Wyred 4 Sound Dac2SE Upgrade Revisited & Findings -- The Best Decision Unequivocally!

[Wyred 4 Sound]

Hi all,

 

First, we wish to thank those who were among the first to upgrade. We're excited about these new chips and all they bring to the table. Be sure to put some time on your new DACs as they will need some burn in time to sound their best. Also, you will note that there are a few new menu settings, particularly Filters. These can make a sonic difference so worth experimenting with. In general the 'slow' filters will be more slanted for acoustical/vocal tracks, whereas 'fast' will be more 'all-rounders'. Depending on the rest of your system and preferences, YMMV, and in our experience, they can be subtle.

 

To address some issues that have been brought up here recently, upgraded DACs will be delivered with default factory settings for the setup menu. If you previously made any custom settings to your DAC, you will need to go into the setup menu to reconfigure it with those settings. Regarding the setup menu, you will notice a few new things: the aforementioned Filters, and also Jitter Eliminator and Dim Delay. The latter two are unique to the 2v2SE. Jitter Eliminator is essentially a control over the digital signal tracking. The lower one sets this option, the narrower the tracking window. While lower may result in better sound, it could also result in more drop outs or other unintended behavior. If you are having some issues with track lock or other anomalies, try bumping this setting up. Dim Delay is meant to provide optimum sound, reduce internal heat and preserve the OLED display on your new DAC by turning off the display after a set period of time. You can set it for up to 240 seconds. You can always wake up the display by pressing the Power button on the front of the DAC or pushing the Dim button on the remote. Please read through the new manual for more information on your new DAC.

 

There has been some confusion regarding DSD playback compatibility. The USB interface has not changed on the 2v2 series from before. Thus, it will play PCM files up to 32 bit/384 kHz and up to DSD 256, the latter natively using ASIO drivers.

 

We're always here to help and support if needed. Please email us directly at [email protected].

 

Thanks,

Tony

[Wyred 4 Sound]

Hi all,

We wanted to give everyone an update on our progress toward resolving some recently reported issues related to DSD playback with the 9038PRO chip. First, we sincerely appreciate the patience of those affected during the past week. It has been all hands on deck at Wyred, essentially dropping everything to address this.

 

To recap and summarize, this issue can manifest itself as scratchy, poppy, hissing or other unintended sonic artifacts while playing DSD files specifically. Some have reported this only with DSD 256 playback, but others have reported no problems whatsoever. This inconsistency certainly made things more difficult to troubleshoot, however, we were able to replicate things on our end and thus address them.

 

The first issue we found was heat-related. Due to their clock and processing requirements, DSD files can generate much more heat on the chip than PCM files. During some DSD playback, we found that excessive heat could be directly related to some sonic anomalies. We were told that the chip was pin-compatible which it is, however, the 9038 has a thermal pad where the 9018 does not. Despite the datasheet noting that the exposed thermal pad can be left floating, we found that with higher sample rate playback, it is necessary to be connected for proper cooling. When we cooled the chip down, these issues went away. Our solution is to add a custom-made heatsink for the chip so we can avoid this altogether, since the original design with the 9018 didn’t have the thermal pad designed into the PCB. This has proved to work extremely well.

 

The second issue we found was related to erroneously defaulting bits within a register which were undisclosed in the datasheet. This was causing another set of sonic irregularities. When we were able to gather the correct information and reprogram the register, the issues went away.

 

One other thing we’d like to point out is that during testing using the latest Roon 1.3, we’ve found that it seems to be having its own playback issues, either with a ’transport load’ error or some strange sonic artifacts during playing and pausing a DSD track. Please be aware that this is unrelated to the ESS issues and we are confident the guys at Roon will sort things out shortly.

 

After finding and addressing these areas mentioned above, playback has been clean. It's important to state that there is absolutely no sonic change or compromises of any kind as a result of our updates (excepting of course the fixed DSD issues). For those that have an upgraded DAC, please be on the lookout for our direct email to resolve any issues you may be having. Those with DACs currently in for upgrade, thank you for patiently waiting; you can expect shipping next week. It’s important to note that if you are not experiencing issues, we do not feel you need to worry about anything. There are only a handful of customers who have reported issues. Others have reported having none. If you are in the latter camp, please continue enjoying your DAC.

