Hoping this is the right folder - advice for DAC integration for Spotify > Airplay set up

[damnspynovels]

Quick scene setting.

 

I've got an old Arcam amp that I love the sound of. I currently stream spotify (set to its extreme, 320kbps format) to my amp via airplay to a brand new (re. square) Airport Express, and have it hooked up to my amp via analogue connections.

 

Compared to CDs played through my Arcam player, audio from Spotify sounds flat, undynamic etc. I didn't expect it to be quite so obvious.

 

So I'm wondering if a DAC will improve things. I've read some DACs don't play nicely with the AE, so am looking for advice as to how I might improve things.

[realhifi]

Quick scene setting.

 

I've got an old Arcam amp that I love the sound of. I currently stream spotify (set to its extreme, 320kbps format) to my amp via airplay to a brand new (re. square) Airport Express, and have it hooked up to my amp via analogue connections.

 

Compared to CDs played through my Arcam player, audio from Spotify sounds flat, undynamic etc. I didn't expect it to be quite so obvious.

 

So I'm wondering if a DAC will improve things. I've read some DACs don't play nicely with the AE, so am looking for advice as to how I might improve things.

 

You are hearing the limitations of Spotify. It simply is not as good as a cd. The old hifi quote "garbage in garbage out" is painfully obvious here.

 

It is is halfway decent way to listen to background music and hear new new artists but that is the extent of it.

[damnspynovels]

You are hearing the limitations of Spotify. It simply is not as good as a cd. The old hifi quote "garbage in garbage out" is painfully obvious here.

 

It is is halfway decent way to listen to background music and hear new new artists but that is the extent of it.

 

So you're saying that a DAC won't make things sound any more tolerable? I don't want to come off as being ignorant, I was just wondering if the AE is a possible weak link and there might be some improvement to be found with another DAC, regardless of how poor Spotify is in the first place.

[Audio_ELF]

I would disagree with David and suggest even with Spotify, a DAC added to your AirPort Express would be worthwhile. Don't go overboard but something like Musical Fidelity V-90 DAC or Audiolab Q-DAC would offer an improvement.

 

Another option would be something like Denon DNP-720AE, Pioneer N30 or the new Arcam airDAC. All these offer Airplay built in (no need for AirPort Express).

 

Eloise

[Cebolla]

I certainly agree with Eloise, with both those options. However, should you choose to go via the hifi seperate streamer route for Airplay support, don't automatically assume that it can also play any Apple lossless/ALAC files you may have via UPnP/DLNA. The Denon DNP-720AE can't, for example, though it's entirely possible that it may do so with a future firmware upgrade.

[realhifi]

I would disagree with David and suggest even with Spotify, a DAC added to your AirPort Express would be worthwhile. Don't go overboard but something like Musical Fidelity V-90 DAC or Audiolab Q-DAC would offer an improvement.

 

Another option would be something like Denon DNP-720AE, Pioneer N30 or the new Arcam airDAC. All these offer Airplay built in (no need for AirPort Express).

 

Eloise

 

All I meant was I wouldn't purchase a Dac just to listen to 320 kp files. Say what you will, all you need to do is to listen to Spotify through first an AirPort Express using analog out and then listen to the digital out into say something like a Marantz or Audio Research or Linn or whatever your digital converter of choice is and see how much different (or not) it is.

 

No matter how you slice it, Spotify just ain't very good and no matter WHICH Dac you choose it will never sound as good as a decent cd played on a decent CD player.

[realhifi]

So you're saying that a DAC won't make things sound any more tolerable? I don't want to come off as being ignorant, I was just wondering if the AE is a possible weak link and there might be some improvement to be found with another DAC, regardless of how poor Spotify is in the first place.

 

It can slightly improve things. "Pretty" things up so to speak. It is just NOT a replacement for CDs played on a good CD player. To be honest, I find MOG to be superior in sound quality to Spotify but it may not be available in your area.

[Paul R]

Hi David -

I was going to dispute the point with you, but decided I better give it a listen first. I attached a Peachtree DAC*IT via optical to an Airport Express then streamed Spotify and MOG from my laptop over the AE. Then I removed the DAC*IT and tried it again.

 

I had to repeat that a few times, but the AE actually sounds better streaming MOG and Spotify by itself, than when the DAC*IT is being used. Duh- might have different results with a different DAC, but that was a surprise result for me. And I don't get to dispute the question with you!

