dCS Network Bridge

[AmusedToD]

Has anybody compared the dCS NB to the likes of Sotm sms200Ultra or ultraRendu?

[AmusedToD]

Well, the NAC272 is not a dedicated streamer like the NDS, is that right? Better to compare the dCS to the likes of Sonore, SOTM, Auralic, Aurender, etc.

[AmusedToD]

9 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

Not wrong but I am comparing it to what I had. And the 272 is first and foremost a streamer.

 

Fair enough, never saw it or heard it so I can't comment. 

 

What are the master clock options on the market that could provide SQ benefits to the dCS NB, apart from dCS's offerings that cost an arm and a leg? Any idea?

[AmusedToD]

22 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Wonder if Steven rather than Michael will do the review. I've an upgraded microRendu (new board) and Signature LPS in my other system since putting the dCS into my primary system. I've had no desire to return the Sonore gear to test, since it would also require adding back my Berkeley Alpha USB converter to support the Ref. 2 DAC. 

 

As for comparison, the only worthy DAC I'm aware of capable of USB input is the Schitt Yggdrasil. And I'm uncertain that USB is it's preferred input over S/PDIF.  In this arena, assessments by reviewers are best when apples to apples comparisons.  The Network Bridge, not sending out USB, and unlikely that it would be a preferred method in any case, would prove a problematic choice. And using a USB to S/PDIF converter would slight either component under test. 

 

How does the MicroRendu with Signature LPS stack against the dCS NB? Is the dCS a worthy upgrade?

[AmusedToD]

12 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

FYI, I'm using an Audio Alchemy DDP-1 in my other system with the Sonore gear. The DDP-1 has USB, so I don't need the Berkeley D-D converter. I've no interest in A-B testing of dCS vs. Sonore in that system, nor swapping my Berkeley Ref 2 DAC with DDP-1, which would make for such a comparison. I'll leave that to any reviewer out there that wants to do so...and thinks it's of "real" value. 

 

Any functiinality issues with the dCS? Is it stable in operation? Are you using Roon with it, and if yes, have you experienced any stability issues, pops, clicks, skipping songs, anything like that?

[AmusedToD]

48 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Awaiting firmware fixes as well as the free MQA firmware.  The one bit I found to be an issue, though infrequent, is switching bitrates. Sometimes when Roon/MacMini is sending bitstreams of one bitrate, say 44kbps w. 16 depth, and then to another song with 192/24 the dCS is not quick to respond or correctly respond.  You get around this via a delay in Roon settings of a second (1000ms).  The only other thing that was due to my system setup is that I needed to enable control flow within my smart switch (Cisco) so as not to "overrun" the Roon software buffering.  Once done, never saw an issue since.  Very rarely do I get any hiccups, and they do not seem to be due to the dCS, but more likely either macOS/Roon platform.  Usually it's either a sudden playback stop with restart or other similar anomaly.  I know it's not the source, since I can even backtrack playback and not see an issue with the NAS.  Likely as not, it's some memory buffering in software; but I've no way to trace it or otherwise troubleshoot.  Hoping by moving from MacMini to Roon's upcoming Nucleus hardware/software device, I'll not even have these very occasional issues.

 

Did you test a direct bridged connection from you Mac Mini to the dCS? That's a rather great discovery of @romaz, and a very well known tweak on this forum (check the big thread "A novel way to massively...")

[AmusedToD]

On 1.8.2017. at 9:01 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Have them all but haven't done a comparison.

 

Did you manage to compare the UltraRendu to the dCS NB?

[AmusedToD]

I placed an order for the dCS NB. A blind buy, but hopefully the right choice. It ticks all the boxes for me: 

 

1. Roon endpoint 

2. High quality internal linear PSU 

3. High quality construction 

4. The performance can be upgraded via an external clocking device at a later stage (perhaps even with the upcoming SOTM master clock if it proves to be compatible)

5. USB output with a firmware upgrade 

 

I couldn't care less about DSD512 or similar gimicks, redbook and a few hi res 24/192 files are all I care about.

 

I will report how it fares against the SOTM sms200Ultra next week.

[AmusedToD]

49 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Not exactly the "horses mouth" but in http://highfidelity.pl/@main-759&lang=en it states:

"...The Stream Unlimited module is plugged in the main PCB prepared by dCS. This arrangement provides several additional possibilities: the signal is additionally clocked, there is also a multi-stage linear power supply, isolating the digital section and the oscillators. This large PCB features the above mentioned FPGA, as well as two beautiful oscillators, mechanically compensated and temperature controlled (they have their own "heating" that stabilizes their temperature)."

