ECdesigns

[Norton]

21 hours ago, hopkins said:

My goal is ultimately to upgrade my speakers and in doing so selecting a slightly more sensitive model

If you can audition Klipsch Heresy, Forte or Cornwalls in their latest MKIV forms, I’d really recommend it.  I love my Cornwall MKIIIs, but I understand the latest generation are a big upgrade.  I’d probably go with the Fortes myself if buying again as the  Cornwalls are a big speaker.  

[Huubster]

10 hours ago, hopkins said:

In comparison - I never thought I would say this - the powerDAC R and amplifiers sound coarse...

 

I know the feeling. I heard the PD-S in it's prototype form when I personally picked up the PD-R. 

 

First I was listening to the PD-R connected to John's newly made mono tube amps, powering his open baffle speakers. Though I'm not a fan of his open baffle speakers, the impact was as you say 'striking'..

 

I don't know how good or bad the tube amps he used are though, so for me it was hard to know the impact of the S model on itself. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

36 minutes ago, Huubster said:

 

I know the feeling. I heard the PD-S in it's prototype form when I personally picked up the PD-R. 

 

First I was listening to the PD-R connected to John's newly made mono tube amps, powering his open baffle speakers. Though I'm not a fan of his open baffle speakers, the impact was as you say 'striking'..

 

I don't know how good or bad the tube amps he used are though, so for me it was hard to know the impact of the S model on itself. 

 

I understand the tube amps were designed at a stage in which the S models were not giving satisfactory results yet. John has made a lot of adjustments as the increase in Fractal bits, board size, power, etc...from the R model created additional challenges. Also he mentioned some new aspects. 

 

Here is a technical description he send me, for those interested. I assume it is OK to share it. 

 

 

"The PowerDAC-S can drive -any- load impedance from dead short to infinity and speaker impedance dips & peaks are no problem either. Speakers can be hot swapped regardless of output signal level. The PowerDAC-S1 output power is constant, so it cannot be overloaded. Because there are no active linear circuits and no feedback loops it cannot become unstable (short circuited output or no load connected).

 

The steering method is different from conventional audio systems, the PowerDAC-S1 offers quasi constant power steering and it combines the best properties of constant voltage steering (semiconductor amps) and quasi constant current steering (tube amps). The steering method is based on power division. Constant amount of power is divided between PowerDAC and speaker, the louder the signal, the more idle power is diverted to the speaker, at digital silence the PowerDAC gets all power and the speaker gets no power. The amount of power drawn from the mains remains constant, regardless of the output signal. One -could- compare this with a pure class-A amplifier where the entire output signal is generated from the bias current.

 

Unlike amplifiers, the PowerDAC does not amplify any noise and it cannot clip. At maximum volume, distortion remains 0.0005% at the speaker terminals and the output signal does not clip (not even 1 LSB). So you have the unusual situation that there is no distortion increase from the PowerDAC-S1 at full volume setting. This also means there is no compression regardless of volume setting. The speakers are also unlikely to distort much at these low power levels of 3W max. The membrane movement of the speakers is very low (sometimes no movement is visible at all). this translates to low distortion (the larger the cone movement, the higher te speaker related distortion). This is why it makes sense to use lowest practical output power and use sensitive speakers.

 

The speaker is connected to a Wheatstone (H-bridge) configuration. DAC on one branch, speaker reference on the other branch. This way power supply noise is equal on both, speaker plus and speaker minus terminals. This cancels power supply noise and even large power supply ripple should remain inaudible this way. Wheatstone bridge configuration helps to maintain extreme accuracy at lowest signal levels using high current logic and related power supply pollution.

... 

Because of this supply noise cancelling method, the PowerDAC-S1 offers a ghostly silent background, this is essential for hearing the smallest details.

 

Bandwidth: theoretically 100 MHz (based on switching speed), but practically limited by wiring and other factors. Unlike amplifiers there is no band limiting present as there are no feedback loops & phase margin issues.

This unique property translates to zero phase errors within the audio and ultrasonic spectrum and zero degrading related to feedback loops, thermal memory and other typical degrading related to analogue circuits.

 

Distortion: < 0.0005% (0dB) at the speaker terminals. Noise floor typically below -140dB at the speaker terminals (degraded by speaker wiring and speaker internal wiring and crossover parts picking up noise).

Resolution: better than 50uV at the speaker terminals"

[yogibear]

When is S2 slated to be introduced and will it be upgrade only wrt power output Or would be significant upgrade in other DAC aspects too ? I mean over S1.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

48 minutes ago, yogibear said:

When is S2 slated to be introduced and will it be upgrade only wrt power output Or would be significant upgrade in other DAC aspects too ? I mean over S1.

 

Sorry I have no idea. Maybe send them an email? 

