Dire Need of Speaker Advice

[Gary.D.Olson]

OK......I'm a bit confused with all of your potential choices and the recommendations here. Probobly best looks at your placement options and listening distance before moving further. Speakers will ALWAYS be a function of the room and speakers together. This is where most make the most grave mistakes.

 

Care to share where you're placing them and how far away you intend to listen?

 

 

I'll build stands from white oak to suit the speakers. If necessary (and I assume it will be), I can include a cavity which can be filled with sand or anything heavy. The couch used for listening position is against the wall opposite of the drum kit, but can be moved forward as far as necessary. The space between these two walls is approximately 12.5 feet and the other two walls are about 13 feet apart. The walls are covered with carpet. As I see it, the space between me and the speakers should be 7-8 feet, but that can be adjusted, though obviously not by much.

[livelistenlearn]

I'll build stands from white oak to suit the speakers. If necessary (and I assume it will be), I can include a cavity which can be filled with sand or anything heavy. The couch used for listening position is against the wall opposite of the drum kit, but can be moved forward as far as necessary. The space between these two walls is approximately 12.5 feet and the other two walls are about 13 feet apart. The walls are covered with carpet. As I see it, the space between me and the speakers should be 7-8 feet, but that can be adjusted, though obviously not by much.

 

gary,

imo, you are all good with stand-mounts in this cosy, almost square room. carpeted walls absorb sound reflections = nice.

set-up:

1) speakers 2' out from the rear wall.

2) speakers 7’ apart, preferably centralised, leaving a space of 3’ from each sidewall.

3) couch 7' - 8’ away = just about right.

4) experiment with toe-in.

since you are DIY-ing the stands, getting tweeters firing at ear level should not be a problem. filling stand with sand/lead shot = good idea.

happy hunting for a pair of transducers that suit your taste.

[mayhem13]

I'll build stands from white oak to suit the speakers. If necessary (and I assume it will be), I can include a cavity which can be filled with sand or anything heavy. The couch used for listening position is against the wall opposite of the drum kit, but can be moved forward as far as necessary. The space between these two walls is approximately 12.5 feet and the other two walls are about 13 feet apart. The walls are covered with carpet. As I see it, the space between me and the speakers should be 7-8 feet, but that can be adjusted, though obviously not by much.

 

Thanks Gary. Given your room layout, best to keep the couch against the wall. You can't move it far enough to create diffusion of the first rear wall reflection or slap back so best to leave it as is.

 

Bookshelf Fullrange speakers will produce an excellent mid-hi reproduction and soundstage. Everything below 350hz or so will be a disaster from floor and ceiling bounce. Where these reflections meet at the listening position results in huge nulls and peaks relative to the frequency and distance. This has become one of the worst trends of design in commercial audio.

 

Given your budget and room, I'd certainly look for a pair of Magnepan 1.7's pre owned. You can set them off the rear wall sufficiently by adding some diffusion behind them with irregular hard surfaces. The Maggie's side energy cancels on either side so no worries there. The large dipolar bass panels won't result in massive in room peaks and nulls at the listening position but they don't extend terribly low either but the 1.7's do better than most.......and in this case much better than any 6-8" monopole boxed woofer in existence.

 

If you want stand mounted bookshelf speakers, consider a pair of active subwoofers below. Blows your budget unless you DIY the whole project.

[Jimmypowder]

Kef ls50 , particularly in you like female vocalists

[Gary.D.Olson]

Thanks Gary. Given your room layout, best to keep the couch against the wall. You can't move it far enough to create diffusion of the first rear wall reflection or slap back so best to leave it as is.

 

Bookshelf Fullrange speakers will produce an excellent mid-hi reproduction and soundstage. Everything below 350hz or so will be a disaster from floor and ceiling bounce. Where these reflections meet at the listening position results in huge nulls and peaks relative to the frequency and distance. This has become one of the worst trends of design in commercial audio.

