sacd_extract DSF output problem

[Miska]

Errhmm, what ?

Seems that I really need to check the manual first before digging further into it ... :-)

 

How is "transport mode" enabled? What would be the right settings to look at/for?

 

I know this concept is quite unique...

 

In desktop GUI mode:

• When you select an album from HQPlayer's library for playback, you get "transport mode". It is also indicated by display of for example "DSDIFF/DSF transport" message in the status bar.
  
• When you select individual tracks from library, or use drag-and-drop to drop content on the player window, you get "playlist mode". This is indicated also by message "Playlist transport" in the status bar.
  

 

In touch GUI mode:

• When you select album from left view (cover flow), you get "transport mode".
  
• When you select content from right view (playlist editor), you get "playlist mode".
  

 

Another way to view it; transport mode = album mode and playlist mode = track list mode. These are handled in different way internally with different assumptions about content. Album mode is handled kind of similar way as if you'd have entire album as one file and just cue sheet to indicate where the tracks are inside.

[Synfreak]

Thanks Jussi!

I will definately report my findings regarding the clicks!

 

Cheers

Harald

[Synfreak]

I just tested HQPlayer regarding to my "Click'n'tick" problem I have encountered whilst playing back DSDIFF files via Foobar, and ... surprise surprise ... there are no such problems when using HQPlayer.

 

I have tested this with several files/albums I have available as seperate DSDIFF files, including some selections from live recordings, which should be played without any interuption.

 

As the rest of the playback chain is still exactly the same - including the "asio_proxy" driver as used with foobar - it seems to me that this problem is related to the "foo_input_sacd" plugin from Maxim Anisiutkin ... or maybe Foobar ...

 

I am not sure that this problem hasn't evolved during one of the latest updates, as I am quite sure that this wasn't a problem when I started evaluating DSD playback.

 

There is NO problem using the components named, when running realtime DSDtoPCM conversion!

 

I think I will need to contact Maxim about this.

 

Thanks Jussi for your help and suggestions!

 

Cheers

Harald

[root9]

I thought Sonore truncated the last bits of the file when it performs a DSD to DSF conversion. HQplayer is somehow smoothing that out and preventing the clicks?

[Synfreak]

I thought Sonore truncated the last bits of the file when it performs a DSD to DSF conversion. HQplayer is somehow smoothing that out and preventing the clicks?

 

Yes, but I use - because of the bug in the ISO to DSF extraction - DSDIFF files instead. And these seem to play just fine in HQPlayer ...

[root9]

Yes, but I use - because of the bug in the ISO to DSF extraction - DSDIFF files instead. And these seem to play just fine in HQPlayer ...

 

Ah..I'm used to calling them by their extension, read it as DSF..

 

My foobar player seems to have no click problems playing those though. I'm using version 1.2.3 of foobar and 0.6.6 of foo_input_sacd.

[Synfreak]

My foobar player seems to have no click problems playing those though. I'm using version 1.2.3 of foobar and 0.6.6 of foo_input_sacd.

 

Thanks for the input!

So I really need to investigate this further with different Foobar and plugin versions.

 

It seems to me there is even some audio missing on some track transitions, which becomes evident if playing back i.e. live albums (or the like).

And some times the Clicks are very faint (best spotted with headphones then), but also very obvious on other tracks.

Puzzling.

[root9]

I assume you've had no clicking problems with other file types and foobar, like flac etc..(?)

[Synfreak]

I assume you've had no clicking problems with other file types and foobar, like flac etc..(?)

 

Yes. No problems at all with ANY other file format (even be it DTS or AC3 or ...).

If I let the foo_input_sacd plugin do its on the fly DSD to PCM conversion, the clicks (and skips) aren't a problem either.

[Synfreak]

@root9:

 

I think I found the reason for the Clicks I have with DSD playback on Foobar.

Try to set your playback buffer settings to a quite high number, i.e. 5000ms, and listen carefully whats happening during song transitions.