 

Lastly, we’d like to add that we’re thankful for being such a small and customer-centric company that and quickly adapt and correct on such short notice. We truly appreciate all of your support. We still feel that the new 2v2 DACs are among the finest available on the market today, and despite these small, very specific DSD playback anomalies, the new 2v2se with the 9038PRO chip is groundbreaking in what it has achieved.

 

We can always be contacted directly at [email protected].

 

Thanks,

Tony and EJ

[Wyred 4 Sound]

@KDinsmore, please check your inbox. We sent a recent update email to everyone who has their DAC here for the upgrade. We are still planning on beginning shipping DACs back this week. When your DAC ships, you will receive an email from us with tracking information. We're working as quickly as we can; your continued patience is appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Tony

[Wyred 4 Sound]

Hello all,

Now that we’ve finalized our updates to the new DAC-2v2SE upgrade, we wanted to post a recap on things. Please refer to our original post #1411 in this thread for some background on what the issues were (specifically with DSD playback) and what we found to be the causes. In short, the sonic anomalies that could manifest themselves with DSD playback were attributable to an undisclosed register which erroneously set itself. This was coupled with the heat from the new 9038PRO chip based on placement of the DAC-2 and room temperatures it was exposed to. It should be noted that we worked with the lead designer of the 9038PRO directly on these issues, and that our original implementation was within data sheet specifications.

 

The undisclosed register was easy to reprogram. Once we were given the correct information, the playback issues resulting from that error went away (swooshing sound at startup and sporadic throughout some tracks).

 

The heat issue was interesting to find. The ESS data sheet states that the 9038 is a pin-compatible replacement for the 9018, and the exposed pad on the 9038 ”can be left open, connected to digital or analog ground. Internally connected to substrate via a conductive epoxy”, to quote ESS. Our 9038 chip implementation operated completely within acceptable temperature range, however, we found that once it reached a certain temperature after playing consecutive DSD tracks the sound would develop artifacts reminiscent of a noisy transistor. Adding to this, we found that the provided specs noted a MCLK far less than what is required for higher rate playback such as DSD256. With higher rates comes higher current demand and with that comes heat.

 

Our solution was a custom heatsink, made in-house with our CNC machine. See the images below. You can see how large the heatsink is, this was purposefully made to ensure proper cooling within a chassis that doesn’t have much moving air. Natural convection cooling is not very efficient so the heatsink disperses it over a large area. Together, with a more efficient 5v regulator we are now using, the result is a much cooler running product that is actually cooler than the previous DAC-2 DSDse!

 

We’re quite pleased with the results and our solution as the heatsink not only solves the immediate problem, but actually ensures unit performance in the long run as well. I can report that after 3 days of thermal testing, we are able to keep the chip under 45c in an 26c room playing nothing but the highest rate for maximum heat. Given the chip is tolerant up to 75c, we’re in great shape.

 

Once the updates were implemented, all reported issues were resolved and playback was flawless. I know this because I’ve been personally listening to each unit for 30 minutes before they ship. This new DAC is unbelievably engaging!

 

If you have a DAC here for upgrade, we are completing the work as I write this and you can expect an email from us with tracking information once it ships. I know we’ve said this before, but we appreciate everyone’s patience during the last 2 weeks!

 

I’ll add a final note regarding the comparisons to other DACs with the same chip: as you probably already know, ESS plays a large part in how products sound but there is still a lot of “magic” to come from what happens from the surrounding design. I have personally compared another, less expensive product with the 9038 and can share that ours surely is worth every penny!

 

Thanks,

EJ

[Wyred 4 Sound]

I received my upgraded(9038) DAC last night. It sounds fantastic right out of the box. I am using USB input with my very developed usb transport system(PPA V4 > intona > RUR > iPrurifier 2). Very engaging and musical with an increased command and presence. Great clarity and detail. I imagine the depth and soundstage will increase as it burns in, but it is already very impressive and a clear upgrade over its previous 9018 incarnation.