 

Given your budget and room, I'd certainly look for a pair of Magnepan 1.7's pre owned. You can set them off the rear wall sufficiently by adding some diffusion behind them with irregular hard surfaces. The Maggie's side energy cancels on either side so no worries there. The large dipolar bass panels won't result in massive in room peaks and nulls at the listening position but they don't extend terribly low either but the 1.7's do better than most.......and in this case much better than any 6-8" monopole boxed woofer in existence.

 

If you want stand mounted bookshelf speakers, consider a pair of active subwoofers below. Blows your budget unless you DIY the whole project.

 

 

The only two speakers I black-listed are the only two you recommend.

 

Seriously, I'll consider the 1.7's. They do weigh over 45 pounds each, which wouldn't be too bad if they were bar bells... What do you think about the MMG's with a sub or two? I have an active 10" Polk sw and could buy another if needed (I also have two amazing Velodyne 12" active's but there's not enough space for those puppies).

[Gary.D.Olson]

Thanks Gary. Given your room layout, best to keep the couch against the wall. You can't move it far enough to create diffusion of the first rear wall reflection or slap back so best to leave it as is.

 

Bookshelf Fullrange speakers will produce an excellent mid-hi reproduction and soundstage. Everything below 350hz or so will be a disaster from floor and ceiling bounce. Where these reflections meet at the listening position results in huge nulls and peaks relative to the frequency and distance. This has become one of the worst trends of design in commercial audio.

 

Given your budget and room, I'd certainly look for a pair of Magnepan 1.7's pre owned. You can set them off the rear wall sufficiently by adding some diffusion behind them with irregular hard surfaces. The Maggie's side energy cancels on either side so no worries there. The large dipolar bass panels won't result in massive in room peaks and nulls at the listening position but they don't extend terribly low either but the 1.7's do better than most.......and in this case much better than any 6-8" monopole boxed woofer in existence.

 

If you want stand mounted bookshelf speakers, consider a pair of active subwoofers below. Blows your budget unless you DIY the whole project.

 

 

There's a pair of MG12's for sale 10 miles away. The guy is asking $580. He says he just upgraded to an older but larger pair of maggies, and that his MG12's are barely broken in and like new. Hmm.

[Paul R]

There's a pair of MG12's for sale 10 miles away. The guy is asking $580. He says he just upgraded to an older but larger pair of maggies, and that his MG12's are barely broken in and like new. Hmm.

 

Damn! That's a deal, grab em! If you find you don't want em, and they have boxes to ship in, I'll buy em back off you.

 

By the way, there is a simple little trick you can do to make much better stands for them, which will increase their sound potential even more. About $20 at Lowes and less than an hour of time.

 

-Paul

[flatmap]

I like Magneplanars, but I do wonder about using any but the smallest versions in a room this size.

 

I've spent years trying to make floor standing speakers work in my room (almost the same size/dimensions) and have only gotten good results with monitors. YMMV, of course.

[Gary.D.Olson]

Damn! That's a deal, grab em! If you find you don't want em, and they have boxes to ship in, I'll buy em back off you.

 

By the way, there is a simple little trick you can do to make much better stands for them, which will increase their sound potential even more. About $20 at Lowes and less than an hour of time.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul,

 

I would be very interested to hear more about the stands. Maybe they would solve my biggest problem with Maggies. They've always been out of the question for two reasons: Nunu & Jojo. The depth of mercilessness and blatant disregard of property from these two hellish cats is virtually boundlesss. The more valueable and cherished the possession; the more "attention" it gets. Jojo & Nunu have but a single mission: destroy all that is holy. Alas, my wife loves them. If you have any ideas that might possibly fly with my wife, I'd love to hear them.

 

To your comment about buying them back from me if I decide against them, say the word.