[tapatrick]

3 hours ago, hopkins said:

Unlike amplifiers, the PowerDAC does not amplify any noise and it cannot clip. At maximum volume, distortion remains 0.0005% at the speaker terminals and the output signal does not clip (not even 1 LSB). So you have the unusual situation that there is no distortion increase from the PowerDAC-S1 at full volume setting. This also means there is no compression regardless of volume setting. ....

Resolution: better than 50uV at the speaker terminals"

This is exciting stuff!

[Bram1103]

I have visit EC Design a couple of weeks ago.

 

I have heard the the Powerdac R and the Powerdac S.

 

Set 1 was the Powerdac S1 with the open baffle speaker from EC design

 

Set 2 was the Powerdac R with the tube amplifiers and the open baffles from EC Design.

 

For me, set 2 was the best sounding. More body and more musical.

[tapatrick]

15 minutes ago, Bram1103 said:

Set 2 was the Powerdac R with the tube amplifiers and the open baffles from EC Design.

For me, set 2 was the best sounding. More body and more musical.

Thanks that's interesting - no doubt the tube amps give body to the sound.. as I find with my set up.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

25 minutes ago, Bram1103 said:

I have visit EC Design a couple of weeks ago.

 

I have heard the the Powerdac R and the Powerdac S.

 

Set 1 was the Powerdac S1 with the open baffle speaker from EC design

 

Set 2 was the Powerdac R with the tube amplifiers and the open baffles from EC Design.

 

For me, set 2 was the best sounding. More body and more musical.

 

Was it not a couple months ago ? Early September ECD told me: 

"We had some issues with the S models where the initial proto model S sounded much better than the new S1.

This became apparent when guest came to listen to the S1 and R+tube amp.

The S1 was really missing something, it sounded rather dull and slow."

 

This is what I was mentioning to Huubster: the S1 took a while to fine-tune...

 

[yogibear]

23 minutes ago, Bram1103 said:

I have visit EC Design a couple of weeks ago.

 

I have heard the the Powerdac R and the Powerdac S.

 

Set 1 was the Powerdac S1 with the open baffle speaker from EC design

 

Set 2 was the Powerdac R with the tube amplifiers and the open baffles from EC Design.

 

For me, set 2 was the best sounding. More body and more musical.

 

I have recently managed to build SE Tube amps based on F2a tube. The amps is driven directly from Power DAC R. I am baffled at body and relaxed music coming from just single full range drivers on large Open Baffles.

 

I am personally more keen on S2 with 6 watts power and it will very interesting to compare between the two. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

@tapatrick @yogibear  I really think there is a small error here in @Bram1103's timeline - don't jump to conclusions about tube amps. If they chose not to pursue the tube amplifier option it is because they managed to perfect the S1 to outperform the tube amp !

 

However much you may like the sound of tube amps, wait until you can hear the S1 (or S2)...

[tapatrick]

44 minutes ago, yogibear said:

 

I have recently managed to build SE Tube amps based on F2a tube. The amps is driven directly from Power DAC R. I am baffled at body and relaxed music coming from just single full range drivers on large Open Baffles.

 

I am personally more keen on S2 with 6 watts power and it will very interesting to compare between the two. 

For me the big question is if the S1 and/or S2 can best my (fractal DAC) SE tube amp and single driver full range set up. If so I will be seriously impressed.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

38 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

For me the big question is if the S1 and/or S2 can best my (fractal DAC) SE tube amp and single driver full range set up. If so I will be seriously impressed.

 

Do you plan on ordering the S1 or S2 to find out ? 

[tapatrick]

10 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Do you plan on ordering the S1 or S2 to find out ? 

That depends on upcoming reviews which I will be keeping my eye on. I am probably going to go for the higher powered version ie S2 for various reasons, but again depends on any SQ difference with S1. Lots of variables to consider that I intend to follow up with John about..

[Huubster]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

 

Was it not a couple months ago ? Early September ECD told me: 

"We had some issues with the S models where the initial proto model S sounded much better than the new S1.

This became apparent when guest came to listen to the S1 and R+tube amp.

The S1 was really missing something, it sounded rather dull and slow."

 

This is what I was mentioning to Huubster: the S1 took a while to fine-tune...

 

 

As far as I know I listened to the prototype model S, and not the S1, is that what you mean Hopkins? Because my experience was the complete opposite to Bram1103.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

7 minutes ago, Huubster said:

 

As far as I know I listened to the prototype model S, and not the S1, is that what you mean Hopkins? Because my experience was the complete opposite to Bram1103.

