Future proof multiroom audio for new house

[Erwin S]

Hello,

 

Can I get some advice about the optimum audio system for the new house my wife and I are building within a few months.

 

I designed the house myself with some help from the architect since I am a building construction manager. Although we are in Belgium where 95% of the house are brick, the house will be self-constructed in wood with TJI-joists en finished with drywall not unlike most American houses. This means we have al the possibilty to install all the wiring etc we want. Styling is modernistic, minimalistic even, so we would prefer to hide "everything" as much as possible.

 

If I have my way we would have 11 zones including 2 outdoor terraces. The house will have a homecinema in a room that doubles as a 2nd living space. We don't need video in all rooms.

 

My local A/V dealer, who is not too keen on computer audio BTW, suggests to keep it simple. He says to keep the homecinema and the main livingroom separate and to go for a 6 zone Russound. I would prefer a whole house system for all the rooms if possible. Not all rooms need to have superior sound. But I would not want to compromise the sound in the homecinema where the equipment (B&W CT-700 + Parasound Halo) will cost over 20,000 € nor in the living room.

 

I made a scheme with Sonos. See pdf attached. Any thoughts? For best possible sound in the homecinema I think we can use a ZP90 and use the (digital) optical connection to the Parasound Halo C3 and something similar for the living room. For other zones I would like to try the AVI's with subwoofer. The "lesser" zones would use a ZP120 with ceiling speakers.

 

I would like a system that can be controlled with the iPhone. All my music is ripped in Apple Lossless using iTunes on an iMac. I would transfer it to a NAS when we go in the new house. We will keep the old house because I work here. New house will be weekend-only the first years at least.

 

What I would really like is a centralised system like Russound using keypads for control and still have the control the Sonos offers. Sonos not working on an inwall solution with a 6-Zoneplayer? I know I can put all the ZP's in 1 place but you would still need the Bridge in every room. If nothing changes I could probably centralize some of the ZP's and hide the others.

 

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

An alternative...

 

You could look at NaimNet solutions. Combine the NS music servers (versions of the HDX for custom install) with "Room Amps". All the cabling is Cat5 to the room amp and use standard Ethernet switches. You can also add othe sources, radio, etc.

 

Will give you high quality audio throughout an VERY HQ for main room.

Off the top of my head I'd suggest a HDX and analogue output for the main room, and an NS01 digital to Parasound C3 (or whatever) for the home cinema. The NS01 and HDX between them should be able to stream audio to the other required zones.

 

Look at naimnet.com for further details. Not sure of exact costs but will be higher than Sonos but can also integrate HVAC and lighting controls, etc if you desired.

 

My other alternative would be to use individual UPnP clients (such as Linn DS clients) back to a single NAS solution. OR look at analogue system such as Imerge with Creastron or AMX control.

 

Eloise

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Have you thought about Airport Express units in each zone? This could deliver digital to the DAC or Receiver of your choice. All controlled via iPod Touch.

 

[vortecjr]

http://www.crestron.com/downloads/application_diagrams/207/adagio_system_with_cen-iserver.pdf

 

Just keep it away from your hi-hi room....hehehe

 

Regards

 

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

[CharlyD]

Ensure that every room and your terraces have at least one 1000base-T ethernet connection. This will require choosing the correct cable type and associated routers and switches. Include at least one large and expandable NAS with media serving capabilities (not a proprietary server) in a central wiring closet. The Naim devices suggested by Eloise would be very good choices for hi-quality audio. The Linn DS line would also be an excellent choice. Have a look at Control4 or life|ware for home automation solutions. Netstreams also offers some very good solutions for IP-based control and media distribution. Choose an installer who is fluent in and enthusiastic about IP-based contrl and media distribution and can offer long-term support.

 

[vortecjr]

that you could send a life time researching as its a huge industry with a sea of products. My home automation involves two ir light switches....hehehehe. Oh yeah I also have a lazy mans remote for my air conditioning to control it from bed

 

Regards

 

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

 

[thequietman]

I am using sonos for my 4 zones. I also have a mac mini with weiss dac for 2 channel.

 

Basically, the mac + weiss gives me the best 2 channel sound, the weiss can also accept a signal from the zp80.

 

To be really honest only I get a kick out of the mac mini + weiss setup...or appreciate the extra quality, being able to play high res files, they are stunning.

Everyone else however, elderly parents, visitors even small children can operate the sonos within minutes, they have access to my music library, music services and international radio.They love the variety of choice on offer.

 

Highly recommended and inexpensive compared to other options. My iphone controls the sonos system and the mac mini system. You can easily integrate the sonos with a highend 2 channel or home theater system. The only limit to sonos is it will not at present play high res files , but will play cds ripped in lossless formats, flac, alac .

 

Enjoy, thequietman

 

[Erwin S]

All good idea's.

 

I did have a look before on the website from NaimNet but could not make much of it (I know nothing about electronics), but I know their reputation regarding hifi. So I will look into that.