 

If you seriously want them, and assuming they're sonically & cosmetically in excellent condition with the boxes, I'll meet with the seller, give them an audition to confirm they sound good, and buy them. Once home, I'll audition them more extensively. If they don't work out for me, I can ship them to you. This scenario actually offers big advantages for me because of the in-home audition I won't get with any other speaker. Let me know your thoughts about how you would want to handle this?

 

 

Gary

[mayhem13]

Gary......cats and Maggie's are a BAD mix my friend. You must ABSOLUTELY keep them away from the speakers as they'll shred them in no time.

 

MG-12's are really nice.

[beanbag]

If I were u, I would get a set of Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, which are available from Best Buy, but can be had cheaper elsewhere. Then spend less on an amp, but make sure it can do 4 ohms, or stick with your current one. Since your walls are carpeted, you may not need them, but I might still get a set of acoustic panels and put them on the wall behind the speakers.

 

Most likely, they won't be set up well at Best Buy, and will sound bad, but once set up properly in your room they will sound a lot better.

 

I know your room is kinda small, but still...

 

And they only weigh 35 lbs each

[Gary.D.Olson]

If I were u, I would get a set of Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, which are available from Best Buy, but can be had cheaper elsewhere. Then spend less on an amp, but make sure it can do 4 ohms, or stick with your current one. Since your walls are carpeted, you may not need them, but I might still get a set of acoustic panels and put them on the wall behind the speakers.

 

Most likely, they won't be set up well at Best Buy, and will sound bad, but once set up properly in your room they will sound a lot better.

 

I know your room is kinda small, but still...

 

And they only weigh 35 lbs each

 

 

The Martin Logan's look great for the job but they're priced between $1000-$1500 EACH.

[Gary.D.Olson]

Gary......cats and Maggie's are a BAD mix my friend. You must ABSOLUTELY keep them away from the speakers as they'll shred them in no time.

 

MG-12's are really nice.

 

 

Do cats destroy the panel or just the sock? Assuming the latter, and if I could find reasonably priced sonically transparent material, I could use "throw away" socks; at least until the behavior of our cats is reprogrammed by a custom made electrified perimeter:)

[Paul R]

Paul,

 

I would be very interested to hear more about the stands. Maybe they would solve my biggest problem with Maggies. They've always been out of the question for two reasons: Nunu & Jojo. The depth of mercilessness and blatant disregard of property from these two hellish cats is virtually boundlesss. The more valueable and cherished the possession; the more "attention" it gets. Jojo & Nunu have but a single mission: destroy all that is holy. Alas, my wife loves them. If you have any ideas that might possibly fly with my wife, I'd love to hear them.

 

To your comment about buying them back from me if I decide against them, say the word.

 

If you seriously want them, and assuming they're sonically & cosmetically in excellent condition with the boxes, I'll meet with the seller, give them an audition to confirm they sound good, and buy them. Once home, I'll audition them more extensively. If they don't work out for me, I can ship them to you. This scenario actually offers big advantages for me because of the in-home audition I won't get with any other speaker. Let me know your thoughts about how you would want to handle this?

 

 

Gary

 

You bet- they would be the perfect upgrade for a set of MMGs I have here. Small enough the wife won't object and just a tad better than the MMGs. But I bet once you hear 'em you won't let em go. Oh, you do need to play them about 200 hours if they have been idle, before the full sound comes out and the bass fully developes. Also, check the age, if they are much more than 3years old,nyou might want to take a pass on em and try a set of MMGs. You order thise factory direct, and they come with a 60 or 90 day no questions asked money back guarantee. Or you can apply their price to an upgrade.

 

We have two furry engines of feline terror here, so I know where you are coming from. They frequently tease the old dawg, who then puts on a speed demonstration catching and ruffling the two terrors up. They have all learned to avoid the speakers - all the speakers in the house. (grin)

 

The addition of a scratching post liberraly doused in catnip, a few cat treats, and lots of praise, combined with a few well earned shots from a squirt gun seems to have permantly done the trick. Neither of the two cats bother with the speakers anymore. Well, the Mau might threaten to if she is feeling snack deprived. She stands near a speaker with a paw in the air, head turned looking at one of us...