 

I was not able to get the i2s to work. I tried the normal, the left justified and the right justified settings in the W4S setup with no luck. The switches on the SU-1 are in the off(default) position, which matches the PS Audio protocol. I was told somewhere that W4S follows the same protocol, but I can not find documentation. If anyone knows please share here. I will contact Wyred, do research, and see if I can get the i2s working this weekend. I will post here if I do.

@Franatic,

We do internal I2S tests here using a PS Audio PWT, so the pin configuration should work with other products configured as PS Audio. Not sure why it wouldn’t? Perhaps a setting in the Singxer needs to be adjusted?

I’m not sure I gave you this information before, here is the pin config for our I2S:

https://wyred4sound.com/faq/what-dac-2-dsd-dsdse-i2s-pin-configuration

 

Let us know if you have any other questions. Ultimately, if needed you can send both units here and we can take a look.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

On 3/20/2017 at 4:42 PM, audio.bill said:

Haven't seen any response to this yet, thought it might have been overlooked with the forum conversion going on. TIA

Hi @audio.bill, 

 

We've discussed things both with MQA and internally about this, and our consensus then and now is that due to investment costs and uncertainty with how MQA will ultimately materialize, we're in wait-and-see mode. If things become more clear with respect to content availability, costs and consumer demand for what we see as a sustainable new format, we'll definitely consider it strongly.  

[Wyred 4 Sound]

Hi all,

Happy Friday evening to everyone and hopefully some good music listening over the next couple of days! EJ and I have read some of the recent comments regarding the new Singxer I2S converter and the microrendu and thought it best to address them now rather than let things linger through the weekend. 

We have a Singxer unit coming to us next week that we'll be able to take a look at. This is a relatively new development and as a hardware company, we make every effort to ensure that our I2S implementation conforms to industry standards and is compatible with as many products as possible. Such is not always the case, but it’s always our goal. We’re not sure why the Singxer has a reported incompatibility or even if the Singxer’s implementation is just not compatible with ours, but we’ll know more next week and post our findings. 

Regarding the microrendu, this is something we also want to work as much as many of you. Just as we recently worked tirelessly to fix the 9038 chip DSD issues in just a couple weeks' time, if this were a strictly local (in-house) issue, it certainly would have been resolved long ago. However, anytime there are multiple platforms involved, it’s a collaborative effort between parties to resolve any inconsistencies. Our USB implementation should be compatible, but the issue is with linking our DAC with the microrendu’s OS. EJ has spoken personally with many of you on this, as well as spoken to Jesus of Sonore on multiple occasions. It’s been a bit of a moving target and the team effort of the involved parties needs to continue to work to come to a resolution. It's important to also keep in mind that what we've been told is that native DSD support is meant to work with XMOS devices, others by nature are incompatible with the driver at this point. You can read on Sonore's page the following: "Native DSD playback can produce noise between tracks, change in rate, and when playback is paused/stopped/resummed. This noise is expected and depends on your DAC's firmware. The noise can be at full volume. For best results select DoP for DSD playback."

 

For our part, we apologize for any inconvenience on this. Since we’d like to have it work as much as you would, be assured that it is something we're working on with Sonore and hopefully it can be resolved soon.

 

Thanks and have a great weekend.

Tony

[Wyred 4 Sound]

Hi all,

 

We wanted to give an update on the Singxer issue and its resolution. Thank you @Franatic for bringing potential issues to our attention and for graciously lending us his unit to look at. That the Singxer was deemed incompatible using I2S (specifically PCM playback per Franatic) with our new DAC was interesting to us since our I2S has been a proven implementation and works in all of the configurations we’ve used and tested it under for many years. Once we were able to begin evaluation of the Singxer, we quickly found some playback issues both with PCM and DSD. What struck us as strange was that these issues varied with different versions of our DACs, which all employ the same I2S implementation. This suggested that we needed to look closer at the Singxer. To jump to conclusions, we found an instability in the Singxer I2S output, which was then easily remedied with a bypass capacitor. Once this was done, further testing proved that all previous playback issues were resolved.

 

Hopefully this is not the case for everyone using this unit, but if it happens, at least now the cause and solution is known. 

