid-run.com/intel-braswell-family/solidpc-q4-carrier-board/

 

SolidPC Q4 Carrier Documentation & Block Diagram | SolidRun

https://wiki.solid-run.com/doku.php?id=products:ibx:documents

 

Tiniest Braswell COM ships, with 4K video, GbE, up to 8GB RAM

http://linuxgizmos.com/tiniest-braswell-module-delivers-the-goods-including-4k-video/

 

Braswell SOM – System On Module

https://www.solid-run.com/intel-braswell-family/braswell-som-system-on-module/

For the record there was no working closely with SolidRun and you will find those links useless when you really get into it;) We just bought the processor from them for the micro/ultra the rest was mostly up to us. 

 

Anyway, why go through the expense and time to build a project based on an Atom processor? If all you need is more CPU / RAM we could put a quad core ARM processor with 2x RAM under the hood of an ultraRendu. The design of the ultraRendu main board is already ful linear regulated, but we would need to check all that against the spec of the more powerful module. Not sure what why any of this would be needed though.

[vortecjr]

5 minutes ago, spotforscott said:

I guess it comes down to benefits of faster i7 processing (for Roon DSP upsampling) vs better power supply with Mac Mini. I will be using this with my Chord DAVE and eventually BlueDAVE, so not sure the processing side matters because any upsampling will be handled with my Chord equipment. As such, I am thinking that the mac mini combo is a better choice because better power supplies can make a real difference. Or am I missing something? 

There is a lot of talk on CA about upsampling, but from customer feedback that I personally receive and obtain through support most people don’t bother with it. The only way to know for sure with your devices is to try it. I would only update the power supply for local playback and not for streaming. 

[vortecjr]

3 minutes ago, Cornan said:

What about a cloud based PC? Is there anyone that have tried this type of solution for audio?

 

https://shadow.tech/gben/technology

 

I am all up in the clouds and IME using a (tweaked out) setup with Aries Mini. FLAC files saved to Google Drive sounds really good controlled via BubbleDS Next/LightningDS platform. My router end almost looks like a power station though!  

 

The people I interact with are using Tidal if they are streaming from the net.

[vortecjr]

21 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Me too! Tidal is my main music source, but I just find that cloud saved FLAC sounds really good. So far the music I have got stored on Google Drive is music that is not available on Tidal. I intend to make a direct comparence during the weekend to see if that holds true using the same FLAC album (Mimicking Birds - Layer of Us). In the mean time I am interested to know if anyone else have experiences with cloud saved audio solutions?

BubbleUPnP and the MPD/DLNA output supports this. I hadn’t tried it though. 

[vortecjr]

21 hours ago, spotforscott said:

For local playback I use a Synology NAS, so isn't the server involved in both streaming and local playback? As you can tell, my technical knowledge is limited. Just trying to figure out best option. I will use all of this with an endpoint like the Rendu or sotm...  thx

It’s a very good server and you might be able to play locally from it. It’s mostly used as a DLNA server though to stream to devices around the house. I run their Synology DiskStation which is there DLNA server and use my ultraRendu in MPD/DLNA output mode. 

[vortecjr]

16 hours ago, tz1963 said:

I have a Supermicro X10SBA-O, which I power with a Mini-box.com picoPSU-150-XT – 150 W DC-DC ATX power supply. It replaces a Gigabyte ga-n3160tn and the Supermicro is clearly better, simply quieter and less glare.

For those considering the X10SBA, it can be quite picky with RAM, so I had to get new RAM rather than use old ones that I still had, adding to the cost.

But I was wondering if it was better to power it with a 12v 4-pin DC connector. Would that be an improvement? And which one should I get? Any suggestions would be helpful.

Are you sure you can bypass the ATX power input and only use the 4 pin connector? That 4 pin connector is usually for the processor and typically fed from the Pico. We we use to feed some motherboards via the 4 pin connector, but they did not have ATX power inputs and were intended to use the 4 pin connector or external power via a single pin barrel connector. 

[vortecjr]

27 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Jesus R, the Supermicro board can be powered from either the 24 pin atx connector, four pin 12 volt connector, or both simultaneously.

 

Innuous uses a 20 pin 12 volt Pico power supply and the 12 volt 4 pin connector simultaneously powered from two separate 12 lpsus.

That is not what the manual says. It says,

“ATX PWR & 12V DC PWR

Connectors (JPW1 & 

PJ1)

The 24-pin ATX power connector

(JPW1) is used to provide power to

the motherboard. The 4-pin 12V DC

PWR connector (PJ1) can also be

used as an optional power source

when ATX power supply is not avail-

able. These power connectors meet

the SSI EPS 12V specification. See

the table on the right for pin defini-

tions”

[vortecjr]

3 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

They also had a similar discussion here

 

https://superuser.com/questions/722128/can-a-motherboard-work-when-only-supplied-with-atx12v

 

Basically they could get away with only 12V via 4-pin connector simply because of the Mini ITX form factor. In other words, we couldn't have done that if we're talking about an ATX motherboard.

 

Furthermore, Supermicro also used the word or as follows

 

http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/celeron/x10/x10sba-l.cfm

 

Finally @jean-michel6 already proved that's accomplished with a single 12V iFi Audio iPower feeding that 4-pin connector ONLY

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=244&tab=comments#comment-774699

 

After reading the manual it’s clear that you can use a single 12 volt power supply via the 4 pin connector to power the board. Your missing the point though. The 4 pin connector and the ATX connector feed the same circuits and there is probably a common ground.

