Budget Basement Stereo

Thanks for the article Bob. As always, I like your style, not only because it's very different from mine, but I understand a bit of where you're coming from because you put little nuggets into the article. 

Two things stand out to me most, 1) Your sentence "I have been visiting the local stores, surfing the net, networking, and having loads of fun." This is what it's all about. The fun part. That's why we are in this hobby. And 2) Your paragraph starting with "Arcam, can you test your software a bit more?" and ending with "Sending folks to a community on the internet for support is very “mod” but unsatisfying for many customers." was a valuable honest take on your experience. It's this stuff that people won't find on a spec sheet. You only come to this conclusion after using the components. 

Chris,

Thank you for your kind thoughts.  I need to elaborate more on the support thing; the SA30 support forum is "unofficial."  What bothers me is that we need it.  The SA30 is a pretty complex component hiding in an Integrated Amplifier box.   I have not even tried to play with DIRAC yet.  There is a lot to learn in there.  

I may actually play with a subwoofer after I get my headphone setup nailed.

I had to smile when I sore the pictures of the ARCAM feet and read the associated text. I have owned (and very much enjoyed) ARCAM equipment for close to 25 years now. In that time I have owned (to the best of my recollection) 3 CD players*,  2 power amps (ARCAM Alpha 10P 3's- which I still use to power 2 small systems in my office at work and my home office,) and 4 AVR amps - including my current AVR850.

On every single one of these, the feet came off / broke each and every time I moved them. The first time, I contacted ARCAM and then, very kindly, sent me some replacement clips at no cost; but these failed as well. I then moved on to a combination of glue and / or double stick tape. Now-a-days I just sit the units carefully on the feet and let gravity do the work. 😃

**In fairness the CD players didn't use the type of feet pictured in the article, but rather little rubber pads - which also fell off!!

Thank you for an enjoyable article. I enjoyed your writing style.

I have never understood why some vendors do not understand that feet are essential.  Or that sharp edges cut people.

I am very happy you enjoyed the article.

1 minute ago, bobfa said:

I have never understood why some vendors do not get those feet are essential.  Or that sharp edges cut people.

 

Agree 100%. 

Bob, since this is a “bargain basement stereo” article, I think you should share what you paid for each component so readers can decide for themselves just how bargain basement your new system really is!

Thanks for sharing. JCR WBOESD

I stated in the top of the article that this was a barter deal.  Time and some materials on another project! Everyone is happy.

 I am purchasing the Gaia III isolators.

RJF

Quote

Sonically they are excellent if fed well.  They are picky and get shouty at higher volumes.  The soundstage is precise and small-ish.  Yet, they have stood the test of time, and I enjoy them!  This makes me want to hear what Reference 3a has done in the intervening years.

These are the usual symptoms of speakers which don't have enough effective mass stabilising the cabinet - what I would do is place a flat platform of the highest mass I could muster, under each speaker; and then couple its four corners to that mass. This is the easiest, and fastest way to 'biggify' the sound, IME - the vibration of the cabinet, which is what wrecks the SQ, is transferred to the much greater, inert mass below it.

Frank,  That is interesting.  I am thinking about putting a 5lb bag of sugar on top each one to play!  Or maybe sandbags from light stands...  Just as a test.

I have been playing with my Roon Server and I am trying that tonight direct to the SA30..  I am also adding removable mass to the speakers.  

I am looking around for the “Darko Door Stops” to try them.  I could get three of the smaller ones up there.  About 7 3/4 lbs

20 hours ago, bobfa said:

Frank,  That is interesting.  I am thinking about putting a 5lb bag of sugar on top each one to play!  Or maybe sandbags from light stands...  Just as a test.

 

Yes, it's very worth while investigating this, IME - I would suggest that one can go quite silly with the weight, just to see what difference it makes. In my own efforts, I put on a total mass far greater than I can lift; steadily increasing it until it doesn't appear to improve things.

One tip: be very careful about adding anything metallic to do this; it disturbs the electrical environment, if too close to the drivers, etc, I've found - degrading the SQ.

It is better to have weight in the bottom of the speaker cabinet (not many allow this, but I have ones that do), it makes it less prone to wobble and plants the speaker to the floor better. As far as Frank saying metal interferes, well then, the other diver (or driver's if 3 way or more) the driver frame should interfere than, same with the magnet(s) from the other speaker driver(s).