 

We have a 14lb Egyptian Mau who believes she is the boss, till the 6lb Himalayan gets riled and asserts herself by ambushing and mauling the Mau. Then they gang up on the 15 year old dog, who can still roll both of em up in a ball. Sounds rough, but it really isn't - none of them ever really use claws or teeth on each other, and it isn't uncommon to find them all sleeping cuddled to each other. Embarasses the cats to no end when you catch em. The UPS guy knows the cats are the real danger though, he oets the dig but is quite leary of the cats.

[Gary.D.Olson]

You bet- they would be the perfect upgrade for a set of MMGs I have here. Small enough the wife won't object and just a tad better than the MMGs. But I bet once you hear 'em you won't let em go. Oh, you do need to play them about 200 hours if they have been idle, before the full sound comes out and the bass fully developes. Also, check the age, if they are much more than 3years old,nyou might want to take a pass on em and try a set of MMGs. You order thise factory direct, and they come with a 60 or 90 day no questions asked money back guarantee. Or you can apply their price to an upgrade.

 

We have two furry engines of feline terror here, so I know where you are coming from. They frequently tease the old dawg, who then puts on a speed demonstration catching and ruffling the two terrors up. They have all learned to avoid the speakers - all the speakers in the house. (grin)

 

The addition of a scratching post liberraly doused in catnip, a few cat treats, and lots of praise, combined with a few well earned shots from a squirt gun seems to have permantly done the trick. Neither of the two cats bother with the speakers anymore. Well, the Mau might threaten to if she is feeling snack deprived. She stands near a speaker with a paw in the air, head turned looking at one of us...

 

We have a 14lb Egyptian Mau who believes she is the boss, till the 6lb Himalayan gets riled and asserts herself by ambushing and mauling the Mau. Then they gang up on the 15 year old dog, who can still roll both of em up in a ball. Sounds rough, but it really isn't - none of them ever really use claws or teeth on each other, and it isn't uncommon to find them all sleeping cuddled to each other. Embarasses the cats to no end when you catch em. The UPS guy knows the cats are the real danger though, he oets the dig but is quite leary of the cats.

 

 

Paul,

 

The seller hasn't responded to the inquiry sent two days ago via email (no phone# listed), though the ad is still there. Either he sold them, is away for Christmas, or prefers buyers who offer to meet him at Starbuck's. I asked if I could bring an amplifier for the demo "...with you manning the volume knob?" I listed the amplification I was considering pairing with the Maggies (Luxman R-117 receiver, Marantz 2330B receiver, or Yamaha C70/M70 Pre amp/Power amp), and offered to allow him to choose which of the three to bring. Crickets. I'll let you know if I hear from him.

 

Merry Christmas!

 

 

Gary

[wwaldmanfan]

Paul,

 

The seller hasn't responded to the inquiry sent two days ago via email (no phone# listed), though the ad is still there. Either he sold them, is away for Christmas, or prefers buyers who offer to meet him at Starbuck's. I asked if I could bring an amplifier for the demo "...with you manning the volume knob?" I listed the amplification I was considering pairing with the Maggies (Luxman R-117 receiver, Marantz 2330B receiver, or Yamaha C70/M70 Pre amp/Power amp), and offered to allow him to choose which of the three to bring. Crickets. I'll let you know if I hear from him.

 

Merry Christmas!

 

 

Gary

 

I have no personal experience with these speakers, so I am not trying to dissuade you, however, FWIW, I stumbled on this anonymous comment from "Jim" on AudioReview.com:

 

"...purchased 1.6′s in 2001. In 2006 voice coils came unglued from the speaker causing fuzzy sound. Called Magnepan and they said this sometime occurs every few years and that cost of the repair would be approximately $407+ dollars, including shipping. Being upset, I declined and bought another brand. Very good speakers, but not the value others seem to think if this happens often. Was terribly displeased with what happened, especially since I yearned and saved for them for so long and owned them for only a short time. Did not want to keep them for this to happen again in another five years after the repair."

