World’s First Valid Comparison of PCM versus DSD?

[Nes]

Nes you shouldn't be put off. By adding DSD capability you at least have the opportunity to play back DSD. You never know someone will crack SACD's one day and you can play them back from your computer. I bought the Benchmark DAC2 with DSD for future use. In the mean time I play all my PCM files. These latest editions of DAC's have not only DSD capability but take PCM listening to new heights. PCM playback is being optimised all the time.

 

Let me clarify. I'm not being put off by listening to DSD (or PCM) through a DAC. Just the Ayre has dropped on my shortlist as it has a DSD implementation that the manufacturer does not fully stand behind. I'm still not sure why Ayre decided to support DSD at all if they think 1) well implemented PCM sounds better and 2) there is no DSD content to play anyway and 3) they want DSD to go the way of the dodo.

[sandyk]

Let me clarify. I'm not being put off by listening to DSD (or PCM) through a DAC. Just the Ayre has dropped on my shortlist as it has a DSD implementation that the manufacturer does not fully stand behind. I'm still not sure why Ayre decided to support DSD at all if they think 1) well implemented PCM sounds better and 2) there is no DSD content to play anyway and 3) they want DSD to go the way of the dodo.

 

Just because Charles Hansen believes that well implemented PCM sounds better than DSD, doesn't mean that his implementation of the DSD area is 2nd rate. To do so, would damage his brand's reputation, and he certainly would not do that. Mainstream DSD support from the majors has already gone the way of the Dodo, and I don't expect them to re-release previous SACD recordings. Shiny discs no longer fit in their preferred business model, as it involves manufacturing and distribution etc.

Alex

[Hiro]

OK, measurements galore!

 

Now BB DF1700 8x oversampling digital filter + PCM1700 R2R ladder DAC (I think the analog reconstruction filter was maybe 3rd order 30 kHz corner):

 

1 kHz square rise time with same time scale as earlier:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9742[/ATTACH]

 

I had to change the time scale to make it look closer like the earlier ones:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9743[/ATTACH]

 

 

Still not as good as DSD... even with the greatly changed time scale.

 

[Allan F]

Let me clarify. I'm not being put off by listening to DSD (or PCM) through a DAC. Just the Ayre has dropped on my shortlist as it has a DSD implementation that the manufacturer does not fully stand behind. I'm still not sure why Ayre decided to support DSD at all if they think 1) well implemented PCM sounds better and 2) there is no DSD content to play anyway and 3) they want DSD to go the way of the dodo.

 

I have no difficulty understanding your position. There is a certain hypocrisy in Charles Hansen of Ayre supporting a format that he doesn't believe in purely for marketing purposes. John Siau of Benchmark fits in the same category. I know it's a business, but both could promote PCM without publicly knocking DSD and calling for its demise. Many audiophiles, including myself, couldn't give a damn about the supposed limitations of the technology. All I want is the best sound quality regardless of whether it happens to be available as a PCM or DSD download. I probably would have delayed my entry into computer audio if I had not found out about ripping SACDs using an early firmware version of a PS3, as I was not about to abandon my SACD library.

[Hiro]

While Sony and Philips worked on the SACD, almost all of he other major audio manufacturers worked together to make a DVD disc specialized for music. By fudging the numbers to the point of mendacity Sony claimed an implied performance of 100 kHz bandwidth with a dynamic range of 120 dB. The only way to fight these totally misleading numbers was with numbers as big or bigger, which forced the DVD-Audio disc (as it came to be known) to be incompatible with the millions of DVD players that the early adopters had already purchased.

 

Very twisted logic that has nothing to do with reality.

 

The lack of compatibility of DVD-audio discs with DVD players has nothing to do with Sony, but the lack of compatibility of standard DVD players with new aggressive watermarking and copy protection schemes the DVD-Audio guys came up with for their format.