 

 

I found out, that on my setup, Foobar skips exactly the time set for the buffer, and therefor a part of the preceding song is truncated ...

 

It would be great if you could do some testing, as I try to nail the problem down, before reporting it as a bug to Maxim.

[khmusi]

Hallo Synfreak,

 

I not anderstand the problem with foobar.

In this Thread were explain about the conversion from SACD-iso to dsf-files, which can expound the click problems.

 

Or is this not the status quo in this thread?

 

I use Audirvane as player.

 

Greatings

 

Klemens

[root9]

@root9:

 

I think I found the reason for the Clicks I have with DSD playback on Foobar.

Try to set your playback buffer settings to a quite high number, i.e. 5000ms, and listen carefully whats happening during song transitions.

 

 

I found out, that on my setup, Foobar skips exactly the time set for the buffer, and therefor a part of the preceding song is truncated ....

 

I'm glad you found the problem. I don't have the capability of reproducing your issue since I am not using foo_dsd_asio. I have foo_input_sacd set to convert to PCM. Sacrilege I know!

 

All the same, I want to keep my dsd files dsd of course.

[Synfreak]

@klemens:

Yes it was a bit OT, but helped me to fix the problem

 

 

@root9:

OK, but thank you for your help. And it seems not to be a sacrilege to convert DSD to PCM with Foobar, as I had to learn ;-)

 

 

I have started a new thread for discussing the playback issues with Foobar here:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/foobar-2000-and-direct-stream-digital-playback-possible-bug-problem-19852/

[Kouichi Hasegawa]

Hey, I have the same problems of extracting SACD-ISO into individual files.

I think only use the master-edit DFF and the cue is correct， but there isn't any software can spit DFF by cue sheet.

Any solution?

(sorry for my bad English)

[Synfreak]

Hello and welcome Kouichi!

 

It depends on what you would like to achieve after you have extracted the file(s) from the SACD ISO.

 

If you would like to convert it to PCM, the DSIDIFF Edit Master plus CUE-sheet is the way to go (in my opinion, as this will lead to a click-free conversion).

 

If you want to play the DSD files directly (be it as native DSD to a capable DAC, or via real-time conversion to PCM), you can use individual DSDIFF files as target. This works quite well, as far as I can say, and doesn't suffer from missing bits like the extraction to DSF files does ...

[Kouichi Hasegawa]

Hello and welcome Kouichi!

 

It depends on what you would like to achieve after you have extracted the file(s) from the SACD ISO.

 

If you would like to convert it to PCM, the DSIDIFF Edit Master plus CUE-sheet is the way to go (in my opinion, as this will lead to a click-free conversion).

 

If you want to play the DSD files directly (be it as native DSD to a capable DAC, or via real-time conversion to PCM), you can use individual DSDIFF files as target. This works quite well, as far as I can say, and doesn't suffer from missing bits like the extraction to DSF files does ...

Hi！Thanks for your reply.

I'd like to play the DSD directly，and I prefer to play individual DSD files.

But I notice there’s some bugs of extracting SACD ISO into individual DSD files.

The length of each song is not matched to the DSIDIFF Edit Master plus CUE-sheet.

I want to solve it but I wonder how.

 

 

 

Here is a example for my CD‘s Track 1 and 2

 

 

01 Todokanaikoi Live at Campus Fes（TV anime ver.）

 

 

use sacd_extract 0.3.7 5:07.000

use fooba2000 to play sacd-ISO directly 5:03.133

use scarletbook.exe(r268） 5:03.000

DSIDIFF Edit Master plus CUE-sheet 5:05.440

 

 

02 Akujyo

 

 

use sacd_extract 0.3.7 4:00.000

use fooba2000 to play sacd-ISO directly 3:58.240

use scarletbook.exe(r268） 3:58.000

DSIDIFF Edit Master plus CUE-sheet 4:00.533

 

 

(Sorry for my bad English.)

[Miska]

If you would like to convert it to PCM, the DSIDIFF Edit Master plus CUE-sheet is the way to go (in my opinion, as this will lead to a click-free conversion).

