A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[BigGuy]

21 minutes ago, austinpop said:

@romaz

 

You are clearly the most interesting man in computer audio! 

 

I'm guessing you don't always drink beer, but when you do, you prefer one that is "well-balanced, resolute and transparent." 

 

I will be buying you said beer when we meet up in RMAF.  Or any libation of your choice!

Previously published on Audiokarma.org...

 

He does not need cable lifters. When he enters a room, speaker cables lift themselves out of respect.

He does not buy remastered records. He remasters his own.

He can bias power tubes to within 1mV ... by ear.

Mark Levinson build a custom preamp for him ... with tone controls and loudness.

He traps his own bass.

He has never listened to "Jazz at the Pawnshop" ... he just happened to be there and gave the recording engineer a few pointers.

McIntosh chose the color of his eyes for its VU meters.

His list of equipment is The Recommended List of Components.

His interpretation of Wife Acceptance Factor is completely different from yours ... and it has nothing to do with speakers.

Diana Krall ogles at his photos.

Hewlett-Packard uses his perfect 1Khz whistle to calibrate their test equipment.

His mere presence causes jitter in lesser components ... even analog ones.

When one of his girlfriend asked for diamonds for their anniversary, he bought himself a pair of B&W 800D speakers -- and she was ecstatic.

His ears are insured with Lloyd's of London.

It is said that Dave Wilson was inspired to build and name their MAXX speaker after seeing him naked in the locker room shower. It is also rumored that his beard shavings are the secret ingredients in Wilson Speaker's X Material.

Michael Fremer credits him for the vinyl revival.

When he is in the audience at a concert, Keith Jarrett refrains from making those annoying grunts and noises when he plays.

He once arm wrestled Eveanna Manley ... and won.

The moment he takes a new piece of equipment out of the store it appreciates in value by 40%.

He is ... the most interesting audiophile in the world.

[BigGuy]

8 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

@austinpop, I think I read in one of your posts that you are using a power regenerator (PS Audio perhaps, by memory).

 

I got myself a Transparent PowerIsolator Reference (noise filtration and surge protection), and wonder whether it’s ok to plug a linear power supply with filtration (like the Sbooster I am using) into a power regenerator that also filtrates the power signal?

From what I read on the website,  while the Transparent PIR does offer filtration and surge protection, it does not regenerate and may not even regulate AC.

 

In answer to your question, I am using a PS Audio P300 to regenerate power for front end components as well as LPS's.  Like they say... GIGO or Good In, Good Out.

[BigGuy]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Yes, I have a PS Audio P5 regenerator. I've never regretted that purchase!

 

I'm not familiar with the Transparent. Sorry.

 

As for the advisability of all the filtration - it surely won't damage anything. As for SQ, I really can't predict.

I have the older and original P300 which can handle 300W max so am just using for preamp, DAC and a (seldom used) Teac UX-3 universal player/transport.

 

I have a friend who is doing something similar with a P10 for pretty much everything except amps since, in his opinion, the system does not sound as good as the amps directly into a home-run 20 amp circuit.  I too am using 2 in-phase 20A duplexes to power my system with the amps on one of the dedicated circuits.

 

IMO, the P300 regenerator is one of the best components in my system and think my friend with the P10 would agree.

 

 

[BigGuy]

15 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Yes, you're correct. Lee does not like optical solutions due to high jitter.  As it was Lee that personally modified the Adnaco I sent him, he got a chance to listen to it and even with its 3 clocks replaced, he told me he thought it was a step back because It was sounding flat. It was at that point that he encouraged me to try his tX-USBexp. 

