What did $500 per Watt Amplification buy someone? Apparently not a lot

[plissken]

Speaking of that have you heard any feed forward designs?

 

I have not. From what I understand it can't guarantee the output(?)

[Rt66indierock]

I have not. From what I understand it can't guarantee the output(?)

 

Can you clarify?

[4est]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqzchvkfsio

 

rotflmao!

[plissken]

Can you clarify?

 

I don't know that I can. Lab Gruppen, I believe, has a forward tracking ability in their line up. It's supposed to know the characteristics of the system and make adjustments ahead on the input side but the output is never sensed.

 

That's all that I have. I really haven't looked into it.

[Sherwood]

Just like a $150,000 sports car with terrible 0-60-0 would be more talked about.

 

Not true: https://flyermotorwerks.com/ff003/

 

This is a pretty universally beloved car. It's inefficient, impractical, and does not articulate any particular design goals aside from "looking good". Cars for 1/9th the price can undoubtedly best it in all technical aspects.

 

Car guys, for the most part, seem to adore Chris Runge's handmade throwback cars. Audio guys (distinct from audiophiles) seem to hate pricey, bespoke audio equipment. I'm not certain where that disparity lies.

[plissken]

Not true: https://flyermotorwerks.com/ff003/

 

This is a pretty universally beloved car. It's inefficient, impractical, and does not articulate any particular design goals aside from "looking good". Cars for 1/9th the price can undoubtedly best it in all technical aspects.

 

Car guys, for the most part, seem to adore Chris Runge's handmade throwback cars. Audio guys (distinct from audiophiles) seem to hate pricey, bespoke audio equipment. I'm not certain where that disparity lies.

 

Look @ the 1st line of the website:

 

The goal with this project is to build a reliable, 1950’s influenced racer as an evolution of FF001 and shown here FF002.

 

It's clear he's not after the current performance envelope. It's a clear marketing statement about what that product is targeted toward. Kind of like the Lone Star and Factory Five kit car companies.

 

I like that look a lot and have zero issues with the marketing copy. He's not trying to pass it off as something that it ain't .

[4est]

I do not see how Vitus would be any different in this regard. From them via the article:

 

"Vitus Audio is dedicated to musical performance rather than technical details and high performance measures."

 

Look @ the 1st line of the website:

 

The goal with this project is to build a reliable, 1950’s influenced racer as an evolution of FF001 and shown here FF002.

 

It's clear he's not after the current performance envelope. It's a clear marketing statement about what that product is targeted toward. Kind of like the Lone Star and Factory Five kit car companies.

[plissken]

I do not see how Vitus would be any different in this regard. From them via the article:

 

"Vitus Audio is dedicated to musical performance rather than technical details and high performance measures."

 

Compare the two sites and you tell me which gives you more information about the inferred performance.

 

At least with the car site they discuss the power-train and it gives you some indicators.

 

You are being disingenuous in that you are attempting to steer the context away from what is considered state of the art performance car wise.

 

Amps aren't cars. ALL amps have one primary function: Take input and amplify it.

 

Car's aren't necessarily simply point A/B devices. This is why it's frustrating when people revert to car analogs: It's because they don't understand amplification enough to keep the conversation immersed in those same terms.

[Sherwood]

Look @ the 1st line of the website:

 

I've obviously looked at the website, I linked you to it. My point, which you somehow missed, is that this company is producing a $150,000 sports car with terrible 0-60-0 performance, objectively speaking. You argued that this would be "more talked about", yet there are no criticisms.

[mansr]

I do not see how Vitus would be any different in this regard. From them via the article:

 

"Vitus Audio is dedicated to musical performance rather than technical details and high performance measures."

"Performance" the key word here. The Vitus amp demonstrably lacks it.

[4est]

Sherwood has answered that, and the fact that this upsets you is on you, not Vitus. If you do not like their spiel, don't buy their stuff. Simples...

Compare the two sites and you tell me which gives you more information about the inferred performance.

 

At least with the car site they discuss the power-train and it gives you some indicators.

[4est]

They specifically addressed that in my quote taken from the article. I do not see how that is any different from a car with a whopping 80 HP.

"Performance" the key word here. The Vitus amp demonstrably lacks it.

[plissken]

I've obviously looked at the website, I linked you to it. My point, which you somehow missed, is that this company is producing a $150,000 sports car with terrible 0-60-0 performance, objectively speaking. You argued that this would be "more talked about", yet there are no criticisms.

 

They aren't fucking producing a sports car in today's context. They are producing a 50's replicar. Christ it's clear as the sun comes up.

[Ralf11]

well, I have lots of car analogies, but I'll just say that every consumer should do extensive blind testing vs. their current amp of any new amp they consider

 

getting other people's opinions is valuable to narrow the field

[Sherwood]

You are being disingenuous in that you are attempting to steer the context away from what is considered state of the art performance car wise... This is why it's frustrating when people revert to car analogs: It's because they don't understand amplification enough to keep the conversation immersed in those same terms.

 

Pretty tough talk for a guy who introduced the car analogy into this conversation in the first place. Can we safely assume you recant that, now?

 

Christ it's clear as the sun comes up.

 

It is clear to everyone here but you. You'd like to heap some scorn on a manufacturer making what you consider to be overpriced, underperforming, technically vague equipment. You view amplifiers as a point A to point B device. Other people shockingly don't, and aren't interested in belittling a manufacturer making a product we've not heard or bought because of its dollar to watt ratio.

[4est]

Really, I feel Chris(CA) pretty much nailed it early on, and I do not understand what the big deal is. Archimago is griping about Vitus not doing something they specifically claim not to do. It seems like Archimago is just looking for something to bitch about. Click bait anyone? Sheesh, I feel like a fool. I clicked that dumb link twice. Is Archimago in Russia perchance? Hmm...