 

Do you mean click-free in terms of extraction bugs or playback? Playback of multiple DSD files in itself is click-free as long as they form a continuous stream...

[Synfreak]

Do you mean click-free in terms of extraction bugs or playback? Playback of multiple DSD files in itself is click-free as long as they form a continuous stream...

 

I meant it in relation to DSD to PCM conversions, which can introduce some faint clicks on the start and ending of tracks (i.e. Saracon).

 

This is not related to problems due to SACD ISO file extraction (i.e. missing bits in DSF files).

[Synfreak]

Hi！Thanks for your reply.

I'd like to play the DSD directly，and I prefer to play individual DSD files.

But I notice there’s some bugs of extracting SACD ISO into individual DSD files.

The length of each song is not matched to the DSIDIFF Edit Master plus CUE-sheet.

I want to solve it but I wonder how.

...

 

OK, I will have to take a closer look for that.

[Kouichi Hasegawa]

OK, I will have to take a closer look for that.

 

The same issue.

For reference.

https://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/issues/detail?id=42

[paul3000h]

Just to say the click problem is still in Foobar. I have done further testing. My buffer was set at 50 ms when there were clicks at the end of both iso and dsf's but with the buffer at 500 or higher up to 30000 ms max the clicks are only on the dsf's so my foobar has not been fixed by latest SACD Decoder 0.7.1 and asio proxy 0.7.1.2 in foobar as Synfreak says his has been fixed.

 

 

Does this mean all the dsf's must be re-converted from the iso when the Sonore extractor is fixed? Does the Korg extracter cause the same problem?

[Synfreak]

@ paul3000h:

 

As I do not use *.dsf files - and also strongly recommend not to extract directly to *dsf files.

 

The frontend you might want to use doesn't matter here,as they all - to my knowledge - use the "sacd_extract.exe" code, and therefor will have the exact same "missing bits" problem ...

 

If your playback software does not make use of tags written into DSDIFF files, you should convert from *.dsdiff to*.dsf with i.e. Korgs Audiogate (that should be transparent here).

 

Foobar can write tags to DSDIFF, and of course will read it too, so no need for this process at all.

 

Just use either direct *.iso playback (may need some more cpu cycles for "decoding/unpacking" of DST compressed material), or use DSDIFF file format to avoid further problems ...

 

I do not have the "clicking problem" you have described. The only times that _might_ happen are transitions from PCM to DSD playback and vice versa (i.e. also when you stop playback, your DAC - and/or its driver - may reset to PCM transmission).

[DragonQ]

I can't seem to find a seamless solution for playing back my SACDs in Foobar like I do for my CD and DVD-A rips. The problem is that, because of the documented issues with sacd_extract's DSF output, I've used DFF output. The files play fine in Foobar but the problem is I can't add tags, which means I can't have the files added to my auto-playlists. I can tag each track within the ISO without issues but, again, this doesn't work for auto-playlists.

 

Basically what I need is to safely convert the DFF files from sacd_extract to DSF but neither of the two pieces of software I've found can do this. Audiogate won't recognise the files when I try to add them, DFF to DSF Converter throws an error whilst trying to do the conversion, saying the files are corrupted (even though they're straight from sacd_extract and play fine).

 

What can I do to get this working, aside from converting the files to PCM?

[ted_b]

I think you are over reacting to the DSF issue. The clicks are, in many cases, inaudible (depending on DAC and player). That said, your Audiogate setup must be in error, because my Audiogate recognizes DFF perfectly.

[DragonQ]

I think you are over reacting to the DSF issue. The clicks are, in many cases, inaudible (depending on DAC and player). That said, your Audiogate setup must be in error, because my Audiogate recognizes DFF perfectly.

The "DSF issue" prevents gapless playback, which is not acceptable.

 

I did nothing to Audiogate except install it and run it. I've read in some places that it only works for stereo files, which could be the problem since I'm dealing with 5.1 files.