 

I knew I needed to hear it for myself and so he went ahead and completed the mod of the Adnaco per my request which included the replacing of several capacitors.  Once I received the modified Adnaco back, I felt it had definitely improved and I liked the smoother and more solid image it was portraying.  Around the time I received the modified Adnaco back, I was also able to audition the ISO Regen and I found the ISO Regen to be so good that in its stock form, it was equivalent to the modified Adnaco.  Around this time, I was able to access an SOtM tX-USBexp (non Ultra) and so I compared it to the modified Adnaco. I found Lee to be correct, even the non-ultra tX-USBexp was sounding more impressive to me than the modified Adnaco and when I added the ISO Regen to the tX-USBexp, this combo was easily better than the Adnaco.  Better yet, tX-USBexp + ISO Regen only utilized 2 clocks while the Adnaco solution by itself utilized 3 clocks although this combo costs more than the Adnaco.

 

Having said that, the Adnaco definitely has merit and it does some nice things. For those who have a thin sounding system, you might really like what the Adnaco does and regardless of jitter, optical isolation definitely lowers the noise floor.  For those who wish to keep their server in a different room or even a different building, you can purchase very long optical cables for very little money and still get excellent sound while remaining "straight USB." If you follow the Adnaco with a tX-USBultra, you come reasonably close to what the SOtM trifecta provides.

Was interested to read that "Lee" does not like optical solutions due to high jitter.  Given the required geographical separation of my PC server and DAC, I chose the Adnaco S3B USB over Fiber set up so I would like to learn more about jitter effects and optical. 

 

At the time it was released, I tried the original Regen with OEM SMPS between the Adnaco receiver module and my DAC but disliked what it did the SQ that I returned the Regen.  Have no idea what the SOtM trifecta is and do not understand all the posts re clocks but might consider adding the tX-USBultra to the chain if the SQ justified the expense.

[BigGuy]

See where Campbell's has come out with a soup for you guys... 

[BigGuy]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

Yes, AB5100SHF.  I bought 2 sheets which was just enough for my PC and DAC.  I'll have to buy more if I choose to do this with other equipment.

Not sure how much "shedding" there might be from the ABxxxx sheets but I know there is a cautionary statement on using ERS paper that it contains conductive fibers which potentially cause problems with circuitry.  I actually put mine into clear sheet protectors before placing on top of components.  The ABxxxx do contain metallic particles  which may have the same issue.  There are some of these sheets which are a foil which I would expect to have less of a problem in this regards.

[BigGuy]

6 minutes ago, afrancois said:

The datasheet clearly says non-conductive. But you are right, it contains metal flakes.

As a wise old Roman once said..."Caveat Emptor"  or, in our frame of reference, "Caveat Audiens"!

[BigGuy]

27 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Some more good reading on the topic.

 

https://interferencetechnology.com/introduction-to-composite-electromagnetic-noise-absorber-technology-1/

 

 

Good find.  There is quite a library on shielding as well as a newsletter at Interference Tech website.

[BigGuy]

11 minutes ago, afrancois said:

I received my 3 sheets of 3M AB5100SHF-210X297 today and used them around the sMS-200 ultra, MC3+ USB and even under some of my LPS-1’s with very good results.

I’m so satisfied that I immediately ordered extra 5 sheets. I still got a lot of equipment that could potentially benefit from this miracle paper. DAC’s, power amplifiers and headphone amplifier.

Perhaps not everybody will benefit as much as I do. Most of my equipment is in the garage and it seems a rather noisy environment.
 

From what I see, 3M sells sheets for specific applications.  Looks like AB5100 is for EMI rather than RFI.  Not questioning your observations but would not a garage be more likely to be RFI environ?

[BigGuy]

On 5/16/2017 at 2:24 AM, romaz said:

 

So, my Adnaco S3B has come in and it is indeed very good and the combination of Adnaco + tX-USBUltra is just heavenly.  I see great potential with the Adnaco with its clocks replaced.

 

Where SOtM's sound signature is this wonderful detail clarity, it can also sound a bit thin.  If there has been a criticism with their latest Ultra server, this is it and perhaps, this signature is even intentional.  This is why I value AO with its sound signatures and digital filters because it allows me to put a bit of meat on the bones of the SOtM.  I generally value silver over copper DC cabling but I have intentionally gone with copper with my SOtM gear.  