 

That said, my AR-2a's lasted 50 years before one of the crossovers gave out, my ADS L620's still work well after over 30 years, and my B&W's, purchased 14 years ago, probably haven't even shown what they are capable of, based on the rest of my modest system. Most speakers last a very long time, and they are one of the components I collect because they have more aesthetic appeal to me than a metal box of electronics, so I would always question why someone is selling. Nothing wrong with upgrade-itis, though ;>)

Happy Holidays, and good luck with the speakers.

[beanbag]

yeah, the Martin Logan price went up a bit since I last looked. But I think you can still get the non-shiny black version for 1K each at Best Buy. Or maybe a non-best buy store will give you a deal. Then spend less or none on the amp. Because the speakers are more important per dollar.

 

At least ML speakers won't have the 350 Hz floor bounce that mayhem talks about.

 

If your room is sufficiently small, Maggie also has a little desktop system for 1.5K.

 

I called a dealer, and the guy said that the MMG's are "not nearly as good" as the regular 1.7's etc. Maybe he was just mad that Maggie sells them direct and not thru him.

[Paul R]

yeah, the Martin Logan price went up a bit since I last looked. But I think you can still get the non-shiny black version for 1K each at Best Buy. Or maybe a non-best buy store will give you a deal. Then spend less or none on the amp. Because the speakers are more important per dollar.

 

At least ML speakers won't have the 350 Hz floor bounce that mayhem talks about.

 

If your room is sufficiently small, Maggie also has a little desktop system for 1.5K.

 

I called a dealer, and the guy said that the MMG's are "not nearly as good" as the regular 1.7's etc. Maybe he was just mad that Maggie sells them direct and not thru him.

 

No, he is correct. The MMGs are not as good as the 1.7s, which are not as good as the 3.7s, which are not as good as the 20.7s. All if them have a different sound than the ES Martin Logans, it is preference which one likes better.

 

A set of MMGs still sounds better to me than any other $600 speakers on the market. Add in a woofer module and the MMGs can start to rival the 1.7s.

 

The room would be a little tight with couch, drumset, and a set of 1.7s.

[timind]

As someone who owned the Maggie 12QRs I would hesitate to use them in a room with your dimensions unless you could set them up in a diagonal configuration. I had the Sound Anchor stands with mine but actually preferred the sound with the standard feet. If the seller does respond do go listen to them. And don't just listen seated. Get up and walk around them as they have a very unique character when not in the sweet spot; more than any other speaker I've oowned.

If you are still considering the Dynaudios speakers I would suggest the Focus 110. I owned a pair and had them set up in a room that was 11.5 x 13 x 8 and they had no problem at all filling the room. I know you said active are out but a pair of the Focus 110A (active model) might pair nicely with the Yamaha preamp. Here's a link to an AudioGon ad (I have no interest in this sale) DYNAUDIO FOCUS 110A POWERED MONITORS - ROSEWOOD EXCELLENT DEMO - WARRANTY | Monitors | Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Hope the link works.

[Gary.D.Olson]

As someone who owned the Maggie 12QRs I would hesitate to use them in a room with your dimensions unless you could set them up in a diagonal configuration. I had the Sound Anchor stands with mine but actually preferred the sound with the standard feet. If the seller does respond do go listen to them. And don't just listen seated. Get up and walk around them as they have a very unique character when not in the sweet spot; more than any other speaker I've oowned.

If you are still considering the Dynaudios speakers I would suggest the Focus 110. I owned a pair and had them set up in a room that was 11.5 x 13 x 8 and they had no problem at all filling the room. I know you said active are out but a pair of the Focus 110A (active model) might pair nicely with the Yamaha preamp. Here's a link to an AudioGon ad (I have no interest in this sale) DYNAUDIO FOCUS 110A POWERED MONITORS - ROSEWOOD EXCELLENT DEMO - WARRANTY | Monitors | Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Hope the link works.