 

Thank you, Steve. Yes, this review is exactly where I read about the linear PSU.

 

There is another review that says:

 

The Stream Unlimited module is plugged in the main PCB prepared by dCS. This arrangement provides several additional possibilities: the signal is additionally clocked, there is also a multi-stage linear power supply, isolating the digital section and the oscillators. This large PCB features the above mentioned FPGA, as well as two beautiful oscillators, mechanically compensated and temperature controlled (they have their own "heating" that stabilizes their temperature).

 

http://highfidelity.pl/@main-759&lang=en

 

This is also interesting (the making of the dCS NB): http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/10/making-dcs-network-bridge.html?m=1

 

 

 

[AmusedToD]

17 minutes ago, Beolab said:

Discovered that the dCS Bridge can read MQA files, it see them as a 24/48khz Flac file. 

 

I did not know that it could read / see them at all witout the MQA upgrade. Other streamers can see them but they just read them as 16/44.1 files. 

 

Two examples: 

 

Steely Dan : Two against Nature 

 

Kari Bremnes: Det Vi har 

albums

 

If you are using TIDAL MQA, 24/48 is what you will get from MQA files (when fully unfolded they will go up to 24/192, and some files even up to DXD - 24/384).

 

dCS announced that the Network Bridge will be able to do the first unfolding of MQA, but only after a firmware upgrade some time in the future. Not sure if they released it already.

[AmusedToD]

Ok guys, I discussed this with @Beolab in private messages, but I think this is a rather interesting matter and would like to ask other dCS owners too of their experiences. The matter involves 2 situations:

 

1. dCS Network Bridge connected via dual AES to a dCS DAC (Paganini in my case)

2. dCS Network Bridge connected via dual AES to a dCS DAC, with an external dCS Master clock added into the mix

 

The NB has 2 word clock inputs, one accepts 44.1 and multiples (meaning 88.2, 176.4 and 352.8) and the other accepts 48 and multiples (meaning 96, 192, 384). Everything is clear with this.

 

The NB has also 1 word clock output which outputs data rate up to 96. So if I slave the Paganini clock input directly to the NB clock output, I will get only up to 96 because this is the limit of the NB’s clock output according to the manual. So if I don’t have an external Master clock, and just connect the clock output of the NB to the clock input of the Paganini, what happens if I play files with sample rates higher than 24/96 (which is the upper limit of the NB clock output)? Will I lose the sync?

 

Now let’s add the Master clock into the mix, and this becomes only more confusing. 

 

I can connect the 44.1 (and multiples) word clock output on the master clock to the 44.1 (and multiples) input on the NB input, and 48 (and multiples) word clock output on the master clock to the 48 (and multiples) on the NB input. This is clear. 

 

However, the Paganini DAC has only 1 word clock input that accepts all data rates up to 192, regardless if they are multiples of 44.1 or 48, meaning it can accept 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192.

 

So which output on the Master clock should be connected to the Paganini clock input? As far as I understand, there are no word clock outputs on any dCS Master clock that support both 44.1 and 48 (and multiples of both) simultaneously? Or did I get all this wrong?

 

 

 

[AmusedToD]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I got some help from dCS on this one:

 

Begin quote

 

"dCS started adding word clock I/O to consumer products in 1999. These features have been on our pro products from 1989.

-          1st Generation 1999 to 2007 – Classic products: Elgar Plus / Delius / Purcell / Verdi / Verona. These have a basic clocking interface where the clock frequency must match the (single wire) sample rate. So, the DAC accepts a 44.1kHz word clock for 44.1 data, or a 96kHz word clock for Dual AES 192kS/s data, for example. Single-wire interfaces are limited to 96 maximum.  

 

-          2nd Generation 2007 to 2015 – Scarlatti / Paganini / Puccini / Debussy. These can multiply the clock frequency by 0.25 / 0.5 / 1 / 2 / 4 to match the sample rate. So, the DAC accepts a clock at 44.1, 88.2 or 176.4kHz for data at 44.1, 88.2, 176.4 or DSD. Similarly with 48, 96 and 192 clock and data rates. More flexible. (This multiplier feature was added to Elgar Plus also.) Computer audio causes a problem here, because the sample rate can change from one file to another. If the sample rate is not an exact multiple of the clock frequency, the DAC will lose lock with the Master Clock. There are ways around this, but they not ideal.

