ECdesigns

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 hours ago, hopkins said:

The sound quality is so obvious that he did not feel the need to compare with the powerDAC-R + amplifiers. We simply enjoyed listening to music for two hours. 

 

 

I should have said "the sound quality improvement with the S1". I don't want to sound presumptuous about the "absolute" quality of my system which can certainly be easily improved with better speakers and room. 

[Yehuda]

Hello,

 

Nice to e-meet you :-) 
I'm very new at the stereo coming from 5.1 systems. 
Lately I build my system:

Speakers:  Triangle Trio
Amp: Willsenton R8

Dac: Schiit Modi multibit v2

 

I'm looking for better DAC and I was referred to look ECDesigns - and from what I read its I'm very impressed.
I was thinking on U192 + DA96 since I use RasPi to stream my digital, but it seems that U192 is not produced any more - do you know where I can get this combo ( maybe second hand...)?

 

Thanks

Yehuda      

[Yehuda]

Hi,

I hope I'm asking it on the right topic...   
I wondering how good ECDesigns DAC is?

For the ones who own U192 + DA96, you could kindly share your impression and what was your previous DAC? 
The reason I'm asking is due the fact that I will not be able to listen it before my actual order...

Thanks in advance!
Yehuda

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Hi @Yehuda,

 

Why are you considering the older model instead of the powerDAC-R? The newer model is a significant improvement. 

[Yehuda]

Hi,

 

Few reasons:
1. Budget consideration... I just got new Amp & Speakers. 
2. Since I can't listen before my purchase - so its kind of risky step to take for ~1600 eur after import tax & shipment
3. My system is ok not amazing, its not a 20K setup where you can really benefit from an improved DAC ( my own personal opinion) ( assuming the step is from 8/10 to 9/10) - I got the impression DA96 is a fantastic unit
 
Originally I was thinking to buy a used Hegel HD25 or Chord Qutest to replace my Schiit modil multibit, my search started after I managed to listen to Hegel HD20 at my system - it really was a big step up from my DAC. 

Regards
Yehuda
        

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

That makes sense then. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I took the S1 to a dealer's this afternoon and listened to it with Audio Note AN-K/LX speakers (https://www.audionote.co.uk/an-k-speakers).

 

The sound was fabulous. We were playing CDs from an entry level Rega CD player. If some of you are still doubting the source immunity of the powerDAC, then you need to listen to the S model which really removes a further level of distortion (from the analog side) and lets the recording shine through :) 

 

The dealer was impressed and had a big smile on his face when listening to music. So did I. He kept telling me that "this thing is really good" ! He commented that the sound was  "tube like" (coming from him it was meant as a compliment). 

 

The speakers are rated 90db and are 6 ohm. The powerDAC-S1 outputs 2 Ohm. On some tracks, with low levels, maximum volume (11 on the LED display) is still not loud enough. On most tracks, volume level is fine for comfortable listening, and you don't feel like you would need more power, but this is something to consider.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I did not mention that I also tried the S1 yesterday with a French brand of speakers that most of you probably don't know: Mulidine speakers, Cadence model. These speakers were not really to my taste (too "polite") and even though on paper they are stated as 92db and 4 ohm I felt the S1 struggled more than with the Audio Note. It is a possibility that speaker manufacturer specifications may not always be very accurate...

 

https://en.mulidine.com/cadence-4c.html

 

Next I am going to see if I can bring the S1 to another dealer to test them with Klipsch Heresy 4 (rated 99db).

[yogibear]

It will shine with high dB speakers or even with single, full range drivers. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 minute ago, yogibear said:

It will shine with high dB speakers or even with single, full range drivers. 

 

Most certainly, but it was very impressive with the AN speakers also 🙂 

 

[yogibear]

I am very curious about S2 and how it will differ from S1 other than double the power output. 
 

However both S1 and S2 are revolutionary creations and may unsettle a lot in future…. I don’t have to put this in words….. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

I did not mention that I also tried the S1 yesterday with a French brand of speakers that most of you probably don't know: Mulidine speakers, Cadence model. These speakers were not really to my taste (too "polite") and even though on paper they are stated as 92db and 4 ohm I felt the S1 struggled more than with the Audio Note. It is a possibility that speaker manufacturer specifications may not always be very accurate...