 

 

Sold, but beautiful speakers. I'll look into that model.

 

Thanks.

[chaosrealm93]

See if you can audition a pair of PSB Imagine B bookshelfs. I think they're pretty good

 

Personally I'm not too fond of the klipsch and polk sound. I've heard their RB 61s cant came away thinking they were too bright. The polks on the other hand sounded a bit muddled and lacking detail.

 

Happy shopping!

[Paul R]

See if you can audition a pair of PSB Imagine B bookshelfs. I think they're pretty good

 

Personally I'm not too fond of the klipsch and polk sound. I've heard their RB 61s cant came away thinking they were too bright. The polks on the other hand sounded a bit muddled and lacking detail.

 

Happy shopping!

 

+1- those are great little speakers. The cherry ones are awesomely beautiful too.

[Tone Deaf]

Like me, I see you keep the same components pretty much forever. I had a pair of the first Harbeths originally manufactured in the US as my primary speaker for over 25 years before finally upgrading. I still have the Harbeths and the original Sansui I used in my workout room.

 

With your small room, my vote would be for the LS50. Yes, they are pricey, but they are also a good value at that price. I have the KEF Reference 201/2 and in my opinion, the LS50 gives about 95% of the performance for 1/4 the price of the 201/2. Should you eventually choose to upgrade your system further, the LS50 would be a great foundation for those upgrades. They sound surprisingly big for their size, and set up well within a room, they completely disappear.

 

Caveats. The LS50s are not the easiest speaker to drive well. My guess is they would sound quite good with your amps, but a stronger 4 ohm rated amp would likely give you better results with them. A second consideration is upgraditus. The really are as good as your upstream components allow them to be, and if you purchase the LS50s, you could find yourself wanting to upgrade more than you were initially anticipating.

 

Good luck with the search. Happy listening.

 

Paul

[Skeptic]

If you are looking at smaller monitors and are willing to spend $1500 on the speakers, and $1000 on amplification, have you considered the Genelec 8330A kit?

 

They should be priced under $2500, don't require a separate DAC/Amp, and have room correction built in.

[Gary.D.Olson]

If you are looking at smaller monitors and are willing to spend $1500 on the speakers, and $1000 on amplification, have you considered the Genelec 8330A kit?

 

They should be priced under $2500, don't require a separate DAC/Amp, and have room correction built in.

 

 

After creating a detailed list of necessities (including mother-in-law's household), I've decided to cap the cost at $1000. Though the Maggie's offer much, I'm convinced the socks would end up in my cat's hairballs & stool. Those cats are evil.

 

Since I don't have access to auditioning speakers outside of Magnolia's, I'm still considering DefTech. The local store doesn't stock the Studio Monitor 65 but they do have the 55 which has a single 6.5" woofer, 1" aluminum tweeter, and passive radiator. I haven't had the time to audition it, but it's there waiting when I do. The reviews are outstanding, and at 32-30kHz, 90dB, and 8 ohms, they should be very easy to drive.

 

An almost-local craigslister (45 miles) is selling a 1 year old, but used less than a month, pair of B&W 685's with stands - all in new condition with boxes for $500 and is throwing in a $200 DefTech sw in same cond w/box. I believe Magnolia's stocks those, but would still like to hear any opinions on these little speakers. Awwwe, what the heck, here's his pitch:

 

"I bought these on December 14, last year at Best Buy. Original receipt on hand. Original boxes, mint condition. They have been out of the box for about a month, before I got a job overseas. Out the door the bill was $702. 63. The stands are black, in great shape, and run $100+ new. Will throw in for free a Definitive Technology sub (retail $200+). Great shape, original box. $500 FIRM for speakers. stands, sub. Please don't waste my time or yours with lower bid."