 

The Adnaco has this wonderful quality of gravitas.  Sound has more weight.  Compared against my server's stock USB port, SQ is significantly improved.  It lacks the depth and air and sparkle of the tX-USBUltra but the tX-USBUltra, just like its siblings can sound a touch thin.  The Adnaco + tX = pure bliss because the balance now is perfection but keep in mind, this is only my personal preference.

 

Could the Adnaco with its 3 clocks replaced provide the equivalent SQ of Adnaco + tX?  I'm not sure but that would be wonderful.  Is it better than switch + sMS-200Ultra + dX-USB HD Ultra or switch + sMS-200Ultra + tX-USBUltra?  I don't know yet, I'll find out tomorrow but thus far, I can't stop listening.

 

Here's something else that I was not expecting.  I tried using the tX-USBUltra as a hub for my music drive while I had just the Adnaco connected to my DAC.  I connected a compact flash card filled with music via a USB adapter to the tX and then compared SQ against this same compact flash connected to one of my server's USB port.  There was some improvement (larger soundstage) when the CF was connected to the tX but the improvement was small and I believe the tX is limited here by the poor quality of my server's USB port.  Of course, this could improve once I replace my motherboard clock but that remains to be seen.  I then tried plugging this compact flash setup into the Adnaco and WOW!  A very noticeable improvement in terms of detail clarity and separation.  I am now targeting a 2nd Adnaco for my music drive.

 

Regarding cost estimate of the motherboard, that is still being discussed.  

I too am using the Adnaco S3B <http://www.adnaco.com/products/s3a/>
 

[BigGuy]

On 5/16/2017 at 2:24 AM, romaz said:

 

So, my Adnaco S3B has come in and it is indeed very good and the combination of Adnaco + tX-USBUltra is just heavenly.  I see great potential with the Adnaco with its clocks replaced.

 

Where SOtM's sound signature is this wonderful detail clarity, it can also sound a bit thin.  If there has been a criticism with their latest Ultra server, this is it and perhaps, this signature is even intentional.  This is why I value AO with its sound signatures and digital filters because it allows me to put a bit of meat on the bones of the SOtM.  I generally value silver over copper DC cabling but I have intentionally gone with copper with my SOtM gear.  

 

The Adnaco has this wonderful quality of gravitas.  Sound has more weight.  Compared against my server's stock USB port, SQ is significantly improved.  It lacks the depth and air and sparkle of the tX-USBUltra but the tX-USBUltra, just like its siblings can sound a touch thin.  The Adnaco + tX = pure bliss because the balance now is perfection but keep in mind, this is only my personal preference.

 

Could the Adnaco with its 3 clocks replaced provide the equivalent SQ of Adnaco + tX?  I'm not sure but that would be wonderful.  Is it better than switch + sMS-200Ultra + dX-USB HD Ultra or switch + sMS-200Ultra + tX-USBUltra?  I don't know yet, I'll find out tomorrow but thus far, I can't stop listening.

 

Here's something else that I was not expecting.  I tried using the tX-USBUltra as a hub for my music drive while I had just the Adnaco connected to my DAC.  I connected a compact flash card filled with music via a USB adapter to the tX and then compared SQ against this same compact flash connected to one of my server's USB port.  There was some improvement (larger soundstage) when the CF was connected to the tX but the improvement was small and I believe the tX is limited here by the poor quality of my server's USB port.  Of course, this could improve once I replace my motherboard clock but that remains to be seen.  I then tried plugging this compact flash setup into the Adnaco and WOW!  A very noticeable improvement in terms of detail clarity and separation.  I am now targeting a 2nd Adnaco for my music drive.

 

Regarding cost estimate of the motherboard, that is still being discussed.  

I too am using the Adnaco S3B 

http://www.adnaco.com/products/s3a/
with a 30 ft glass cable between my PC server and DAC.  USB connection is via the Pangea Ag cable treated with the Swenson shield ground.

 

Sounds like the SOTM tX-USBUltra is a great add-on but put off by the $1k buy-in.