[4est]

They aren't fucking producing a sports car in today's context. They are producing a 50's replicar. Christ it's clear as the sun comes up.

 

No need to get all testy because people are calling you out.

[mansr]

They specifically addressed that in my quote taken from the article. I do not see how that is any different from a car with a whopping 80 HP.

Where did anyone claim an 80 hp car had better performance than one with 240 hp and turbocharger? The design goals of those cars mentioned above are explicitly *not* performance. Pick any design goals you want, just don't be dishonest about it.

[plissken]

Pretty tough talk for a guy who introduced the car metaphor into this conversation in the first place. Can we safely assume you recant that metaphor, now?

 

 

 

It is clear to everyone here but you. You'd like to heap some scorn on a manufacturer making what you consider to be overpriced, underperforming, technically vague equipment. You view amplifiers as a point A to point B device. Other people shockingly don't, and aren't interested in belittling a manufacturer making a product we've not heard or bought because of its dollar to watt ratio.

 

Post 25 of mine isn't an amp/car analogy. Ugh, like explaining stuff to 4 year old's.

[plissken]

Really, I feel Chris(CA) pretty much nailed it early on, and I do not understand what the big deal is. Archimago is griping about Vitus not doing something they specifically claim not to do. It seems like Archimago is just looking for something to bitch about. Click bait anyone? Sheesh, I feel like a fool. I clicked that dumb link twice. Is Archimago in Russia perchance? Hmm...

 

They claim 'performance'. I'm assuming it's good performance but turns out to be shitty performance compared to ~$1100 in amplification.

[Ralf11]

Where did anyone claim an 80 hp car had better performance than one with 240 hp and turbocharger? ...

 

I will make that claim if I can pick the cars' wt.

[plissken]

I will make that claim if I can pick the cars' wt.

 

Ariel Atom:

 

[plissken]

You view amplifiers as a point A to point B device.

 

Regardless of topology, tubed, SS. Amps are a point A to B device. Their job is to mimic, as close as they can, a straight piece of wire with gain. Variations for reactive load, low impedance load is a given of course.

 

It's their job.

 

Please don't make me crayon out a picture why this doesn't apply to vehicles.

[Jesus Montana]

What if the argument changes from cost to time. Given, free of charge, a bag of respective PCBs, caps, resistors and heat sinks which circuit would be worth your time to DIY...the Vitus, Emotiva or the Archimago?

[Keith_W]

Which is something I pointed out before. I personally don't buy into the technical merits of ZFB designs. Of the few that I have been exposed to I was wanting to be impressed. Something just happens when you mess with the damping.

 

I might point out that expectation bias works both ways. If you accuse people of thinking that a more expensive amp sounds better because of expectation bias, then a preconcieved notion that you don't like amps with NFB will predispose you towards not being impressed when you hear them.

 

Regardless, it is silly to make blanket statements about NFB. Not all zero feedback designs are bad, although I will grant you that there are some out there which do not like being presented with certain speaker loads. Conversely, not all high feedback amps are good either. If you desire a more nuanced understanding on the role of NFB on an amp, I suggest you read Norman Koren on NFB. Here is a little quote from that article that might shed more light on this discussion:

 

"What is wrong with conventional measurements? Two things. The first is that most of them are made in frequency domain. The real world happens in time domain. Frequency domain measurements are derived from a mathematical construct called the Fourier transform, which is defined for linear systems. When a system becomes seriously nonlinear— as an amplifier does when it saturates— frequency domain measurements their meaning. Time domain measurements, such as pictures of clipped sine waves, are needed to tell the real story. The one time domain measurement frequently seen in equipment reviews is the 10kHz square wave. This measurement is usually made with a small signal— far from saturation— and provides the same information as the frequency response curve. SPICE produces output in both time and frequency domain.

The second problem is that conventional measurements are taken only at an amplifier’s external connections: A signal is fed into the input terminals and measured at the output terminals. What happens inside the circuit can make the difference between sonic mediocrity and distinction. With SPICE, you can probe deep inside of circuits. I’ve made measurements that would be difficult, expensive, and time-consuming with hardware instruments; measurements rarely if ever seen in equipment reviews; measurements that correlate much more closely with sound quality than such old standbys as harmonic distortion and frequency response. We’ve known for a long time they didn’t hold the secrets."

 

In the rest of the article, he expands more on those points.

 

It's an interesting quick 1st look. I think smug is putting a $13,000 / 25W per channel amp and then turning up the bullshit machine and provide no real data about how the amp measures.

 

You really should avoid throwing insults around. I have seen you on this and on other threads using expletives, belittling people, condemning companies, and so on when it is clear that you do not look or think beyond what the measurements are actually telling you. The thread that Jud started on the microrendu that invited you to explain yourself (which you ignored) is one example. You appear to suffer from confirmation bias - if it fits your preconcieved notions about high-end audio, you immediately share it along with vexatious claims about how it is all a con without taking the critical step of analyzing the data first. In this case, Archimago has done some measurements, but has failed to test the amplifiers more comprehensively.

 

BTW, I am used to reading papers in academic journals. Often, the data says one thing and the conclusion may say another. This is because the people who conducted the experiment were hoping to obtain a certain outcome, and they try to massage their data to best fit their intentions as much as possible. The peer review process in better journals cuts down on this, but careful reading is still required. In short: you look at what the data tells you, or doesn't tell you, and then you look at the conclusion. In this case, the conclusion does not appear to acknowledge that there are other aspects of performance which he failed to test. It fit his agenda, and that was it. And you swallowed it.