[Wyred 4 Sound]

5 minutes ago, Franatic said:

Hi Tony, E J,

Great job finding the PCM playback issue. I am very grateful for this first class customer support. I can let Singxer know of their issue if you want me to. However, I will ask your advice here because maybe W4S would rather discuss this with Singxer since you found the problem. 

I look forward to trying this great DDC/DAC combo with full functionality. Thank you very much W4S. 

 

Hi Fran, you're very welcome and happy to help you out. In the bigger picture, we were curious to see where the incompatibility you experienced lied and what the root issue was. Now that we've found it and remain confident in our I2S implementation, any further addressing of the issue we'll respectfully leave to the other manufacturer. 

 

Thanks

[Wyred 4 Sound]

10 hours ago, ksalno said:

For those of us who have a Singxer, can you share the type and value of capacitor that you used to correct the problem so that we can apply this fix?

 Hi @ksalno,

 

10pF/25v capacitor.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

On 3/29/2017 at 3:23 AM, jojeong8338 said:

Hi, Good Wednesday~

 

Wyred 4 Sound, many thanks for your update and feedback.

I have heard from Leter of Singxer that some customers tried to I2S connection to W4S DAC with ES9018 through SU-1 with all switch off and worked well.

As long as I know, SU-1 that Franatic sent is not the shipped product from Singxel but the Sound Affairs Plixir Elite BDC power supply modified product for customization.

As W4S reported in above posting, the bypass capacitor as a temporary remedy can affect to the voltage power stability enhancement.

In my humble opinion, I doubt the power supply source level change through LDO and AC-to-DC converter or the difference between ES9018 and ES9038 I2S IO electrical characteristics.

I’m not sure that the original SU-1 has this kind of issue as well.

Anyway, I still look forward to the specialized posting from you as we expects.

 

Best Regards,

Juno

 

 

Just to follow up with this, we believe it was your unit that your dealer had us hold back due to concerns with the Singxer. We included extra caps with your DAC so that the mod could be done on your end.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

17 hours ago, ksalno said:

Thanks for the values. Any particular type of dielectric? 

 Ceramic

[Wyred 4 Sound]

9 minutes ago, Franatic said:

Could you please give any details on the Data line / Pin out that needed the bypass capacitor.

  

It was the word clock input of the differential driver.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

54 minutes ago, Wizzer said:

It's one of three issues , its either the PWT , the Dac or I me ,....

Wizzer, sent you an email.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

1 hour ago, Wizzer said:

Thank you for your reply, I have sent an email to Wyred4sound yesterday . I'm using CD only and yes I tried a Toslink and the same symbol appeared ,..TOS 1 <?>... 

 

That the TOS input on the DAC also displays a <?> symbol suggests it might be your PWT. Let us know what you find out from PS Audio.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

On 4/4/2017 at 7:02 PM, ksalno said:

Ideally, Singxter would issue a fix. However, in lieu of that, I agree more specifics on the capacitor and the pin outs would be appreciated. I ordered a couple different ceramic caps from Mouser but they clearly aren't the right ones, as they were so tiny, I couldn't even see them with 2x magnifying glasses on. No way I could solder them. Can W4S provide a link to the right capacitor and some additional directions for the DIYer?

 

While we can appreciate the impact of this new revelation regarding the Singxer, we feel we should address the issue of providing further support on it. As you know, the reason we felt compelled to look at the Singxer was to see if there was something not working with our own I2S. We determined that was not the case and then proved it by 'fixing' the Singxer so that it worked properly. We were happy to be transparent on the issue and had things gone the other way, we would have hunkered down and looked at what was going on with our I2S.

 

However, now that the matter is closed, please understand that it is not our rightful position to now provide continual support for another company's product. We will happily offer to modify anyone's unit if they would like to send it in at our minimum shop rate of $125/hr. Or you may wish to contact Singxer. 

 

We hope this doesn't come across as hard-lined to anyone, and we do appreciate your understanding.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

1 hour ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

 

While we can appreciate the impact of this new revelation regarding the Singxer, we feel we should address the issue of providing further support on it. As you know, the reason we felt compelled to look at the Singxer was to see if there was something not working with our own I2S. We determined that was not the case and then proved it by 'fixing' the Singxer so that it worked properly. We were happy to be transparent on the issue and had things gone the other way, we would have hunkered down and looked at what was going on with our I2S.