Whether the weight is on the bottom or top of the speaker wouldn't be as relevant as how how well the overall addition of mass does the job of stabilising the cabinet; whichever is more convenient, to do tests with, would be my first consideration - I have done the job with mass top and/or bottom, over the years.

A high mass of metal near a, treble, driver has caused a loss of quality for me - other people's experiences may vary.

40 minutes ago, botrytis said:

It is better to have weight in the bottom of the speaker cabinet (not many allow this, but I have ones that do), it makes it less prone to wobble and plants the speaker to the floor better. As far as Frank saying metal interferes, well then, the other diver (or driver's if 3 way or more) the driver frame should interfere than, same with the magnet(s) from the other speaker driver(s).

 

   Adding mass to a cone of the driver changes physical parameters. Adding mass on top, based on my understanding of physics (medium understanding), will not really affect the sound because of the weight but because it extends the panel and changes the frequency response of the speaker. 

The speakers are Reference 3a Veena from 2006.  They have three feet.  I am going to try bricks on top and see what happens. 

As a thought experiment, consider the drivers being suspended from pieces of string attached to the ceiling, so that they match the position as they would on the front of a cabinet - no actual cabinet actually used. As compared to being inserted, and locked solidly into a huge, flat rock face, in the same arrangement. And drive them hard, with music. In the former, the frames of the drivers would happily flop around, constantly reacting to the force of the magnets and varying coil currents. In the latter, the frames are locked solid with respect to the space in which they are situated - something like a Wilson speaker is aiming for this sort of rigidity; which immediately gives them, "authority".

So, the aim is to get as far away from the "strings from the ceiling" scenario as possible; the lighter the weight of the cabinet, and the taller it is, the more likely there will be too much spurious movement of the driver frames.

8 minutes ago, fas42 said:

As a thought experiment, consider the drivers being suspended from pieces of string attached to the ceiling, so that they match the position as they would on the front of a cabinet - no actual cabinet actually used. As compared to being inserted, and locked solidly into a huge, flat rock face, in the same arrangement. And drive them hard, with music. In the former, the frames of the drivers would happily flop around, constantly reacting to the force of the magnets and varying coil currents. In the latter, the frames are locked solid with respect to the space in which they are situated - something like a Wilson speaker is aiming for this sort of rigidity; which immediately gives them, "authority".

 

So, the aim is to get as far away from the "strings from the ceiling" scenario as possible; the lighter the weight of the cabinet, and the taller it is, the more likely there will be too much spurious movement of the driver frames.

I’m not so sure this reasoning is correct. 
 

It’s possible to get pistonic driver movement through clever engineering rather than the brute force method of granite speaker cabinets. In addition, many dense enclosures are designed this way to control resonance/vibration. 

32 minutes ago, bobfa said:

The speakers are Reference 3a Veena from 2006.  They have three feet.  I am going to try bricks on top and see what happens. 

How is the SQ of the SA30 compared to the Pi's?

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m not so sure this reasoning is correct. 
 

It’s possible to get pistonic driver movement through clever engineering rather than the brute force method of granite speaker cabinets. In addition, many dense enclosures are designed this way to control resonance/vibration. 

The diaphragm of the driver will move correctly with respect to the magnetic structure which is embedded in the frame of the driver, to the quality level of the engineering that went into the design. But if the frame, and hence the magnet is allowed to vibrate, depending upon the rigidity of the baffle, or other mounting, or lack of it, then there is a high possibility of intermodulation distortion. That's all I'm saying here ...

Yes, the controlling of resonance/vibration is the answer. But if the manufacturer hasn't done as much as is possible, because of wanting to sell that model at a sensible price, then there is nothing to stop the consumer adding further control measures.

5 minutes ago, fas42 said:

But if the manufacturer hasn't done as much as is possible, because of wanting to sell that model at a sensible price, then there is nothing to stop the consumer adding further control measures.

Absolutely. 
 

Speaker cabinets are where the costs are sunk. 

52 minutes ago, Rexp said:

How is the SQ of the SA30 compared to the Pi's?

Still under study.  

@bobfa Are these a similar to 3A de Capo's? I assume, bad to do at times. because the de Capos do not use a crossover but use the natural roll off of the drivers as the crossover. That is harder to do, as the drivers have to be matched carefully but sometimes can sound a little odd, since there is not filter really.

i think the 3A does that on several models including the ones I have.  They are a very nice speaker.

Interesting - that is what also makes these speakers more expensive - all the testing, etc. to get the drivers just right.