[vortecjr]

I provided a quote from the manual above. Both the ATX source input and the 4 pin source input feed the board. At some point you are going to end up with parallel circuits if you feed the board from both source inputs and it’s not designed for that.

[vortecjr]

53 minutes ago, rickca said:

All the ATX boards I've used require both the 24-pin and the 4-pin.  Of course, they are designed for more powerful CPUs than a J1900.  Is this Supermicro mini-ITX board circuit design different than a standard ATX board?  I realize it's a SoC without a separate chipset.

In the case of the ATX board the four pin connector is also used to put power down close the processor. 

[vortecjr]

3 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I compared cloud saved FLAC to Tidal FLAC using BubbleDS Next via LightningDS platform today. Even if they do sound a tiny bit different it is too close to make any firm conclutions. I also compared BubbleUPnP, BubbleDS Next and LightningDS app using Tidal FLAC. BubbleDS Next still sounds best followed by LightningDS and BubbleUPnP/BubbleUPnP Server.

They should sound the same. Also, the controllers does is tell the renderer what to play. The renderer is actually playing the content.

[vortecjr]

I know the MiniBox ATX power supplies have been around a while, but how come no one is talking about NanoATX power supplies from hdplex.com?

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, lmitche said:

Inspired by the Innuous design, I'm using a linear power supply and an hdplex DC to DC  converter here to power the 24 pin atx connector of a z170 6700k machine with the 12 volt cpu power coming from a standard 1600 watt ATX power supply. This is the SQ tweak of tweaks.  I can't believe what I am hearing.

 

The hdplex just sounds better then the minibox.

 

I agree with you, there should be a common ground in the board between these connectors and as such I did not expect such an improvement. It is frustrating in that I have owned all the kit to make this enhancement for years, and it was unused for most of that time. 

 

Thanks to this thread, I thought to test this change. I am glad I did. Now working to fit everything into the case, and to get one button power working again.

It’s an old trick. There is still room for improvement, but you will hit a wall with this kind of approach.

[vortecjr]

5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

What does "playing the content" mean exactly?  At that point it's still a digital stream, not analog.  I always wondered exactly what the renderer does.

 

It’s the player in the digital loop. For example...It takes content in FLAC format and outputs PCM. The controller is the director telling the server what file to offer up to the renderer to play.

[vortecjr]

45 minutes ago, rickca said:

@lmitche keeps finding ways to move the wall.  

You can still hit the wall even if it's moving:)

[vortecjr]

46 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I don't think we gleamed any new information from the Innuous design that we didn't already know with the sCLK-EX server, power matters.  Some of these old ATX powering tricks are nothing new with separate CPU LPS.  Although nice to hear that new HDPlex ATX DC to DC converter board has gotten better specs.  I still have an older one on hand not being used.

 

For this kind of money on these boutique servers, I would rather put my money forth towards more influential components like DAC or speakers, where we would get a far bigger bang for the buck (m-scaler or DAVE for myself can be had for around 8k each, but I'm not going there right now, wait for this technology to come into my budget).    Meanwhile some small tweaks are in store with adding my PH7.  I'll wait for some reasonable cost custom mobo down the road tricked out with premium power and clocks, built to order or DIY.  Meanwhile no rush, sCLK-EX Jetway NUC is just fine, for the right cost.  Keep up the good work guys, looking, experimenting.

It could be new to him. Your still waiting for a  reasonable cost custom mobo down the road tricked out with premium power and clocks:) 

[vortecjr]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Rickca,

 

Power is from a 19 volt 6 amp Sigma 11 based LPS and an older 250 watt hdplex DC to DC converter in combo with EVGA 1600 watt titanium monster on the 12 volt cpu(epu) cable.

 

The 250 watt hdplex specs are :

Output Voltage Max DC Current Full Load DC Current Output Voltage Tolerance Ripple Noise (mVp-p,MAX)
—————————————————————————————————————-
+3.3V 12A 10A 1% 50mV
+5V 12A 10A 1% 50mV
+12V 19A 16A 1% 120mV
+5VSB 2A 1.5A 3% 50mV

 

The new hdplex 400 watt specs are greatly improved:

 

Output Voltage

Max DC Current

Full Load DC Current

Output Voltage Tolerance

Ripple Noise (mVp-p,MAX)

---

+3.3V	12A	10A	1%	10mV
+5V	12A	10A	1%	10mV
+12V	50A	35A	1%	10mV
+5VSB	2A	1.5A	3%	10mV

So the newer model likely sounds even better.

 

The whole 24 pin connector only pulls 18 watts with Hqplayer upsampling running. The 12 volt cpu connector pulls ~70 watts or < 5% of the rated power.

 

This is the biggest single increase in SQ I have ever heard from a tweak.

 

Larry

 

 

How does the ripple spec of your Titanium compare to 250 watt HD-Plex? If companies would list the ripple at various loads then we could compare things properly. I saw a spec the other day that did this, but I can't find now. Was it you that posted a link to a power supply the other day? 

[vortecjr]

34 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

But it's the Roon Core/server/controller that applies the DSP or does the upsampling.  Same with HQPlayer.  So it does that while still in FLAC format?  I don't see how that's possible.  I thought it was the server that converts it from FLAC to PCM or DSD.

Roon is different because it is the player so it can apply DSP there. Same for HQ Player. These stream to ALSA in Linux and then ALSA outputs to your DAC. When we talk about renderers it's mostly a DLNA term. 

[vortecjr]

35 minutes ago, lmitche said:

If I owned a ultrarendu, or any third party streamer, I would have a hit wall as there is no way for me to improve it.

You could have played around with an endless offerings of power supplies:)