 

However, now that the matter is closed, please understand that it is not our rightful position to now provide continual support for another company's product. We will happily offer to modify anyone's unit if they would like to send it in at our minimum shop rate of $125/hr. Or you may wish to contact Singxer. 

 

We hope this doesn't come across as hard-lined to anyone, and we do appreciate your understanding.

 

Hi all, just for clarification, this post is meant as a general one, not specifically directed to ksalno or any other member. 

[Wyred 4 Sound]

All, we've been looking at this thread from time to time and it's apparent we need to address some things here. Please bear with us -- we've been all-hands on deck preparing for AXPONA this weekend, and unfortunately EJ was in an accident that he is recovering from. We will respond very shortly, hopefully by the end of the week. Please, I implore everyone here to not jump to conclusions about anything until we've had a chance to digest things fully and respond in kind. Thanks for your patience. 

 

As always, we are available by email directly at [email protected].

 

Tony

[Wyred 4 Sound]

@JohnDonaldson and others interested -- In the past, we've partnered with others who have made our USB drivers and firmware. This worked fine for the original project scope and goals, but the flipside is that it's kept our hands tied to their capabilities (and willingness of those parties) to support future, unforeseen implementations not part of the original project.

 

Moving forward, we would like to move away from relying on third parties for these things due to an inevitable bottleneck and lack of adaptability (and sometimes cooperation or availability) on their end, and integrate our own autonomous solutions. This will be a bigger initial challenge for us, but better in the long run to hopefully eliminate situations like these.

 

We're working to make the current circuit operate with Linux in this way. At the same time, we're developing a new solution in-house to have full control. Should we not be able to get the current design working, we'll have two options: 1) to get the new circuit in the DAC, or 2) an upcoming external interface that will also work. Your patience is appreciated, this may take some time.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

The primary differences with the 10th anniversary DAC (besides our spiffy special edition case  ) is that the 10th includes a newly redesigned digital board, Hand-matched custom Vishay Z-Foil resistors, Custom 10th Anniversary lathed aluminum footers, and Custom 10th Anniversary red LED display.  All of which extends the performance slightly above our highly rated DAC-2v2SE model.  

[Wyred 4 Sound]

I am not familiar with the AudiophileOptimizer so I can't give an honest opinion, sorry.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

On 4/8/2018 at 5:17 PM, Franatic said:

This thread appears to be no longer monitored regularly by W4S.

 

I think I remember reading somewhere that the W4S DACs can not be firmware updated by the user via usb. That's a shame as most modern DACs can get firmware updates that way. That means that a firmware update for MQA would be a difficult undertaking involving shipping your DAC to W4S. It also is a reason why it was difficult for them to offer a solution  to the i2s compatibility issue with the SU-1.

 

The W4S i2s protocol and pinout were supposed to be the same as PS Audio, but we found that was not true. Leter at Singxer can sell you an SU-1 at regular price with the capacitor modification and software that fixes the both of the issues. Leter and Minorisuke were very helpful in this endeavor.

You can read the contentious development of the i2s solution here:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31500-i2s-compatibility-issue-between-w4s-dac2-singxer-su-1-two-beatiful-pieces-of-hi-end-products/

 They sound great together............no doubt about it. I can recommend that you contact Leter and get an SU-1 if you want to get the best sound from your W4S DAC.

[email protected] 

Correct that we don't closely monitor this thread but please note the following:

 

DAC upgrades for MQA will require more than a firmware update  - it will also require hardware unless it can be implemented in the USB interface itself and at that time, that can be USB updated but not the front panel firmware of the DAC.

 

We originally designed the I2S for our DAC to be used with our own music servers and modded components we offered at the time. It also was compatible with PS audio before DSD was implemented where the lines are now multiplexed for DSD and cause the phase issue as noted before.

 

We can only do so much to make sure our unit works well with gear others design after the release of ours but once we heard about this - with your help - we were eager to learn about what we could to to make it work and did. In the near future, we will release such product in our line to properly work with our gear right out of the box.

 

Thank you

EJ