 

https://en.mulidine.com/cadence-4c.html

 

Next I am going to see if I can bring the S1 to another dealer to test them with Klipsch Heresy 4 (rated 99db).

 

ECD pointed this out:

 

"Mulidine cadence With 4 Ohm impedance and 2.83V rms the current i equals 2.83 / 4 = 0.707A. The power applied to the speaker for 92dB @ 1 meter equals p = v * i = 2.83 * 0.707 = 2 watts !

 

This is -not- the same as 1W / 1m. If we halve the applied power to 1W, the sensitivity will drop well below 90dB. That's why it isn't playing as loud as one would expect from 92dB (1W / 1m)"

 

Stated specifications by manufacturers have to be read carefully...

[Norton]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

These speakers were not really to my taste (too "polite")

I don’t think you’ll find “politeness” a problem with the Heresy......My Cornwalls certainly tell it as it is.

 

Will be good to hear your impressions.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

For what it's worth, John send me calculations of the output power (per channel) which show the relationship between max output power of the S1 and various impedance loads. To summarize:

2 Ohm = 3.125W

4 Ohm = 2.76W

8 Ohm = 2W

 

 

 

[yogibear]

23 minutes ago, hopkins said:

For what it's worth, John send me calculations of the output power (per channel) which show the relationship between max output power of the S1 and various impedance loads. To summarize:

2 Ohm = 3.125W

4 Ohm = 2.76W

8 Ohm = 2W

 

 

 

Going by this S2 could be 4 watts at 8 ohm impedance load. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

You would have to confirm this with them. 

[tapatrick]

On 10/28/2021 at 11:32 AM, yogibear said:

Going by this S2 could be 4 watts at 8 ohm impedance load. 

All of the above reports confirm my conclusion that the extra power of the S2 is probably needed. I have been assured many times by manufacturers that low watt amps are enough to drive certain sensitive speakers (mine are 94.5 @ 8 ohms) but in the end I needed extra power (of a preamp) to get a satisfying result. It may work theoretically but I preferred a more 'muscular' quality and richer SQ that the extra power gives. YMMV

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

They informed me yesterday that they are going to test some changes to increase the power, and then they will update  the model I have so I can test things again on my side. I assume this is all going to take a few weeks, so stay tuned...

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, hopkins said:

They informed me yesterday that they are going to test some changes to increase the power, and then they will update  the model I have so I can test things again on my side. I assume this is all going to take a few weeks, so stay tuned...

 

I certainly am interested in the EC Designs DACs--due to the innovative engineering and positive reviews--and I would readily take a flyer on a purchase but there are a couple of big issues holding me back:

a) The 1.4VRMS output level of the PowerDAC-R is insufficient for max volume in my system;

b) You and others have been reporting that the performance of the PowerDAC-S significantly exceeds that of the PowerDAC-R;

c) The PowerDAC-S is unlikely to be sufficient to directly drive my speakers (which, while not totally inefficient at about 90.5dB/1w/1m do need some control in the bass);

d) The PowerDAC-S does not appear to have any RCA output to connect to a preamp.

e) I find 3dB level steps to be quite coarse, would greatly prefer 1.5 or 2 dB steps or some taper.

 

If the PowerDAC-S would offer RCA outputs at 2V--and perhaps finer level control or just fixed output--then I (and perhaps many more others) would give it a go without hesitation.

Perhaps EC Designs will find this feedback useful.  Everyone wants to experience their best/most current DAC performance, but not everyone (maybe rather few) are going to give up their present power amp/speaker set up.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

The powerDAC S can indeed only be used with speakers.

 

The difference in quality I reported with respect to the R-model is probably linked to the  lower distortion offered by the S model  over traditional amplifiers. I'm not sure the DAC section itself is significantly improved (there are some differences - increased Fractal bits, as mentioned previously). 

 

As I mentioned, others will have to confirm all this  by comparing the S-model with high quality amplifiers.

 

However, even without direct comparisons, I suspect anyone who has been in this hobby for a while and has experience listening to good quality systems will immediately be struck by the sound quality of the S-model (as this dealer was when I took it to his auditorium). 

 

I am also curious to see how many will be willing to make the jump and try it out.