 

-          3rd Generation 2012 to present – Vivaldi / Rossini / Network Bridge. These have our advanced clocking system, featuring 2 word clock inputs that can each lock to word clock at 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 or 192kHz. Now you can drive the Upsampler and DAC with bothbase clock frequencies simultaneously. Yhey can choose the compatible clock automatically and it is “set & forget”.

 

We designed the Network Bridge with the intention of serving all 3 generations or products. You can connect  both clock inputs to a Vivaldi or Rossini Master Clock and drive it with both 44.1 and 48kHz. The asynchronous USB interface regulates the delivery of data from the network to match the Clock frequency, or a multiple, changing clocks inputs as needed.

 

With a 3rd Generation DAC and Upsampler, lock them to both frequencies also. For the earlier DACs and Upsamplers, slave to the Bridge’s word clock output instead. The 96kHz limit here ensures even a 1stGeneration system can keep more of the benefit from locking the Bridge to the Master Clock.

 

So, in ToD’s system, you can play a 24/192 file with the Bridge locked to the Master Clock – it will select the 48kHz Clock output. The data output can be single-wire or Dual AES into the Paganini DAC. Connect the Bridge’s clock output (96kHz) to the DAC and set the Sync Source to WClk. The DAC locks and the system is happy.

If you play a 24/88.2 file, the Bridge will swap to the 44.1kHz clock input, change its clock output to 88.2kHz, the DAC will re-lock and play.

 

This setup will also work very nicely with our Classic Elgar Plus or Delius DACs, as intended. You can use the NB app to set the Bridge to match the lower data rate capabilities of these older designs.    

 

Clocking can become fiendishly complicated, but the new system definitely cuts a lot of this out."

 

End quote

 

Thank you for your post, this is exactly what I wanted to know. It just proves my concerns: although the Paganini DAC accepts 24/384 through the dual AES inputs, clocking is still limited to 24/96 because the clock output on the Network Bridge supports sample rates up to 96khz (even though the Paganini DAC accepts up to 192 on its clock input).

 

The only way to exploit the full clocking capabilities of two dCS devices from a master clock, regardless of sample rate (up to 24/384), is to have a Network Bridge, a Rossini or Vivaldi DAC and a Vivaldi Master clock.

 

Why Vivaldi clock? Because it is only Master clock capable of outputting both 44.1 and multiples (up to 354.8) and 48 and multiples (up to 384) to 2 devices simultaneously, and the Rossini/Vivaldi are the only DACs capable of accepting both 44.1 and multiples (up to 354.8) and 48 and multiples (up to 384) from a Master clock simultaneously, without limiting the rate to 96 or 192.

 

In practice, the Vivaldi clock would be connected via 2 BNC cables to the Network Bridge clock inputs, and also via 2 BNC cables to the Rossini/Vivaldi DAC clock inputs, and both devices would be synchronized to the Master clock with its auto clocking capabilities, meaning that every sample rate would work flawlessly, without the need to downsample from the Network Bridge.

 

Even the Rossini Clock can’t do that because it has only 3 clock outputs.

 

Such a shame to limit the full benefits only to the Vivaldi clock.

[AmusedToD]

59 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Isn't this where the Paganini's multiplier comes in? I may be totally off, but can't it take a 96kHz clock on the input, and multiply by 4 to sync to a 384kHz track on dual-AES?

 

And - I'll shut up now - I don't have personal experience with dCS word clocks. I was just going off my understanding of what Chris relayed.

 

Well, not exactly. The Network Bridge can output up to 96 on its clock output (If you read the post by @The Computer Audiophile  carefully, you will see that dCS recommends slaving the NB to an external master clock, and then slaving the DAC to the Network Bridge). The problem is the limitation of the NB’s clock output. So you cannot output 24/384 from the dual AES of the NB to the Paganini DAC and have the clocks synchronized because the clock output of the NB is limited to 96. So you would need to downsample to 24/96 in the NB’s settings.

 

The only way to have 24/384 fully synchronized to an external master clock is to have a Vivaldi clock and a Rossini/Vivaldi DAC. 

 

So even though the Paganini DAC supports up to 192 on its single clock input, the problem is the limitation of the clock output on the Network Bridge. I can’t see the rationale for limiting the clock output to 96 only if older dCS DACs are capable of up to 192 on their clock inputs. This way dCS is basically forcing us to buy a Vivaldi Master clock and/or Rossini/Vivaldi DAC to experience high res files with high sample rates that are fully synchronized to a Master clock without downsampling, even though some older DACs like the Paganini accept up to 192 on the clock input.