 

Any other things you have tried or are planning?  Thoughts on a IsoRegen, etc., vs the SOTM?

 

[BigGuy]

On 11/21/2017 at 10:20 AM, Johnseye said:

 

Roy has checked out of the forum.  He has commented on the ISO Regen and use of it in his system.  Take a look at the index for his posts.

 

One comment about FMCs is that they have their own PSUs and clocks.  Their clocks are often noisy.  You're potentially adding noise on one end to reduce it by using fiber.

 

A more recent effort has been to eliminate as much noise as possible from the PC/server.  If you read what I and a couple others have done, we've used the sCLK-EX, which is a component of the tX-USBultra, to improve the clocks in either our PC, switch or both.

Thanks for the info, Johnseye.  As indicated in my original post, I am not yet prepared to drop $1k on a USB decrapifier.

 

What is an "FMC"?

 

I keep reading about devices that have multiple clocks or at least one like the tX-USBultra.  I do not understand what all these clocks are doing so a bit of tutelage would be great.  Looked at the manual for the sCLK-EX and my eyes glazed over!

 

I have also read on a forum about a USB decrapifier device where it is "clock locked" with a DAC.  How would performance of this device be better, if at all, than one with an unlocked clock?

[BigGuy]

On 11/25/2017 at 12:52 PM, Johnseye said:

 

Fiber Media Converter. Not good for jitter. 

 

Bottom line is a better quality clock. Less noise. Good filtering. 

 

Not sure about a locked clock. 

Thanks, Johnseye.

 

Is the primary component of devices such as (Iso)Regen, iPurifier, etc. a chip which regenerates and reclocks the USB data?

 

Does a USB hub also do this or only serve to split the signal to multiple target devices?

[BigGuy]

5 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Frank,

 

Yes the REGEN, TXUsb-exp, and similar offerings from IFI, Wired and others show up in operating system as a USB hub.  Most often they have one port in and one out, but not always. They are often powered as they allow substitution of vbus power from the PC with something presumably cleaner. Lastly a few contain galvanic isolation devices to stop current loops.

 

So given that my Adnaco FMC, which incidentally is powered by an LPS, is not good for jitter as indicated by Johnseye, I guess I should consider one of these decrapifiers between my Adnaco receiver box and DAC.

[BigGuy]

26 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Rajiv,

 

For the past few months I've been playing with ground shunts, tinned copper shielding and lt3045 modules. This effort has been tedious at times, but has yielded a spectacular improvement in what was already great SQ.  Across the spectrum there is greater density, improved tonality, with bucket loads of depth and presence.

 

Reducing RFI/EMI with John Swenson's so called JSSG tweak has been profound. I have even used it on a simple coaxial spdif cable between a friend's Esoteric audio CD transport and Enlightened Audio DAC. Likewise ground shunting my 3.5 inch HDD enclosure and netgear fs108 switch have immediate positive impact.

 

However when doing these tweaks, I look for what appears to be secondary reasons for the quality improvement, but that in reality could be the primary contributor.

 

The Netgear fs105 switch is one example.  Not only does it isolate the high impedance leakage, for most of us it also drops the network speed to 100mbs from 1 gb. Is it the isolation or speed drop that matters most?  I don't know.

 

Likewise the external clocking solutions may have a (secondary) impact on ground planes.  It occurred to me that they add a lower impedance star grounding system between components by connecting to the central clock distribution board. From there, another path to ground is possible.

 

Like the Netgear switch, it would be hard to say what delivers the largest benefit, common grounding or clocking, as it is difficult to separate the impact of one vs. the other. I don't have any clocking gear here and so can't take even the simplest measurement and have to make tons of assumptions about the circuits at play.

 

Nevertheless, hopefully more food for thought.

 

Larry

 

P.S. As always many thanks to John Swenson's outstanding contributions to the above.

I know the fellow who owns the Esoteric and EAD gear and he could not believe the enhancement of SQ with  the JSSG treatment of the SPDIF cable.  This is a guy who has seen a lot and does not get excited by much.