 

 

[yogibear]

I was told if you play S1 at volume 9 it outputs as max volume setting of Power DAC R and hence can be connected to an external amplifier. 
 

This could turn out interesting to compare between R and S1 with the same amplifier AND the S1 itself with amplifier. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Another friend dropped by today to listen to the powerDAC S1 (with my Davis Courbet speakers, rated 9db between 4-8 ohms, around 6 IMO). He is familiar with my system and had heard it recently with the PowerDAC-R. We spend roughly 2 and à half hours listening to music this afternoon. 

 

Here are his comments, translated from French with minor editing:

 

"I found the listening very rich in tone and devoid of the slightest distortion, giving more realism and a clear gain in nuances. On the other hand in this configuration the dynamics seemed to me to be contained, the music lacking a little rhythm and remaining centered between the two speakers. The switch to the previous configuration (powerDAC-R plus ECD amplifiers), gave a boost in dynamics and a much larger stage even at identical sound volume. The musical message, on the other hand, is more messy. These two elements [dynamics, sound stage] are surely inherent to the modest power of the amp. So let's wait for a more muscular version, to win on both counts ..."

 

We did not volume match the two configurations, but I think at this point it is pretty clear that an increase in power will be beneficial. I am looking forward to a v2 of the S model to confirm this.  I am going to hold off on further tests until then as I feel I would have to repeat them after anyway. 

 

[fas42]

Interesting comments by your friend ... of course, a solution is possible where lack of distortion, dynamics and fully realised soundstage coexist. Does the S1 change character as the volume is raised to more realistic sound levels, in the sense that the dynamics start being lost at a certain average sound intensity? This would be a very clear indication that more power would be beneficial - OTOH, if, say, the staging and rhythm remains the same as the volume is decreased closer to background levels, then something else may need to be looked at ...

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

These aspects can also be speaker dependant. Some speakers may require a certain volume level to "open up". With the Audio Note speakers I did not have any complaints (and neither did the dealer who seemed to find the sound very engaging). Yesterday, we did not match the volumes

when we briefly went back to the powerDAC-R. Though it sounded like the volume was close, small changes can be important. I may try again volume matching precisely the two configurations with a fixed tone track. 

 

The impressions were not the same on all tracks either, and the recording level seemed to be a factor (with softer recordings struggling more). I will certainly make more comparisons with friends after ECD updates my unit. 

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

This afternoon I spend some time listening to my system again, with the powerDAC-S1, and compared it this time with the powerDAC-R hooked up to a Lavardin ISX amplifier. The difference is similar to what we found yesterday when using the powerDAC-R with ECD amplifiers, and it is really striking. The issue of volume/dynamics remains but is really secondary at this point, and I am sure ECD are going to improve this in the next version they are working on now.

 

When I return my unit to get it updated, I am really going to miss it, and I do not think I could ever go back to traditional amplifiers. This "undistorted" sound is really a game changer in my opinon. 

 

It got me thinking about Arthur Salvatore's "level of audible improvements", which he recently updated (http://www.high-endaudio.com/philos.html#Levels) to go from 6 to 7 levels. I always recommend people to think in terms of these levels when they evaluate changes to their system. 

 

The powerDAC-S1 definitely deserves a level 6, and perhaps even a level 7. 

 

Level 4 and below can be ruled out, as I believe ALL audiophiles would agree (if they could all listen to it) that the improvement is significant, and can be heard all the time. So far the few people who have listened to it extensively (more than 10 minutes, 3 of us) seem to agree about this.

 

Level 5 is pretty much a given as I believe ordinary listeners as well would be struck by the difference (I'll ask my girlfriend!). The difference between level 5 and level 6 or 7 is that level 5 is not "dramatic". To my ears, it is clearly a dramatic improvement, and my friends agreed that they thought this was a more significant upgrade than any thing else I have done in my system before. Now of course, were I to buy a 100.000€ speaker it could offer a more dramatic improvement to my system but that's not a fair comparison... I believe that the powerDAC-S1 would offer similar dramatic improvements to others' systems.

