Oh Look, A New USB Cable Thread

[Hierge]

I don't disagree but my point is that looking for USB certified cables will not guarantee 90ohms - the cables have to be independently tested.

 

Also, when you look at pcb traces & the measures needed to ensure 90ohm impedance, I have some problem in believing that a flexible cable carrying 4 wires will be within a close enough tolerance throughout it's length considering how it can be bent or twisted.

 

I have a Supra cable too & it does sound better than my Wireworld one although looking at the structure of each, I would imagine that the flat Wireworld should be easier to maintain 90ohms impedance throughout it's length than the flexible, round, bulging Supra cable. Do you see what I mean?

Supra literature claims it maintains 90 ohms the entire length. I guess I just take their word and reputation. Independent listening tests rate Supra just behind the exotic Ferrari cables. I'm not informed enough on flexibility. I'd be inclined to think overkill is reached on that front but I may be wrong.

[mmerrill99]

mmerrell99: Enjoyed your last few posts on the matter, including the link you referenced. We just got John Swenson set up with an unusual type of scope capable of doing eye-pattern testing in a different way--one that may reveal more than traditional eye-patern sweeps. So maybe he will uncover some relevant information which reveals more about what is going on--possibly pointing the way towards more ideal USB cable design. No promises, but we hope that some of what he has been talking about elsewhere can be corroborated with both measurements and what we hear.

(Also, I just posted in one of the REGEN threads about an idea John had for an ideal USB non-cable; quite relevant to this discussion.)

Thanks Alex - somehow I'm not getting notifications of posts so I missed this.

Yes, that link I thought was particularly relevant to the Regen

 

I had similar thoughts as John & yourself about the best short but flexible USB connector - a flexi pcb

I'm sure you have also have considered these flexible adapters - Lindy 70339 - I don't know, given their structure, how close & consistent they are to 90ohm characteristic impedance?

Perhaps the new scope can sort out some of these questions?

 

I would be interested in hearing your & John's thoughts on how truly balanced the differential USB lines D+ & D- are in the USB PHY devices? If they aren't then aiming for an exact 90 ohms is somewhat uneeded

[mmerrill99]

Supra literature claims it maintains 90 ohms the entire length. I guess I just take their word and reputation. Independent listening tests rate Supra just behind the exotic Ferrari cables. I'm not informed enough on flexibility. I'd be inclined to think overkill is reached on that front but I may be wrong.

I guess we all do that!

[Hierge]

Thanks Alex - somehow I'm not getting notifications of posts so I missed this.

Yes, that link I thought was particularly relevant to the Regen

 

I had similar thoughts as John & yourself about the best short but flexible USB connector - a flexi pcb

I'm sure you have also have considered these flexible adapters - Lindy 70339 - I don't know, given their structure, how close & consistent they are to 90ohm characteristic impedance?

Perhaps the new scope can sort out some of these questions?

 

I would be interested in hearing your & John's thoughts on how truly balanced the differential USB lines D+ & D- are in the USB PHY devices? If they aren't then aiming for an exact 90 ohms is somewhat uneeded

 

I'm no true expert on this, but I'd parrot what Gordon Rankin wrote on this regarding 90 ohm being the most important factor. I'd add to this John Swenson's quote "get a Supra and be done with it" as a pretty strong suggestion on this matter. No need to get too carried away with this is the point I'm taking with this. I've listened to enough delta regarding playback software where I'd point anyone in this direction more than any hardware. Everyone needs to follow one's own heart though. I found a big difference with all my USB cables. The Supra being truly better.

 

I learned at the feet at of an audio giant at Myer Emco to trust technology and your ears most importantly.

[Hierge]

I guess we all do that!

 

Cheers mate!

[barrows]

Just got the mapleshade plus. Initial thoughts are that it does sound slightly different than the cable that came with it, but also more compressed. I'm not sure if I'd call it better or worse after about 10 seconds of one song. I didn't want to get too used to the sound because I want to ensure any supposed break in is not due to ear brain adjustment. I'll let it play for 24 hrs before any critical listening.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The best way to do listening tests and avoid "(getting) used to the sound" type of subjective evaluation problems is this: Have a known reference cable which you are used to. Put in the new cable and listen and make notes on the differences you subjectively hear vs. the old cable to which you are familiar. Now, keep the new cable in place and allow it to burn in (or "settle" if you prefer), and keep listening. Once sufficient time has passed for complete break in, play your reference tracks, and then switch back to the original cable for another comparison, make notes again and compare them. By reverting back to the known (familiar) reference you correct for the "(getting) used to" factor, as the known reference remains a constant.

Often the best evaluation of a new system element happens when you remove that element from the system after prolonged listening and revert to the previous element: this method corrects for the phenomena which you are concerned about.

[ginetto61]

... This is consistent with their philosophy that ... in the particular case of USB cables, that the signal and power should be allowed to have a little room rather than being bound together in close proximity.....

 

Hi have you already tried a data only cable ?

given that you use the Regen this will provide the power to the dac, if needed.

In this case there will not be any power wires to speak of.