 

If I'm not mistaken, a system with Airport Express would not alow to play diffferent songs in different zones. I would really want all the possibilities that Sonos offers.

 

I actually did meet with a specialist in home automation (domotica controling screens, lights, heating, ventilation etc) but I was not sure about his audiophile intentions. He uses his own house for demo, which is brilliant, and he certainly knows what he is talking about. He showed me a Sqeezebox radio in his kitchen and that thing is just not the sound quality I am looking for. I think I need to have my audio dealer and the domotica man work together for a solution.

 

I have just discovered the Meridian Sooloos. That looks nice, though I would need to keep the budget below 1000€ per zone, not including NAS, homecinema nor speakers.

 

 

 

[redscouser]

If you are going to run cat cable to each room you should think about running fibre optic at the same time.

 

[Erwin S]

Update

 

I mailed the domotica expert for his opinion about the connectivity of the NaimNet system. He thinks that Naim offers about the same functionality that reVox does: http://www.revox.de/index.tpl?iid=l64a1b11c2d30&lang=2&iid2=12

Both reVox and Russound are associated with KNX so it works with many other products like hubs and keypads.

 

Problem is that NaimNet is really expensive, probably at least 3000$/zone, not including speakers. I could not even find prices for reVox, but they are from Switzerland, the most expensive country in Europe, so enough said... out of my leage I am afraid.

 

If I would set up a Cat5 (or Cat6 for a few more cents per metre) wired Sonos system with a NAS as a central source, would it be possible to put a Mac Mini in the "Hifi" zone that also has acces to the same NAS simultaniously? This way, I would not have to depend on Sonos for the sound quality in the main room. I would still provide the HiFi zone with a ZP90 which I would connect optical to a DAC into the stereo for convenience.

 

I see 3 levels of sound quality I would like in the new house and here is my idea for setting it up with Sonos and Cat6:

 

MidFi for 2 exterior zones, kitchen, Nicole's office, master bedroom and the ensuite bathroom. In total: 6 zones, all inceiling speakers from KEF or basic B&W powered with 6 ZP120 located in the central (ventilated) storage-rack (that also contains the homecinema equipment). It needs rather long speaker wires (max 20 metres) but they could be rather basic. I would also need to add a few ZoneBridges but these could be placed in ceiling voids or behind closed doors, not?

These zones should have decent background music, but with enough detail and quality not to annoy. The architecture more or less leaves no option but inceiling speakers in these zones. We are looking for a minimalistic looking approach.

 

HiFi for the 2 youngsters and my home office I would put in 3 local ZP90, each connected optical to a pair of AVI ADM9.1 and maybe the matching SW. They would fit nice in Piano White since the whole house interior except for the homecinema will be white, even the floors will be white (already have the matching white pyjama...). This would provide for some serious listening!

 

Reference I don't mean esoteric level but for the living room I could connect both a ZP90 and a Mac Mini together with a CD player and my Pro-Ject turntable to the Benchmark http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/system1/digital-analog-converter/dac1-hdr and then balanced into a poweramplifier with good speakers. The homecinema could have a similar approach with another mac Mini and a ZP90 optically feeding the Parasound Halo C3 processor and so on.

 

All the music would be stored in a central NAS. I have now 18.000 songs in Apple Lossless format.

 

How does this sound?

 

 

 

 

 

[Erwin S]

Combination cable. I discovered a cable wich has an empty tube twinned to it for future installation of glasfibre...

 

[redscouser]

Structured cable runs. run all your data cables in one.

 

http://www.scpcat5e.com/cables/structuredwire/structuredwiring.php

 

 

Mark

 

[Audio_ELF]

Sounds generally good setup - will you have a controller in each room?

 

The zp120 maybe better located local to the speakers rather than located centrally.

 

Eloise

 

[thequietman]

I am doing so, with no problems. Sonos also feeds the same dac as mac mini.

Enjoy

thequietman

 

[Erwin S]

Eloise,

 

I flagged you by mistake.

 

Problem with ZP120 near the speakers I think is that the amplifier heat will prevent them to be placed out of sight, no?

 

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

Just reading your original post again make me think...

 

I might be a more DIY system, but may e worth taking a look at Cambridge Audio and their Inognito system. This gives on the wall "keypads" which you could use with Squeeze box devices for basic control (play / pause / skip) via remote and also use iPod touch for actually selecting music.

 

The actual cabling you use is Cat5. Not sure how close to your desired level of SQ this would be.

 

Eloise

 

[Audio_ELF]

You could be right - I hadn't thought about heat levels.

 

Eloise

 

[wappinghigh]

Whatever you chose from these suggestions, you are on the right track. The question was "future Proof"...well pretty much all these solutions are networkable multiroom audio products....ie cat5/6 going out from main controller to the peripheral zones.