 

Bram1103 mentioned in this thread the audition at the end of August - which is consistent with what they told me early September.  You went to see them in June, from what I remember ? So yes, that was probably a first prototype, but there probably have been a few, I did not keep track of all the saga ! Also, whatever it was you listened to back then there is no way of knowing how it compares to the production model they are selling now. As I mentioned, I think there have been a lot of adjustments along the way.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

28 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

That depends on upcoming reviews which I will be keeping my eye on. I am probably going to go for the higher powered version ie S2 for various reasons, but again depends on any SQ difference with S1. Lots of variables to consider that I intend to follow up with John about..

 

I am curious to find out how many they are going to produce, sell, and how many people are going to be writing about this product.

 

I would assume it would attract attention, but that was my assumption also about the R Model, and it went relatively unnoticed (aside for this forum). There is not a single other forum that has discussed it (aside for a thread mocking it on SuperBestAudioFriends), no professional reviewer seems to know of ECD aside for Hi-Fi Advice, and he's mentioned he will not be reviewing their products. I would be curious to know how many R models they have sold and if there is a "silent" community of users out there :)

 

The S model is even more of a "game changer", in my opinion, than the R model - even though the S model simply builds upon the solutions implemented in the R model. 

 

On a side note, I forgot to mention that I did listen to the R model at someone's house recently hooked up to tube power amplifiers (well respected hi-end French brand - Halgorythme). We did not listen to it in that configuration for a long time, and it is hard to compare from memory across different systems/configurations (the speakers were Audio Note), but I can say with certainty that it was not a "wow" moment, and the sound quality was not "striking" as it was as soon as I plugged in the S1 on my speakers. So I am making a lot of assumptions here, but my guess would be, at this early stage, that the S1 is really setting the bar very high !

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

35 minutes ago, Huubster said:

 

As far as I know I listened to the prototype model S, and not the S1, is that what you mean Hopkins? Because my experience was the complete opposite to Bram1103.

 

As John is developing a new open baffle setup - quite different from the one you heard -  my suggestion would be to give him a call and drop by at some point to listen to the S1, if you can and he agrees to it. I would do the same if I were living in Amsterdam !

 

From what they have told me, they intend on offering (selling ? I have no idea) the specifications of their new open baffle speakers for DIY builds. John's goal is to design something that will complement the S1 by offering minimal distortion. Currently he is experimenting with 4 12 inch full range speakers on each open baffle, with minimal filters, and he seems to be quite enthusiastic about it. Things are always interesting when it comes to ECD !

 

You could also put some other speakers in your car and ask him to test them with the S1...

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Currently he is experimenting with 4 12 inch full range speakers on each open baffle

 

 

Correction: 8 inch not 12. 

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

I would do the same if I were living in Amsterdam !

..Currently he is experimenting with 4 12 inch full range speakers on each open baffle, with minimal filters, and he seems to be ..Things are always interesting when it comes to ECD !

It's possible I might be in Holland in the next few months so I am thinking to pay EC a visit to get a fuller picture. They are not like most other companies who want to sell a lot of units. They seem more like prototype developers hot on the trail of the holy grail! As they don't seem to cultivate much publicity and keep putting out new products I can understand why there is not more interest, but still I had thought here on AS (the home of audio holy grail seekers) there would be more interest.

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

..I did listen to the R model at someone's house recently hooked up to tube power amplifiers (well respected hi-end French brand - Halgorythme). We did not listen to it in that configuration for a long time, and it is hard to compare from memory across different systems/configurations (the speakers were Audio Note), but I can say with certainty that it was not a "wow" moment, and the sound quality was not "striking" as it was as soon as I plugged in the S1 on my speakers. So I am making a lot of assumptions here, but my guess would be, at this early stage, that the S1 is really setting the bar very high !

Curious if you are able to take the S1 and hook up to the same speakers if they are sensitive enough?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

13 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Curious if you are able to take the S1 and hook up to the same speakers if they are sensitive enough?

 

They are sensitive enough but I'm not sure I'll be going back there with the S1. I will certainly be trying some other speakers in the coming weeks and will report here as soon as I do. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

A friend came over this morning. He knows my system well, and has heard it with the R model. His impressions this morning are exactly the same as mine. The sound quality is so obvious that he did not feel the need to compare with the powerDAC-R + amplifiers. We simply enjoyed listening to music for two hours. 

 

Next test will be on Wednesday at a dealer's to hear another pair of speakers, with another friend who will be discovering the powerDAC S1 as well. Should be interesting. Will report back! 

 

[yogibear]

2 minutes ago, hopkins said:

A friend came over this morning. He knows my system well, and has heard it with the R model. His impressions this morning are exactly the same as mine. The sound quality is so obvious that he did not feel the need to compare with the powerDAC-R + amplifiers. We simply enjoyed listening to music for two hours. 

 

You mean on S1 this time ?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

19 minutes ago, yogibear said:

You mean on S1 this time ?

Yes, we listened to the S1 for two hours. Wednesday I will take the S1 to test other speakers.