 

-Paul

 

 

It can slightly improve things. "Pretty" things up so to speak. It is just NOT a replacement for CDs played on a good CD player. To be honest, I find MOG to be superior in sound quality to Spotify but it may not be available in your area.

[realhifi]

Hi David -

I was going to dispute the point with you, but decided I better give it a listen first. I attached a Peachtree DAC*IT via optical to an Airport Express then streamed Spotify and MOG from my laptop over the AE. Then I removed the DAC*IT and tried it again.

 

I had to repeat that a few times, but the AE actually sounds better streaming MOG and Spotify by itself, than when the DAC*IT is being used. Duh- might have different results with a different DAC, but that was a surprise result for me. And I don't get to dispute the question with you!

 

-Paul

 

Heck, no disputes, just different opinions as far as I see it.

 

Now if you go as far as what Eloise is suggesting with actual different streamers with AirPlay built in, the picture gets slightly murkier as to what is "better". Still; a pig is a pig.

[mayhem13]

Hi David -

I was going to dispute the point with you, but decided I better give it a listen first. I attached a Peachtree DAC*IT via optical to an Airport Express then streamed Spotify and MOG from my laptop over the AE. Then I removed the DAC*IT and tried it again.

 

I had to repeat that a few times, but the AE actually sounds better streaming MOG and Spotify by itself, than when the DAC*IT is being used. Duh- might have different results with a different DAC, but that was a surprise result for me. And I don't get to dispute the question with you!

 

-Paul

 

That's a surprise outcome?! Would have never thought the generic DAC in the the Airport was any good, especially compared to that of the DAC-iT.

[Paul R]

Oui! Exactement! Ce n'est pas une surprise pour vous M. Mayhem?

 

 

That's a surprise outcome?! Would have never thought the generic DAC in the the Airport was any good, especially compared to that of the DAC-iT.

[Cebolla]

Hi David -

I was going to dispute the point with you, but decided I better give it a listen first. I attached a Peachtree DAC*IT via optical to an Airport Express then streamed Spotify and MOG from my laptop over the AE. Then I removed the DAC*IT and tried it again.

 

I had to repeat that a few times, but the AE actually sounds better streaming MOG and Spotify by itself, than when the DAC*IT is being used. Duh- might have different results with a different DAC, but that was a surprise result for me. And I don't get to dispute the question with you!

 

-Paul

Explained by jitty digital out from the AE, not helped by poor power supply, perhaps?

[mayhem13]

Explained by jitty digital out from the AE, not helped by poor power supply, perhaps?

 

That would suggest the Dac iT isn't capable of correcting for jitter...which would be the LAST thing i would expect given the rave reviews of the unit.

 

All things being considered, I don't think Paul's assesment should indicate the quality of a piece of gear.....but instead as we've all argued, discussed and testified to, it's in fact his personal preference for SQ.

[Paul R]

Eh- it is the gear in this case, and most likely high jitter from the AE unit I used.

 

I would have expected you least of all to claim that mere preference could make a difference. I thought you ignored any mere preference, unless it involves a dollar sign.

 

Actually, I tend to test gear as much or more than most people here. Probably more, but that is arguable. I just do not have an agenda to prove that any gear is better than or not better than any other gear. I come from the Stereo Review time, when measurements were very important. I have been known to get to the point where I don't trust my ears, sometimes even based on opinions presented here. Fortunately, I also tend to come to my senses before making many expensive mistakes.

 

After I have some idea of the facts, then I may make a descision based upon my preferences.

 

Paul

 

That would suggest the Dac iT isn't capable of correcting for jitter...which would be the LAST thing i would expect given the rave reviews of the unit.

 

All things being considered, I don't think Paul's assesment should indicate the quality of a piece of gear.....but instead as we've all argued, discussed and testified to, it's in fact his personal preference for SQ.

[mayhem13]

Ok....so the Dac iTs DAC is inferior to the one in the AE. The DAC in the AE was better able to handle the jitter.

[Blake]

Concerning Paul's findings:

 

Could this be a case where a superior DAC is more accurate and revealing, thus exposing/highlighting the source material's deficiencies? Whereas a cheaper DAC may gloss over the deficiencies due it being less revealing or less capable of providing more accurate resolution?

 

On a related angle, with some poorly recorded, bright, digital, glassy music from the 80's, I find it actually preferable to listen this music streamed over MOG, as compared to listening to a cd rip. Listening to a cd rip of this poorly-recorded material can be unbearable, as it highlights the poor recording quality.

