Vinyl -> Digital

[larryb]

I have about 500 vinyl discs, and I would like to get some small part of it into digital. I don't want to "improve" the recordings, just listen to them in my car and ipod. Plugging into my macbook pro's onboard sound circuitry cannot be the right thing to do. Suggestions for a reasonable ADC solution?

 

[AudioDoctor]

How much is reasonable to you?

 

[souptin]

It's quite a big undertaking to digitise vinyl, even more so if you want to split them up into individual tracks and tag the files.

 

Of course, some records are very hard to find in CD format, and sometimes the new remastered CDs sound nowhere near as good as a much loved vinyl version.

 

[Akapod]

You might consider something like Apogee's Duet Two and Pure Vinyl, by the makers of Pure Music.

 

I've digitized vinyl, and it is truly a pain. But it is definitely worthwhile when it's the only alternative.

 

[HiFiInsider]

Another vote for Duet 2. I would transfer to 16/44 MAX because your iPod can't play anything higher unless you are using iPhone or iPod Touch or iPad.

 

[Akapod]

The newest version of iTunes, 10.6, includes a feature which will load 255 Kbps versions of songs into iOS devices, so you don't need to worry about being able to play your music. Yes, it's lossy, but we're not talking about using external DACs and the like here.

 

You will want to rip the vinyl at the highest possible sample rate and word length, as this is your one chance to get it right. You will not want to re-rip your vinyl. Ripping at the highest quality will provide you with the best material should you decide to "re-master" your vinyl. And I bet that that a 24/96 iOS device is only a couple of years away.

 

 

[JohnMH]

First post, but I've been lurking and learning for a while. While not an Apple compatible solution, I had good success first try with an EMU 1616M audio interface on a Windows XP laptop. The EMU is not new - perhaps 2005 vintage. It has phono inputs and decent Burr Brown ADC and DAC and will encode and play up to 24/192 PCM digital. These can be had for less than $500 lately. EMU recently updated drivers for Windows 7 and I was able to get a PCIe interface for my newer computer. The original interface was for a PCMCIA notebook slot. The EMU 1616M uses ASIO between the computer and the outboard unit which contains all the analogue I/O - mic & line level inputs, RCA phono inputs & line level outputs for up to 5.1 surround.

 

A quick google search for "audio interface with phono input" turns up a number of products that will work with Apple computers. I think I saw a Behringer USB audio interface for $30 with phono and line level inputs. There are a number of USB interface options. They don't seem to go to the higher sampling rates, but if you are primarily ripping for portable use that may not be an issue for you. Some would argue that ripping vinyl at higher bit rates is of questionable benefit anyway due to the inherent limitations of vinyl. Others would want to archive to the highest possible resolution then down-convert to burn CDs or use on portable devices.

 

Good luck. It is kind of tedious, but if you're cleaning and playing vinyl anyway, might as well get a digital copy at the same time. I'll be trying it again with my newer computer and will have to try making some 24/192 files out of vinyl just for kicks.

 

[AudioDoctor]

it is not a fast or easy process, and to get it right will take some trial and error as well as a good A>D stage. I use an RME Fireface 400 which sold for about $1500 US. I then use Pure Vinyl Software http://www.channld.com/purevinyl/ that sells for $279 US. That is on top of the vinyl playback equipment, turntable, phono amp, cartridge, etc... I also highly recommend a Record Cleaning Machine to get the vinyl LP as clean as possible before digitizing it to minimize the clicks and pops you will be tempted to remove with the "click and pop" remover.

 

Done right it can sound amazing.

 

[wally gator]

Hello Larryb,

I can tell you that I heard the author of the Pure Vinyl program do a demo in the audio show last summer in NYC. He played a very good vinyl lp on an excellent lp rig an output to the amazing Joseph audio monitor speakers...sounded great. He then played the same lp in digital format thru a Mac. The digital copy of the lp sounded better...He used his Pure vinyl software for the conversion process...and yes I still(or until that point) preferred the analogue sound of a good lp playback system. I was impressed to the point of almost telling my wife we could eventually get rid of the 4000 plus lps' I have. Thought better of that move...