 

Networkable zone multiroom audio IS the future! Stay clear of any fixed solutions. As I've said before, I'd go with the original and best. Tried and proven. Most of the networkability issues ironed out over the years, by forum members like me. That's Sonos. And don't forget if the ethernet wires don't work or there is a difficult spot where you can't get to with wires, or you move in a couple of years (you can take your system with you)..that zone or two can be wireless! Brilliant!

 

 

 

[Elprior]

Hi Erwin,

 

I'm just finishing my new apartment right now, with the same questions that arouse at time.

 

I've decided to go this way :

1) Cat7 cable in-walls.

2) Cat6 plugs everywhere (3/4 per room, might need more in a house with big rooms).

3) Windows laptop plus BelCanto usb link.

4) Dedicated mains line for every audio system.

5) Gigabit switch (16 ports) + router (100 Mb) connected to the internet.

6) A dac/pre-pro wherever I want to listen to music, connected to usual hifi stuff ((pre-)amplifiers/speakers).

7) A dedicated computer for content providing (just like a nas, but faster, and not much more expensive).

 

Definitely, I'm not controlling one room content from another one (although that would be possible).

The windows + belcanto combo is moving with me (a bit annoying I must admit).

And the software I'm using for playback is playing from memory (so long for the physical provider war).

 

Of course, my 14 months old son is always playing with the network cable connected to the laptop

This is ok as long as I keep an eye on him (might be a security issue, so I'm removing the cable as soon as I stop using it, but that's another story).

 

Otherwise, there is no interference, it sounds rather good, and the same collection of music is available everywhere.

Fortunately, cat7 is enough to cope with future uses (hd video, ...), but grade3 or optical would be even better (as far as bandwidth is concerned).

 

hth,

Elp

 

[Happy]

Erwin

 

This should be a blast - I have recently done my (large) house. Here are some recommendations:

 

1. If possible have a centralised room dedicated to the items below - the room does not have to be large - mine is central in the house to minimise cable runs.

 

2. Hub ALL cables to this room. This gives you maximum flexibility and futureproofing - most architectures for sound/video/alarm/lighting/power are hub/spoke oriented.

 

3. I selected a cable that consisited of 4 'sub cables'. The sub cables were 2 cat6 plus 2 video. I ran this cable to every room - sometimes two to a room. This lowers the cost of installation significantly.

 

4. Cat 6 will future proof you. I wouldn't recommend exotics like fibre etc...

 

5. If you choose a media room - then run dedicated power feeds from your hub room. Also run conduit so that you can pull any cables easily in the future.

 

6. In your media room - run conduit in the walls from the rack position to all walls - this will allow you to pull specific cables in the future.

 

7. The Hub room also allows you to centralise video feeds, computer servers, alarm systems, home lighting systems, ethernet switiching.

 

Typically you only have one chance to do this is the lifetime of the house - when the walls are off.

 

The above will future proof you. If you want any specifics or photos illustrating any of this feel free to contact me.

 

Good luck - thinking of these things at this time will save you lots of $$$ down the line.

 

/Paul

 

[Erwin S]

"7. The Hub room also allows you to centralise video feeds, computer servers, alarm systems, home lighting systems, ethernet switiching."

 

Makes sence!

The house wil indeed have a "service" room (it is the place where we control ventilation, heating etc) where the ethernet and electricity enters the house, behind Nicole's office. It is on the right side of the 30 x 7,5 metre floorplan (100 by 25 feet big shoebox), not in the centre. The homecinema with the A/V rack however is more to the left. But the service room would indeed be more logical. 1 big brain makes more sense than 2!

 

Those who are curious are welcome to download the pdf of both floors. It's scaled down to 1/50.

Ground level with homecinema is this link: 3,28 MB!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/otyabd

2nd level:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/az3nll

 

It is a passive design with massive insulation, we will add PV cells later for 100% zero emission. The triple glass windows (with screens) to the south will heat the house even on cold but sunny days...

 

 

 

 

[Happy]

This is probably outside the scope of this forum so briefly;

 

When I designed my 'Media Room' I was very concerned about the acoustics of the room; room modes etc.. I was pouring lots of $$$ into the equipment and I didn't want the room to kill the sound. After a lot of research I hired Rives Audio to model and design the room - they specilaise in rooms of 8000 cu ft and below.

 

I learnt a lot and the room is outstanding for both Home Theatre and Audiophile listening. Strangely the cost of doing this was low. I did all of this by email - held design reviews by mail etc...

I think the design cost me $3k - the best 3k I've ever spent on Audio stuff. Anyway check them out - also check out their competitors. - Don't make the mistake of soundproofing the room!

 

/Paul

 

[thequietman]

Might be just what you need for your new house

thequietman

 

[Erwin S]

I saw it yesterday already and I wondered how long it would be before you notified me...

 

Specs look promising and the price is OK, but we will have to wait and see if such a tiny thing can produce sweet music.

 

 

 

[samzam]

Try the audio system solutions provided by Crestron. They are a bit pricey but I've found them to be the best on the market.