 

The logical choice would be limiting the clock output on the Network Bridge to 192, as this would insure full synchronization of the Paganini DAC up to 24/192. So if one wishes to play high res files through the Network Bridge and have a Paganini DAC slaved to the NB’s clock output (like myself), downsapling to 24/96 is the only option.

[AmusedToD]

15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I did read the post very carefully. The clock rate does not need to equal the sample rate. The way I read this below, the DAC will work with a variety of clock rates, as long as the sample rate is a 0.25 / 0.5 / 1 / 2 / 4x multiple of the clock.

 

 

Since 384 = 96 x 4, why do you think this won't work?

 

 

 

In the NB - Paganini DAC setup with an external master clock, it will work like this:

 

2 BNC clock cables from 2 Master clock outputs to 2 clock inputs on the Network Bridge. This way all sample rates are covered up to 44.1 x 4 and 48 x 4. This means the NB is fully synchronized to the Master clock.

 

1 BNC cable from the NB clock output to the single clock input on the Paganini DAC. This means the Paganini is slaved to the NB, which in turn is slaved to the Master clock.

 

However, even though you can output the same 24/384 to the Paganini though the dual AES connection (and such file will be played by the DAC in full resolution), you won’t be able to have the clock of the DAC synchronized to the clock of the NB (which is synchronized to the Master clock) because the single clock output of the NB is limited to 96! 

 

In other words, a 24/384 file played back through the NB into a Paganini DAC via the dual AES connection will be reproduced by the Paganini, but only if the clock of the Paganini is not synced to the clock of the NB. If you want them synced, the maximum resolution is 24/96 because the NB’s clock output is limited to 96.

 

 

[AmusedToD]

28 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

So the Paganini won't multiply the clock signal like dCS says it will?

 

I think what they wanted to say it that the Paganini will multiply the 44.1 and 48 rates received from a master clock (because this is the data rate that the Master clock sends, it doesn’t send 96 or 192 or higher, it always sends 44.1 or 48 and then the DAC multiplies it to match the sample rate of the digital file, provided it’s 0.25 / 0.5 / 1 / 2 / 4 of the clock frequency rate. And this is absolutely true. But when connected to the Network Bridge clock output instead of a Master clock, I think it cannot lock to a rate higher than 24/96 because this is the maximum the NB’s clock output sends, and in this particular setup the Paganini does not lock to a master clock but to the Network Bridge. 

 

Perhaps I got all this wrong. If I got it wrong (and I really wish I have for it would make my life much easier), then the Paganini will multiple the 96 rate from the NB’s output and a 24/384 file will be played while the Paganini clock is synced to the NB clock.

 

But I don’t think this will happen without downsampling to 24/96 in the NB settings. 

 

[AmusedToD]

3 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

We’re just curious, but you’re the one on the verge of buying a Paganini!

 

If it were me, I’d pick up the phone and call them up and ask them directly, rather than try to parse what their words meant.

 

I sent them an email a week ago and they never responded. Not to happy about making international calls for something they can clear out in an email.

 

I bought the Paganini already, expecting delivery next week. The NB is already in my possession, but can’t use it as I have no DAC at the moment.

 

The sample rate thing is no deal breaker for me, I will be more than happy with redbook knowing the performance level of dCS gear. But it would be nice to have the ability of smooth high res playback and have the clocks synced while doing that. I guess I will have to settle with 24/96, unless they increase the clock output of the NB to 192 (to match the Paganini clock input).

[AmusedToD]

Just now, austinpop said:

 

So it’s moot at this point.

 

Please update us with the answer once you’ve tried it with a DXD track, with the NB clock connected to the Paganini. Either it’ll work, or it won’t.

 

Exactly! And I most certainly will, no way to know unless I try. However this will be a direct NB - Paganini clock connection, without a Master clock. 

[AmusedToD]

Well, I see no reason why it shouldn’t work. But I think you need to wait for the USB output on the NB to be enabled by the announced software update (unless the Mutec MC3+USB features other digital inputs as well, I am not that familiar with the product). You should also check how the MC3’s word clock distribution really works. The NB has 2 clock inputs and those can receive 44.1 or 48 rates and then multiply them to match the sample rates of the files your play through the Bridge.

 

I think someone already tried the MC3 with the NB and reported no sonic benefits, but the Ref10 connected to a MC3 would be a different beast altogether.

 

I believe the clocks inside the NB are superior to those inside the MC3, unless you use an external reference clock like the Ref10 on the MC3.

 

Best thing would be to demo it all before making a buying decision. Or you can consider getting a used dCS master clock with a 10Mhz input and attach the Ref10 to it, that might be the ultimate proposition.