 

Was interested in the comment about the FS105 particularly the bit about dropping the network speed...

    " The Netgear fs105 switch is one example.  Not only does it isolate the high impedance leakage, for most of us it also drops the network speed to 100mbs from 1 gb. Is it the isolation or speed drop that matters most?"

 

I have an older router which is not gigabit capable and have been considering a replacement to take advantage of the higher internet speed.  I do not use the router, and now switch, for anything to do with my music server but more for the noise isolation in general .  Both my workaday and music server PCs are currently connected to the FS105.

When I upgrade the router, am I better off bypassing the FS105 for my workaday PC based on comment?

 

[BigGuy]

6 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Yes, a new router, and embedded 4 to 5 port switch will support 1 gbs speeds and increased productivity for your workaday needs, while connection of one of these new ports to your music network segment will run at the lower speed contributing to improved SQ.  You get the best of both worlds this way.

 

I am pleased to hear that our mutual friend is happy with the JSSG tweak. I have learned a lot from him and it is nice to be able to give something back.

Just so I am clear...

 

Workaday PC path:  Modem -> Gigabit router -> PC

Server PC path:  Modem -> Gigabit router -> FS105 -> PC

 

Yes, our friend was both amazed and appreciative!

[BigGuy]

2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Yes that's right, assuming of course they are two different PC's.

Yes, 2 PCs.  Music server PC is dedicated and optimized for audio without messing with system registry.

 

Out of curiosity why would Netgear make what is ostensibly a splitter impact the speed to that extent, assuming yours is not a special case?

[BigGuy]

7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Ethernet has gone through many speed and topography changes over the years, from 10 mbs to 100 mbps, 1gbps, and now 10 gbps and faster.  The netgear fs series represents the 100 mbps fast Ethernet networking standards of 10+  years ago. The later gs series are the gigabit versions of the same.

 

With a 1gbps switch the speed can be lowered to 100 mbps on the PC side nic to achieve essentially the same benefit.

 

You really only want to devices, the router and PC, connected to your Netgear switch as this maximizes the isolation benefits.  Don't forget to use only odd or even numbered ports.

Ahhh!  IF I had known the difference between the FS and G(igabit)S series, I might have gone with the latter tho', serendipitously based on your comment re SQ of the 100mbps, the FS is better for the server service.  I will just run workaday straight from gigabit router bypassing the FS.

[BigGuy]

14 hours ago, mozes said:

Today I had some time to compare the playback of local files of:

1-Intel SLC 64GB SSD powered by SATA port of motherboard (sPS-500)+SOTM SATA filter II

2-Seagate 2TB HDD powered by a TP-link powerbank connected via USB to tX-USBexp. USB cable is Elijah audio which has separate wires for power, ground and data.

 

I thought that option 2 will be a clear winner with no contest, but I was surprised. It was very very close that I had to test 4 tracks back and forth like 4-5 times for each track. It was so close that I was worried about my placebo effect.   However, I can declare that option 2 is marginally better by around 2-3% only. No, I didn't do blind testing for those who are interested. These are only my subjective ears.

 

My recommendation is that you really don't need a second tX-USBexp, if you have the sCLK-EX board in your server and you got the main clock and other LAN clocks modded, then you are in a very good position. NO need to go any further!

 

Just spend $65 on the SATA filter II as this is an amazing little tweak. If I had my SSD powered externally, then I wouldn't be surprised if there were no differences at all. One caveat here, I use Jriver and play decoded files from memory, so this may have an impact on my results.

 

Mozes, can you provide more details on use of a SATA filter, e.g., applicability, availability, simplicity of install?

[BigGuy]

1 hour ago, mozes said:

The SATA filter I am using is the SOTM SATA II filter. It is plug and play, takes 5 sec to install. It is plugged to the SSD/HDD and the SATA/power cables coming from the motherboard plug to its other side.

Not to throw names around but the poster whose initials are "sandyk" commented in the last post of the (dead) thread "Should I use SOTM In-Line Filter..." that there was power shortcoming to the SOTM SATA Filter...