 

Also, the dynamic range of 120dB (or very close) has always been achievable with DSD, so the marketing claim was far more honest than the purely theoretical 144dB number used as an argument for the PCM format.

[alfe]

Very twisted logic that has nothing to do with reality.

 

The lack of compatibility of DVD-audio discs with DVD players has nothing to do with Sony, but the lack of compatibility of standard DVD players with new aggressive watermarking and copy protection schemes the DVD-Audio guys came up with.

 

Also, the dynamic range of 120dB (or very close) has always been achievable with DSD, so the marketing claim was far more honest than the purely theoretical 144dB number used as an argument for the PCM format.

 

Hiro,

 

Question about copy protection (PSP, watermarking..) are we still talking bit perfect?

Adding noise in PCM DSD conversion(which sound quiet good) are we still talking bit perfect?

[Hiro]

Hiro,

 

Question about copy protection (PSP, watermarking..) are we still talking bit perfect?

Adding noise in PCM DSD conversion(which sound quiet good) are we still talking bit perfect?

 

ad.1 As far as I know, the dvd-a watermarking was embedded directly in the audio data, so who knows...

 

ad.2 Practically every modern PCM DAC converts PCM to Delta Sigma so before the conversion to analog there's almost never PCM anymore.

[Hiro]

I have no difficulty understanding your position. There is a certain hypocrisy in Charles Hansen of Ayre supporting a format that he doesn't believe in purely for marketing purposes. John Siau of Benchmark fits in the same category. I know it's a business, but both could promote PCM without publicly knocking DSD and calling for its demise. Many audiophiles, including myself, couldn't give a damn about the supposed limitations of the technology. All I want is the best sound quality regardless of whether it happens to be available as a PCM or DSD download. I probably would have delayed my entry into computer audio if I had not found out about ripping SACDs using an early firmware version of a PS3, as I was not about to abandon my SACD library.

 

I would say, there's also a good deal of hypocrisy in Charles's accusations of "mendacity", as his own posts include misleading statements. I just hope he won't go on a killing spree at CES during Sony's presentation of their new DSD128 HDD players

[alfe]

ad.1 As far as I know, the dvd-a watermarking was embedded directly in the audio data, so who knows...

 

ad.2 Practically every modern PCM DAC converts PCM to Delta Sigma so before the conversion to analog there's almost never PCM anymore.

 

Sorry but for my second question i'm talking about recording studios conversion.

[Hiro]

Sorry but for my second question i'm talking about recording studios conversion.

 

I don't see a difference between a recording studio converting PCM to DSD, and your DAC (or software player) doing the same.

[alfe]

I don't see a difference between a recording studio converting PCM to DSD, and your DAC (or software player) doing the same.

 

Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: PCM to DSD Upsampling Effects (JRiver MC19 Beta).

 

The guys who are tube addict will confirm that noise bring a smoother sound but are we close to live music?

[alfe]

I don't see a difference between a recording studio converting PCM to DSD, and your DAC (or software player) doing the same.

 

When the conversion is done in studio you will use less CPU .

[Hiro]

Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: PCM to DSD Upsampling Effects (JRiver MC19 Beta).

 

The guys who are tube addict will confirm that noise bring a smoother sound but are we close to live music?

 

The main point of DSD is the complete elimination of SDM>PCM and PCM>SDM conversions.

[Hiro]

Output spectrum of the 20 kHz sine doesn't look very pretty though, notice the image frequencies repeating at both side of the 352.8k conversion frequency:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9746[/ATTACH]

 

Analyzer IMD reading is 0.025% for 19+20 kHz test tone.

 

Miska, would you be able to remove those image artifacts by using SDM/DSD upsampling?

[alfe]

The main point of DSD is the complete elimination of SDM>PCM and PCM>SDM conversions.

 

BitPerfect: “Pure” PCM and “Pure” DSD

[Jud]

I don't see a difference between a recording studio converting PCM to DSD, and your DAC (or software player) doing the same.