 

It is hard to choose between level 6 and level 7.  In both cases, the reactions described by Salvatore are over the top :) It is very clear at this point that the powerDAC-S1 is not something I would want to be without - as an audiophile (though obviously this is all relative...). It is also pretty clear that this new system changes my perspective on digital audio. So I think a level 7 is well deserved. 👍

 

---

 

Level 1- The sonic improvement can be subtly, though still consistently, observed when switching to the superior component (A/B). However, the reverse matching deterioration is not heard consistently when switching back (B/A) to the inferior component. (This Level is most commonly experienced with signal cable comparisons.)

Example- Aural Thrills I.C. with Coincident Power Cable Vs. Aural Thrills I.C. with generic power cable

Typical Verbal Reaction: "I believe the improvement exists, but I wouldn't bet my life on it."

 

Level 2 - The sonic improvement can now be heard when both switching A/B and also again when switching back (B/A), but it is no longer specifically heard after a short period of time; sometimes seconds, but almost always less than one minute. This Level almost always requires an active effort, on the part of the listener, to observe the improvement. It is also highly unlikely an "ordinary listener" can ever hear this level of improvement (let alone Level 1).

Example- "The Truth" T4 Transformer Input Vs. "The Truth" T4 Direct Input)

Typical Verbal Reaction: "It definitely exists, but it is still subtle."

 

Level 3 - The sonic improvement can be consistently heard at length, though an effort may still be required, at times, to listen specifically for it, so it is not always "obvious" or inescapable. Only gifted "ordinary listeners" can observe this level of improvement. This improvement is still not significant; meaning it is possible that an audiophile will be able to remove this improvement from their system and still not suffer from its absence.

Example- "The Truth" T3 Line Stage Vs. "The Truth" T1 Line Stage

Typical Verbal Reaction: "It's mainly a nice improvement, but it's still not significant."

 

Level 4 - The sonic improvement can be heard by any serious audiophile all the time, and without any effort. It is now also easily possible, if not even probable, for "ordinary listeners", meaning those people with no interest in sound quality, to observe this improvement. This level of improvement may or may not be "significant", depending on the priorities and the listening ability of the listener. However, regardless of their personal priorities, almost all audiophiles will now suffer if this level of improvement is removed from their system.

Example- Acapella TW 1S Ion Super Tweeters

Typical Verbal Reactions: Audiophile 1: "What I hear is a significant improvement for me." ///Audiophile 2: "I hear exactly what you hear, but it's not a significant improvement for me."

 

Level 5 - The sonic improvement is now so obvious that it is literally impossible to ignore, even by "ordinary listeners". This improvement is now universally "significant", without qualifications; so all serious audiophiles will suffer from its absence. However, this improvement has still not quite reached the important and rare level of being "dramatic" in nature.

Example- ZYX UNIverse II Vs. "Original" ZYX UNIverse

Typical Verbal Reaction: "It's definitely a significant improvement, though I've heard a few improvements which were even larger."

 

Level 6 - This level of sonic improvement is now much more than simply "significant" and/or "obvious", it is now "dramatic" in scale and effect as well. A serious audiophile lives to experience this level of improvement. Thus, it would be absolutely unthinkable for any serious audiophile to live without this improvement. This level of improvement is not uncommon during the early years of an audiophile's life, but it also become increasingly rare as they gain greater experience with a wider variety of components and systems. (Any audio reviewers, and especially those with considerable experience, who claim they hear "dramatic" improvements, on a routine basis, are not credible.)

Example- Coincident Pure Reference Extreme Mk. II Vs. "Original" Pure Reference Extreme

Typical Verbal Reactions: "Wow! Jaw-dropping! I'm blown away! I can't live without it!"

 

Level 7 - The sonic improvement is "transformational"; meaning not only would it be completely impossible to live without it, but the improvement actually alters an audiophile's thinking and perspective on both their particular system and "Audio" in general. This is the rarest level of improvement, only experienced a few times in an audiophile's life. It is the unending desire, and quest, to repeat this intense experience which makes a person an Audiophile. "The stuff that dreams are made of."

Example- Reference Lenco L-75 Turntable/Graham Phantom (Supreme) Tonearm Vs. Forsell Air Reference Turntable/Tonearm

Typical Verbal Reactions: "I'm in shock! After hearing this, I'll never be the same again. I didn't even think this was possible!"