 

The problem with the average power filter, such as the SOtM SATA Filter, is that it needs to use surface mount components in order to reduce it's physical size. The inductors are of necessity, small in size ,and usually have more resistance than desirable due to the much finer gauge of wire needed . The capacitors at the output, being surface mount types are limited in the amount of capacitance that can be used. This results in a far less than very low and flat impedance right across the audible bandwidth and higher. An electronic filter on the other hand , such as a shunt regulator can have the equivalent capacitance of as high a value as 1 Farad.

The problem with most Series and Shunt Regulators is that almost all have too high a voltage drop across them unless you are converting , for example, an internal +12V supply rail to a cleaner +5V supply rail.

The John Linsley Hood designed PSU add-on that I use, provided that it has suitable protection from the huge inrush currents possible at start up in a normal PC, has no voltage drop through it.

The use of a good shunt regulator,(or a series regulator when converting from +12V to +5V ) actually results in an improvement in soundstage, with more "air", and improved ambience due to lower noise and a lower output impedance to well past the audible bandwidth .(>300kHz typically)

 

I went to the SOTM website looking for information, installation instructions, etc.  Nadda!  Even the AudioCircle link is dead!

 

I am using a DELL PC running Win7Pro with 500GB HDD for OS and 2TB HDD for music library.  I use JRiverMC and playback from memory to external DAC.

 

Should I expect to hear any improvement in SQ with the SATA filter?

IF so, where would the gains potentially be coming from?

[BigGuy]

1 hour ago, WuNgUn said:

I think the title of the OP should be "a really expensive way....", not a novel way. Yikes! 

Well, isn't that where the "massively" come from?!

 

Either that or the novel is a reference to long books like War & Peace!  ;-)

 

[BigGuy]

4 minutes ago, mozes said:

Anyone talking about cold?

Greetings from ??  

Given the drought, fires, rain and mudslides a good part of CA has experienced, I am OK with shoveling a bit of snow and enduring a few days of subzero temps in CT.

[BigGuy]

3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Cornan

 I wasn't suggesting that the bridged fuse be left there permanently, just used for comparison purposes.

Fuses don't have magical properties, but depending on the types  of metals used, and the rating of the fuse, they do have resistance which will vary according to the type of fuse and it's rating. Some amplifiers are unduly sensitive to any series resistance in their PSU supply leads, which does of course include the fuse holder itself, and the type of metal used there too.

If you are going to use premium fuses then perhaps you should also use gold plated fuse holders for lower contact resistance ?

 

Alex

Interestingly I was told yesterday that plating can actually be a potential issue due to a diode effect at the interface.  Not sure how valid the concern but, if supported, almost every connection in our system is somewhat problematic!

[BigGuy]

1 hour ago, limniscate said:

It's getting out of hand:

 

 

Deus ex machina?!

[BigGuy]

17 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

 

When the opening of DC plug (i.e. the diameter) is 8.5 mm, the area should be 56.75 mm²

 

https://www.sensorsone.com/circle-diameter-to-area-calculator/

 

Let's say we just wanna go totally nuts and we're giving 6 AWG a try. The diameter of each wire is 4.11 mm while the area is 13.3 mm² accordingly to this link

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html

 

Could we actually fit two pieces of 6 AWG wires inside a modified Elec plug? If so, could those unusually thick wires be super difficult to solder?

 

http://www.elecaudio.com/en/hi-fi-connectors/286-elecaudio-dc-21g-jack-dc-connector-5525mm-gold-plated.html

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/connecteurs-jack/elecaudio-dc-21g-gold-plated-connector-jack-dc-55-21mm-p-9822.html
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31554-diy-dc-power-cables/?page=8&tab=comments#comment-658536

 

 

Great idea to cut the end off of the DC plug but is it sourced from "ELAC" or "ELEC"audio?

Could not find a source for the Elecaudio plugs in the USA?!  Links?

I have used Oyaide but these would be less expensive.