 

Depends which one does a better job.

[Hiro]

BitPerfect: “Pure” PCM and “Pure” DSD

 

All DSP manipulations can be done is SDM. So we don't need a breakthrough, only realization of the project. And I don't think it's correct to assume all SACD players and DSD DACs do low pass filtering in PCM domain, and only then upsample signal to SDM/DSD.

[Hiro]

Depends which one does a better job.

 

Of course, it will depend on the implementation. My point was simply that more often than not, PCM will always be changed into SDM. And so, Meitner or Playback Designs DACs will convert it into 1bit / 5.6MHz SDM, whereas dCS converters for example to 5bit / 2.8MHz SDM.

[alfe]

All DSP manipulations can be done is SDM. So we don't need a breakthrough, only realization of the project. And I don't think it's correct to assume all SACD players and DSD DACs do low pass filtering in PCM domain, and only then upsample signal to SDM/DSD.

 

I'm just feeding some information about the approach of SONY ¨-)

and read this below may be it will help you to understand why they choose this route.

 

http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf

[Hiro]

I'm just feeding some information about the approach of SONY ¨-)

 

Again, I don't think that's Sony's approach at all.

 

That paper about "unsuitability" of DSD just doesn't have relevance to reality.

 

You can read below how "unsuitable" DSD was to John Atkinson's ears when he heard Opus3 DSD recordings.

 

http://www.stereophile.com/content/opus-3s-jan-eric-persson

 

BTW, I've been reading how R2R PCM even at 16bit was far superior to anything delta-sigma, and when Miska measured its rise time it turned up to be inferior do DSD.

[firedog]

I'm just feeding some information about the approach of SONY ¨-)

and read this below may be it will help you to understand why they choose this route.

 

http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf

 

It's old hat, and no, it actually explains nothing about SONY.

 

And like all papers of this type, its' conclusions are disputed by some other professionals.

[alfe]

It's old hat, and no, it actually explains nothing about SONY.

 

And like all papers of this type, its' conclusions are disputed by some other professionals.

 

SACD released on 1999, this white paper is from2001 and that was our knowledge at this time.

[alfe]

Again, I don't think that's Sony's approach at all.

 

That paper about "unsuitability" of DSD just doesn't have relevance to reality.

 

You can read below how "unsuitable" DSD was to John Atkinson's ears when he heard Opus3 DSD recordings.

 

 

Opus 3's Jan-Eric Persson | Stereophile.com

 

BTW, I've been reading how R2R PCM even at 16bit was far superior to anything delta-sigma, and when Miska measured its rise time it turned up to be inferior do DSD.

 

I'm just explaining why they use PCM for low pass filtering in the first generation of SACD players.

[mav52]

Again, I don't think that's Sony's approach at all.

 

That paper about "unsuitability" of DSD just doesn't have relevance to reality.

 

You can read below how "unsuitable" DSD was to John Atkinson's ears when he heard Opus3 DSD recordings.

 

Opus 3's Jan-Eric Persson | Stereophile.com

 

BTW, I've been reading how R2R PCM even at 16bit was far superior to anything delta-sigma, and when Miska measured its rise time it turned up to be inferior do DSD.

 

 

Hiro where did you readin that link you provided where JA noted "unsuitable".. I read """ I took a listen to some of Jan-Eric Persson's recordings, transferred to double-DSD from analog tape and was, in a word, gobsmacked by the sheer beauty of what I was hearing. "" the key words are sheer beauty. Gobsmacked means astonished.

[Hiro]

Hiro where did you readin that link you provided where JA noted "unsuitable".. I read """ I took a listen to some of Jan-Eric Persson's recordings, transferred to double-DSD from analog tape and was, in a word, gobsmacked by the sheer beauty of what I was hearing. "" the key words are sheer beauty. Gobsmacked means astonished.

 

Well, my statement was kind of ironic