Personally i think that a shielded mic cable of the right impedance terminated with quality usb connectors would be a perfect data only USB cable.

I wonder why no-one has thought about this.

Many usb dac do not need usb power at all and the ones that need it are better served with usb power supplies or device like the Regen, i think.

Regards, gino

[moophone]

This is my plan. I will listen at 50, 100, and 200 hours then make a decision.

 

Hopefully things change, somewhat significantly, because right now there is nothing in this cable I would consider an "upgrade" over stock (with zero break-in)

 

Greg

 

Give it 50 hours before expecting it to sound different, 100 before expecting it to give hints of the final sound, 200 before listening to start forming a final opinion.

 

On the other hand, "compressed" is the last term I'd use to describe how the Clearlink sounded in my system, even from the beginning, so perhaps its character will be quite different in yours.

[wwaldmanfan]

I believe that different cables can sound different from each other, but by what mechanism does the sound of one cable audibly improve after 50, 100, 200 hours of use? I would expect speakers to require break in, and some electronics, but a cable is just a piece of wire.

[barrows]

I believe that different cables can sound different from each other, but by what mechanism does the sound of one cable audibly improve after 50, 100, 200 hours of use? I would expect speakers to require break in, and some electronics, but a cable is just a piece of wire.

 

Possibly: dialectric in the cable needs to be biased by signal (this is the theory behind Audioquest's active bias system), also, some speculate that the crystalline structure of the wire itself may change when subject to current over time, allowing for easier "movement" of electrons and less noise generation due to less electron collisions with crystalline barriers. Consider, that electron movement in a metal is a particle with mass, moving about, in a structure; once one accepts the physical/mechanical nature of what goes on in (and around) a wire as current passes, it is easier to accept that similar mechanical (on a very small scale) properties, as in a speaker on a larger scale, apply to current passing through a wire.

[moophone]

See Audioquest's explanation here: here

 

Personally, I don't believe in it, but I'm keeping an open mind and following the mfr's recommendations.

 

 

I believe that different cables can sound different from each other, but by what mechanism does the sound of one cable audibly improve after 50, 100, 200 hours of use? I would expect speakers to require break in, and some electronics, but a cable is just a piece of wire.

[Superdad]

Personally i think that a shielded mic cable of the right impedance terminated with quality usb connectors would be a perfect data only USB cable.

I wonder why no-one has thought about this.

 

Because you will be hard-pressed to find 90 ohm mic cable!

[moophone]

So at 50 hours of "break-in" my conclusion is that after having my wife switch cables A/B between the mapleshade and stock USB cable, I can hear no significant difference between the two. Sometimes I think the mapleshade has a bit more "bloom" but I'm pretty sure its just program material. I'm planning a blind ABX with the wife switching at 200 hours to formally conclude the results. I'll repeat with her listening.

 

Anyway, this is interesting because at zero hours, the mapleshade sounded to me, lacking in lower mid-range warmth and seemed a bit thin and less resolving compared to the stock cable.

 

This comparison at zero hours was less formal, so I can't say for sure there was any difference, but I was "pretty sure" there was.

 

So as of 50hrs the stock cable and this one sound the same. If my initial observations were correct then the cable's sound signature has changed and will be interesting to see what happens at 100 hours. Otherwise there is no difference, and never has been.

 

Next step, 100 hours.

[ginetto61]

Because you will be hard-pressed to find 90 ohm mic cable!

 

Hi

and we can be confident that the boutique cables are precisely 90 ohm ?

just asking i do not know. I think that this impedance issue is true anyway.

At the point that i would be very interested to see some impedance measurements.

Found this googling ...

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/805561-belden-9182-89182-9207-89207-a.html

 

If you're into making USB cables for audio you'll be interested (surprised) to hear that both certified USB 2.0 cables I checked had characteristic impedance higher than the 90 ohms (+/- 15) specified in the USB spec. They measured 110 ohms and 125 ohms! It probably doesn't matter much but you'd expect certified USB cables to be within spec. It seems like the manufacturers just use whatever they want. I have found some really good USB cable sold to the military/aerospace industry which must be strictly 90 ohm but that turned out to be about 13usd a FOOT..

 

Incidentally 110 ohm is the impedance of AES/EBU cable ... not very far from 90

But looking at the datasheet some lower Z mic cable can be found i guess

Thanks, gino

[Superdad]

Hi

and we can be confident that the boutique cables are precisely 90 ohm ?

just asking i do not know. I think that this impedance issue is true anyway.

At the point that i would be very interested to see some impedance measurements.

Found this googling ...

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/805561-belden-9182-89182-9207-89207-a.html

 

 

 

Incidentally 110 ohm is the impedance of AES/EBU cable ... not very far from 90

But looking at the datasheet some lower Z mic cable can be found i guess

Thanks, gino

 

 

Indeed. However, the catalog of Supra (Jenving in Sweden)--a pretty sophisticated wire house--lists derailed technical specs for all their cables, and their USB is stated to be 90 ohms.

 

Also, I am pretty sure that the military/aerospace cable being referred to in the Gearslutz quote is the Wirenetics Teflon wire that I got a 1 meter sample of last year and terminated. Sadly, it was not wonderful sounding and I still prefer the Supra.