[AmusedToD]

8 minutes ago, KunterK said:

I tried it with the Rossini clock but did not hear any improvements. NB sounds very jitter free as is. Simple is better I guess. It even sounded better all around compared to a Vivaldi Upsampler to my ears, but ymmv.

 

Interesting findings. Does your TotalDac have a word clock input? If it doesn’t, then using a Master clock on the NB itself (without syncing the DAC at the same time) is probably the reason why you heard no meaningful upgrade, because the clocks inside the NB are already excellent.

[AmusedToD]

10 minutes ago, KunterK said:

Exactly my point...

 

I did not try the Vivaldi Clock though, which might be superior to Rossini Clock. And I have no experience with the MC3

 

NB provides the best digital I heard in my system so far... 

 

Just updated my signature too... I guess things have moved so fast for me...

 

Perhaps, but without slaving the DAC to it I think it doesn't make much sense.

 

You have some impressive components in your setup (Rockport Altair, Gryphon, etc.). Wow!

 

Speaking of which, did you find the i5 Intel NUC to be sufficient as a Roon server, do you upsample in Roon/HQ player and did you place the NUC on a linear PSU or not? I wonder whether a high end server improves on the Network Bridge at all or not, in which case a NUC would do it.

[AmusedToD]

53 minutes ago, Confused said:

Absolutely, the good thing about the Network Bridge is that it is one thing I could easy get for home demo, I have a good relationship with a dealer that has a demo unit in store.  I would have a problem getting hold of Sonore or SOtM alternatives for comparison though, not an easy thing to do in the UK.  BTW, the Mutec MC3+USB also has AES/EBU (XLR) input, so a Network Bridge + Mutec MC3+USB set up could be a USB free solution.

 

Perfect, then by all accounts give it a try with the Ref10 and please report back.

[AmusedToD]

54 minutes ago, KunterK said:

I set up the NUC only today and I have ROCK on it. Previously I was using a Synology NAS and no Roon. Compared to the NAS/NB setup, I don't hear any problems.

 

My fanless case will arrive in a couple of weeks and I will then go to a Paul Hynes power supply as well. Not much point until then, as there is a fan in the NUC case which probably is doing all nasty things on the power supply rails. 

 

And Roon needs to finish the analysis and quiet down as well for me have a better opinion.

 

The best sound through NB came when used with a homebrew NAS using battery powered Asus Tinkerboard running minimserver. So I have my reference there. Lets see if the NUC/Roon will catch that. Its a very close call now. But the user experience in Roon is so good, I am not bothered with slightly lower sound quality.

 

I am not using upsampling or HQPlayer now. I tried briefly, and yes things sound a bit better with roon upsampling and yes NUC7i5 seems to handle it like a champ. No other DSP's though. I will try to give more info once things settle and quiet down. My DAC might not be the best for upsampling due to the design...

 

I use an external USB HDD to NUC, with which I also use a DC iPurifier, and connect it with Audioquest Cinnamon USB Cable.

 

Also, as mentioned many times elsewhere, optical isolation is a gem connecting NB to the switch. All these add up. quite nicely.

 

Yes, the fan inside the NUC is the main reason I am still using my iMac, not sure it would be a meaningful upgrade over the Mac. I am intrigued by the Sonictransporter though which is supposed to be fanless and completely silent. 

[AmusedToD]

3 hours ago, yellowblue said:

For those who missed it...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box.787020/page-69#post-13801299

Romaz is alive!

 

Good to know Romaz is still active! Curious why he has found the Network Bridge to sound thin, most reviews say exactly the opposite...

 

This review put an emphasis on “full bodied and close detailed”

 

 

This review says:”The sound was “meaty”, there was commitment, power.”

 

http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-759&lang=en

 

 

[AmusedToD]

Paganini and Network Bridge in the house! May the warm up begin

 

 

 

[AmusedToD]

20 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Awesome news!

 

I have the perfect burn-in music to put on Auto repeat: Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini, composed by Sergei Rachmaninoff.

 

Thanks, Rajiv! I’ll give it a listen, even though I have just started exploring classical music, so any directions from you would be highly appreciated!

 

The first and only test for this night, I connected the word clock out on the NB to the word clock in on the Paganini via a 0.7m Oyaide solid silver BNC cable. Guess what, the Paganini locks to 24/192 (even though the NB supposedly sends only up to 96 through the wclk out). So if the clocks are really synced (not sure how to confirm this), then my assumptions are apparently wrong and I am so very glad they are, no need to downsample in NB!