 

My next digital learning exercise will be the Pure vinyl software/lp conversion project.

 

Wally

 

 

[larryb]

I knew I was coming to the right place. I am digitizing mostly classical lps from the 50s and 60s. Many have not (to my knowledge) been remastered on CDs, and even so, the last thing I want is more disks. And I know how much work I'm getting into --- I just put all the tracks into a database. I would like to keep equipment purchases under 750 (and am happy to buy something used). Of course I already have a turntable and phono preamp. My immediate problem (I think) is an ADC.

 

[dummy]

I had a few records to digitize last year so I bought a 99$ ION USB turntable at BestBuy.

 

Granted, the thing is really cheap and cheaply made but It worked. It comes with Audacity software that works with iTunes only. Once I got how the software worked, everything was really smooth and easy.

 

It might not be the highest sound around and I didn't even clean or took care of my old childhood LPs but the whole process was painless. And It worked.

 

I must admit that even though my LPs aren't in great condition and the ION is cheap, apart from the crackles here and there, the sound often rivals CDs. Theres that vinyl warmth and "human" quality that shines through. I can only imagine with a good turntable and a good ADC at 24/96 and with good clean vinyls what it might sound like.

 

If you already have a turntable, I think ION makes a RCA to USB adaptor for like 30$... That's my 02 cents.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

is that you don't necessarily need the Phono Amp in the chain as long as you can plug your table into something that can bring the signal up to a line level, such as the mic inputs on the RME. Pure Vinyl can do the RIAA in software and it is quite good. Doing that requires a very high quality gain stage so you do not add noise into the signal. I have no idea what the Fireface sells for used, but IMO it is worth checking on.

 

[Daudio]

 

 

"I am digitizing mostly classical lps from the 50s and 60s. Many have not (to my knowledge) been remastered on CDs"

 

If some those LPs are RCA Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, Decca or Columbia issues, they could be very excellent recording due to their simple, but sophisticated recording techniques, and would be well worth going the extra mile in your digitization efforts.

 

Also a number of them are recently available in CD box set

 

 

[jhstn58]

What is the recording frequency limit of an LP? I am digitizing a couple of albums so I can listen to them on my iPod. Using Audacity, I notice that, no matter what sample rate I select (44,000, 48,100 or 96,000), the recorded frequency of the LP remains the same, maxing out at 22kHz. I realize this is the limit of human hearing, but is there any advantage to using a higher sample rate if the recorded frequency remains 22kHz? I thought that LPs included frequencies above 22kHz, thereby making it possible to record those frequencies using a higher sample rate.

 

Am I confused? Almost certainly. But am I wrong in thinking that I should be able to record higher frequencies?

 

 

 

[ronfint]

Here is a plot from a bit of the track 'Eat for Two' from the 10,000 Maniac's "Blind Man's Zoo". I chose it because I've digitized it recently. I forgot how to post a picture, but here is a link:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~ronfint/AudacityPlot.png

 

I'm not seeing the frequency limitation that you talk about, but I haven't followed the posts with Audacity plots, and I'm not sure that I'm reading this data correctly.

 

 

Ron

 

[AudioDoctor]

not sure what you are doing wrong, I have never used Audacity to record my vinyl. There certainly are frequencies above 22khz. Are you absolutely positive you are recording at a sample rate above 44.1khz? I ask because it is my understanding that recording at 44.1khz would indeed create a steep cut off at 22khz, just as you describe.

 

[ronfint]

my recording is at 24 bit, 192 kHz. It was done with the recording function of a ULN-8. I just used Audacity to get the plot. I was responding to the doubt expressed below that an LP actually carried higher frequencies.

 

Ron

 

[AudioDoctor]

I see that you are replying to me as if my reply was to you. My reply was to the person having the problems...

 

[larryb]

Several people have recommended the Apogee Duet 2. In the same price category I've heard about the RME Babyface (interesting branding concept there), the MOTU Ultralight and the Avid Pro Tools Mbox Pro. Any thoughts?

 

By the way, a lot of my lps are old RCA's and Mercury's. And Daudio is right, these have a great sound. Many too are Supraphon, Orbis (not the Belgian label that does lots of techno, etc.) and other obscure (to me) labels: Bluebell? Bastei? Hörzu?