 

[Hierge]

Indeed. However, the catalog of Supra (Jenving in Sweden)--a pretty sophisticated wire house--lists derailed technical specs for all their cables, and their USB is stated to be 90 ohms.

 

Also, I am pretty sure that the military/aerospace cable being referred to in the Gearslutz quote is the Wirenetics Teflon wire that I got a 1 meter sample of last year and terminated. Sadly, it was not wonderful sounding and I still prefer the Supra.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18901[/ATTACH]

 

I concur on Supra. Very happy with mine.

[Superdad]

I concur on Supra. Very happy with mine.

 

Just to be clear, that pic is of the Wirenetics that I made up from the sample length the factory sent me. I'll take another listen to it when I have a chance.

 

AJC.

[Hierge]

Just to be clear, that pic is of the Wirenetics that I made up from the sample length the factory sent me. I'll take another listen to it when I have a chance.

 

AJC.

It's good that you still listen to other cables for reference. I took sage advice from J. Swenson who said to just get a Supra and "be done with it." I did and am done with it. Looking forward to the day where USB audio is like having cassette tapes.

[sandyk]

Looking forward to the day where USB audio is like having cassette tapes.

 

You must have forgotten the marked differences between the various formulation cassette tapes through a good cassette deck .

[ginetto61]

Indeed. However, the catalog of Supra (Jenving in Sweden)--a pretty sophisticated wire house--lists derailed technical specs for all their cables, and their USB is stated to be 90 ohms.

Also, I am pretty sure that the military/aerospace cable being referred to in the Gearslutz quote is the Wirenetics Teflon wire that I got a 1 meter sample of last year and terminated. Sadly, it was not wonderful sounding and I still prefer the Supra...

 

Hi ! thanks for the valuable advice.

I had the hope that usb were much easier. Now i understand that cables make a difference, there can be jitter also on usb, better to use a regenerator ... this digital is easy to store but very difficult to playback properly.

Anyway i have decided to stay digital ...

Thanks a lot again, gino

[barrows]

So at 50 hours of "break-in" my conclusion is that after having my wife switch cables A/B between the mapleshade and stock USB cable, I can hear no significant difference between the two. Sometimes I think the mapleshade has a bit more "bloom" but I'm pretty sure its just program material. I'm planning a blind ABX with the wife switching at 200 hours to formally conclude the results. I'll repeat with her listening.

 

Anyway, this is interesting because at zero hours, the mapleshade sounded to me, lacking in lower mid-range warmth and seemed a bit thin and less resolving compared to the stock cable.

 

This comparison at zero hours was less formal, so I can't say for sure there was any difference, but I was "pretty sure" there was.

 

So as of 50hrs the stock cable and this one sound the same. If my initial observations were correct then the cable's sound signature has changed and will be interesting to see what happens at 100 hours. Otherwise there is no difference, and never has been.

 

Next step, 100 hours.

 

Please provide system info to add relevant context to your observations. Source, DAC, Pre/Amp, Speakers.

[barrows]

You must have forgotten the marked differences between the various formulation cassette tapes through a good cassette deck .

 

hahaha! and clean tape heads, with "perfect" alignment, a capstan which is actually concentrically round, etc, etc, etc!

[Jud]

You must have forgotten the marked differences between the various formulation cassette tapes through a good cassette deck .

 

hahaha! and clean tape heads, with "perfect" alignment, a capstan which is actually concentrically round, etc, etc, etc!

 

The Sony Metal Master ceramics were the ones I used.

[k6davis]

I'm a happy owner of the Mapleshade USB cable. I ordered a Supra after reading that it paired very well with the Regen.

 

I plugged in the Supra cable and let it break in 24/7 for several days. I prefer the Mapleshade, and by a significant margin. In fact, I prefer the Mapleshade to any USB cable I've tried - which admittedly is very few.

 

In addition to the Mapleshade, I've tried generic cables as a baseline, the Audioquest Diamond, and now the Supra. The Mapleshade outperformed the others. The improvements it makes in transparency, soundstaging and ease aren't subtle. I consider it an integral part of my system.

 

I don't mean to make any absolute claims of one cable's superiority over another. I'm just sharing my experience. These evaluations are hugely dependent on system abilities, system synergies and personal preferences. I'll keep the Supra until my Regen arrives (in the June 18th batch) and evaluate it against the Mapleshade in that context.

[Guidof]

Recently, I had to replace my 1.0 meter USB cable with a longer (4.0 meter) run due to a change in hardware location. I took John Swenson's recommendation for Supra and I'm happy to report that it is an excellent cable indeed.

 

Compared to my previous Audioquest Cinnamon cable, the Supra sounds more spacious, and more important, it has a more balanced frequency distribution, especially at both ends of the spectrum. Bass is fuller. High frequencies are more extended yet are remarkably free of shrillness (unless present in the recording). And, at $76.00 for a 4.0 meter run, this is a reasonably priced cable.

 

Many thanks to John S. for his recommendation, which very nicely complements the benefits of the Uptone REGEN.