 

The analogy would be watching standard def. material on a high def. television.

[mayhem13]

More accurate?....revealing?.......not sure where this is going. One of primary functions of a DAC is jitter correction. If it can't handle this fundamental function...and I'm not saying that I agree with Paul's assesment as the cause.

[Blake]

...and I'm not sure where your post is going, Mayhem. I thought my post was pretty clear.

 

I am not interested in debating this. I was simply pointing out a possible hypothesis.

[Paul R]

Did not mean it that way, just that the difference was in the hardware. I would guess that the less calable DAC in the AE just glossed over the poor source a bit.

 

Ok....so the Dac iTs DAC is inferior to the one in the AE. The DAC in the AE was better able to handle the jitter.

[Cebolla]

Of course none of this discussion really helps damnspynovels, apart from providing some confirmation to info obtained elsewhere:

So I'm wondering if a DAC will improve things. I've read some DACs don't play nicely with the AE, so am looking for advice as to how I might improve things.

Since damnspynovels is not happy with the AE's own DAC and connecting a more 'decent' one appears to make things worse, then I don't think I'm sticking my neck out too far by suggesting that may be the advice would be to ditch the AE altogether and just go for Eloise's second option.

[mayhem13]

Aaaaah but the above discussions are a debate over the conclusion you drew even before you did and that is that an external DAC would not improve the SQ of the airport express....of which has neither been proven or disproven by Paul's subjective experience. My experience, although I did not share it was quite the opposite with my AE's and ATVs...all of which IMO and experience were a significant improvement over the AE's analog output ( the ATV does not possess analog outs).

[Paul R]

Did you experience that when you were streaming MOG and Spotify from a remote computer?

 

If I am streaming normal redbook material the DAC*IT sounds significantly better than the AE DAC. Remember, the experiment was limited to MOG and Spotify.

 

-Paul

 

 

Aaaaah but the above discussions are a debate over the conclusion you drew even before you did and that is that an external DAC would not improve the SQ of the airport express....of which has neither been proven or disproven by Paul's subjective experience. My experience, although I did not share it was quite the opposite with my AE's and ATVs...all of which IMO and experience were a significant improvement over the AE's analog output ( the ATV does not possess analog outs).

[Cebolla]

Aaaaah but the above discussions are a debate over the conclusion you drew even before you did and that is that an external DAC would not improve the SQ of the airport express....of which has neither been proven or disproven by Paul's subjective experience.

There is a difference between hypothesis and conclusion, time flows in one direction, written evidence, etc, basic science should have taught you that. Is this misrepresentation of my posts your way of drawing me into yet another off topic discussion? Well if it is, I'm not biting and if it isn't then I suggest you go over them, ALL of them, a bit more carefully next time!

 

Aaaaah - appologies to damnspynovels (and for interrupting Paul's question), as I too have succumbed!

[Cebolla]

aaah - appologies to damnspynovels (and for interrupting Paul's question), as I too have succumbed!

...and apologies for the spelling too!

[spike9876]

Quick scene setting.

 

I've got an old Arcam amp that I love the sound of. I currently stream spotify (set to its extreme, 320kbps format) to my amp via airplay to a brand new (re. square) Airport Express, and have it hooked up to my amp via analogue connections.

 

Compared to CDs played through my Arcam player, audio from Spotify sounds flat, undynamic etc. I didn't expect it to be quite so obvious.

 

So I'm wondering if a DAC will improve things. I've read some DACs don't play nicely with the AE, so am looking for advice as to how I might improve things.

 

Just for your info... If you are using Airplay... You are doing a disservice to the audio.

 

Yes, Airplay is a nice concept but anything wireless is real bad.

 

I too thought Airplay was nice with my Apple TV... but I did the following experiment. Playing Spotify directly from my AVR (Integra DHC 80.3) vs playing Spotify via Apple TV via air play.

 

1. Play Spotify with IPad via AirPlay -- Audio was real bad.

2. Connected Ipad to AVR via USB --> Good

3. Play Spotify via AVR --> Excellent

 

If you are using anything wireless... You are missing out... and understandibly it will sound flat.

 

Now, I am am hard pressed to notice a difference between Spotify vs audio CD... but must admit that audio CD's is better... but to me its not night and day. It is night and day between Airplay (wireless) vs playing Spotify via AVR or other devices like Logitech SB or PC connected to AVR via HDMI.