 

[AudioDoctor]

but given that experience, I feel confident in suggesting the babyface.

 

[tomE]

If you can find a used Korg MR1000 it might fit your budget. They go for around $1k new. I've used mine to digitize a few of my LPs and it works well. I will do more but the process as described by others is a pain.

 

Tom

 

[chrisg3]

Larryb, I assume you have turntable and phonostage, will elaborate on that later.

1. I do digitizing in 16/44 LPCM resolution using Sony HiMD Minidisk set to auto recording level. I am die-hard minidisk fan and have 2 of them in perfect working order. AD-DA conversion and digital amps in last 2 generations of Minidiscs are very good quality. Setting auto recording level speeds up whole process, I don’t need to look for music peeks, etc. to set recording level manually. Most importantly it doesn’t kill emotion and soul in the music for me, I can live with it.

2. Transfer wav files from minidisk to win 7/64 via Sony Sonicstage software (software is free with minidisc recorder).

3. Declick with Click Repair http://www.clickrepair.net/software_download/clickrepair.html . This is superb clicks remover, downside –paid software. I am sure there are plenty free alternatives if you google it.

4. Import wave files into Audacity for track splitting (optional - if time permits)

5. Transfer digitized uncompressed wav files to iphone 4 using iTunes. Results are very good imho. Despite "only" cd quality, warmths and "feel" of vinyl is still preserved.

To me turntable/arm & cartidge/phonostage are very important. It is somewhat similar to digital photography. Quality of lens is probably as important if not more important than resolution quality of cmos sensor.

I also have Sony PCM-M10 digital handheld recorder and EMU 0404 usb interface (each 200-300 $ range). They can record up to 24/96 from line-in inputs. EMU can do even 24/192. Have them for good couple of monts now. Unfortunately, due to quite hectic work schedule, no time to try them yet. I also heard on different forums RME interfaces are very good.

I have feeling LP digitizing to a device (recorder) might be a faster and easier process while recording via interface to computer gives more control over digitizing/recording process.

Will post more finding when finally will get to it again

 

 

[Eisenmac]

I purchased the TC Impact Twin firewire recording interface a month ago to replace an aging Focusrite Saffite. The TC records up to 24/192 and it also supports playing up to 24/192 files from my Mac Mini. It is designed as a recording interface but makes an excellent computer DAC at a reasonable price. It competes in price with Apogee Duet or Duet II but can be found for less money. The headphone amp in it is also quite good and has plenty of gain for most headphones. My trusty Sennheiser 580s sound excellent driven by it. So here's another one to consider in your hunt. I too have a lot of vinyl I would like to digitize but as everybody says, it is quite labor intensive to do it correctly. In the past I've used my Alesis Masterlink to do this job and it works great. It's a self contained recording, mixing, mastering and CD burning machine. Still an excellent choice for many applications and oftentimes much simpler than working on my computer. Guess it gets down to what you know and what you're comfortable with using. Just read the comment about MiniDisk and I too used my Sony MD quite a lot until recently. I've owned about every type of recording gear starting with a Sony 366 reel to reel I bought in 1972. Still have several Dat decks around the house and I won't let go of my Nakamichi ZX-9 cassette recorder. Good luck with your search for the right solution for you.

 

[jhstn58]

Yes, I'm recording musicforthemorningafter as I type and it is clearly recording at 96,000. The fact that it is cutting off at exactly half the 44kHz sample rate has me scratching my head as well. I'm recording from the Furutech GT40 USB DAC, which supports the 96KHz recording resolution, so I know it's not that.

 

Is it possible my USB cable is the culprit?

 

[chrisg3]

jhstn58,

 

The way I understand your post is: if your dac has 96 kHz sampling rate, max theoretical frequency response at dac output will be 48 kHz which is half of the sampling rate, according to Nyquist theorem.

In fact it can be less than that, depending on actual frequencies present and captured during recording session.

On the other hand max frequencies which can be retrieved from vinyl record depend also on quality of pickup system. They can approach 40 kHz for very best cartridges (speaking under correction).