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  • Gilbert Klein
    Gilbert Klein

    The Music In Me: Rap of History Backwards The

    A Warning:

    The last two songs in this article might offend some people, so keep that in mind if you’re playing it in a public space— Gilbert.

     

    An Introduction:

    Look, I know I know too little about this subject to say I’m an expert, so I’m not. I’m not going to opine on the form or its practitioners, proponents, prophets or phans. (Sorry, I just had to do that. You get it, with the phat thing, right?) I know there must be rap artists who are soulful more than angry, and I know some people are making beautiful music that’s called rap or hip-hop, and I’m sorry but I must conflate the two. I don’t know about it or the scene, and I don’t have to, because I only want to tell you about the first rap song that I heard, and do a little history. I like a little history. I’ll bet there isn’t a rock fan out there who doesn’t know who Chuck Berry is and his music, but I’d bet there aren’t many rap fans who know who Gil Scott-Heron is. But first, the history, and I’ll ask you to keep in mind that in the entertainment industry, innovation is quickly replicated and exploited.

     

    The History:

    Oh, I am so not the right guy to expound on the history of rap. But I heard a few lines from a song I hadn’t heard in years, see, and it made me think about it. And I have this column, see? I’m telling you now I’m no expert. I’m just a guy. Okay, a guy with a column. Like a lot of old people, I don’t get rap music. I didn’t get it when it started and I’m probably too old now; I ignore it now because when it first broke big, I just didn’t like it. There was too much violence, too many gats, glocks and putting a cap in someone’s ass. It all seemed to be swagger about n--gers, bitches, blunts and bling. I understood anti-social sentiment, honest- I’ve enjoyed a bit of it myself in my youth, but where was the music? Suddenly everyone was clever for stealing using bits from other people’s music. That didn’t used to be cool in the 60’s, man. I appreciated the innovation, but I just didn’t find the music in there. Okay, if melody was going to be subverted by cleverness, I gave it a listen, but what I was hearing just seemed… angry. I understood the anger coming out of urban, less privileged areas like Brooklyn, the Bronx and lower Manhattan. I got that. I got why it was coming from places like Compton. But I missed melody, you know?

     

    So rap sells a lot of music and is one of our most popular music forms. But nothing comes from out of a vacuum, so where did it come from? First, let’s look at the word “rap.” Yeah, it’s a bad thing if it refers to a criminal charge, but that wasn’t what it meant when we used it back in the mid-Sixties. It came from “rapport” and it usually meant that you were under the influence of the demon drug, marijuana. It just meant someone went on a talking jag. Logorrhea, as it were. Could have been about someone on meth, but it came out of the pot community. People got stoned and went off on verbal tangents, sometimes seemingly endlessly. It was kind of a joke, you know, when a guy looked around him and realized he’d been talking nonstop and had no idea what he’d been talking about. That was rapping. Or, you could be with someone else, or even a group, and having an earnest discussion. Pot wasn’t necessarily a component in this instance. That was rapping, too. I used to cringe when they called it a “rap session,” but that’s what we called them back then where I was, and I was in a lot of places. It was just silly talk or a serious discussion; either way, we rapped. And now it means something else, but that’s where it came from, and this is about how it got to here, so we’re going backwards.

     

    Let’s start with all the rap music that’s out in the world right now, and go back from there. Let’s include Kurtis Blow, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, and Biggie and Tupac, and N.W.A. and Ice-T and Snoop Dogg and Eminem and Nicki Minaj and Kesha and everyone you know in that field, and there’s a lot of them. Let’s call all of them current artists, and yes, I know who’s dead. Let’s say that these are the folks you know, and for those of you that know more than I do about the recent history of rap, please excuse my glossing over most of the details to get to the first of it. Let’s go backwards to January, 1981. You’ll like this.

     

    The first mainstream rap hit song was “Rapture,” by Blondie. Rap song? Blondie? The New Wave hit machine? Well, it had a rap, no doubt, and up ‘til then, rap had always been tough black guys, mostly gangsta, you feel me? Well, Debbie Harry was as opposite all that as you could devise, but it was rap—okay, maybe rap-ish—but Blondie was a powerhouse group and the song did have rap. It was also the beginning of the Age of Video, and MTV played the bejeesus out of the song. It was November, 1980 when that song came out and became the first major pop hit with rap in it. It was dipping your toes in rap, but it was huge. What preceded it?

     

    Well, that would be “Rapper’s Delight,” by The Sugar Hill Gang, which came out in September, 1979, and went to #36 on the Billboard Hot 100, #4 on the Soul chart, #1 in Canada and Europe. It’s thought of as the first song to introduce rap (or hip-hop) to U.S. audiences, was a great big hit, and you know about sampling, right? This would be when sampling came into prominence, and from that development two phenomena emerged: today’s rap music, and a whole boatload of very wealthy lawyers. And you know who they sampled for this big hit?

     

    Well, that would be “Good Times,” by Chic, which came out in June of 1979, and went on to be sampled too many times to even estimate at this point (note: check out Who Sampled for a list of the 180 times this track has been sampled and many other delights - CC). But “Rapper’s Delight” was the first to almost go mainstream, and when it hit, Debbie brought legendary singer/songwriter/producer/ recent Rock ‘n’ Roll Hall of Fame inductee Nile Rodgers of Chic, to a club where he heard his beats and bass lines being used in some other guys’ song. He asked the DJ what record it was, the DJ told him he just bought it that day in Harlem, and it was an early version of “Rapper’s Delight,” whereupon they sued over the use of their record, and he and his bass player are now listed as co-writers. So, was “Rapper’s Delight” with all the “Good Times’” samples the first rap record to get serious airplay? No, that would be “King Tim III (Personality Jock),” by The Fatback Band, in March of 1979. And think about that title for an indication of how rare this was. It was happening fast, wasn’t it? Where’d this come from?  

     

    The funk dance outfit The Fatback Band was looking for something new, something energetic to put out. Knowing about the parties (remember- we’re going backwards here), they hired Tim Washington, an almost unknown MC who used to throw out raps at parties, and they recorded the song. They were a funk band, but they’d wanted something innovative, something to drive the song, so they went to a rapper because that was still all but unknown on any music charts, but there were dance parties in the Bronx and now elsewhere that were increasing in popularity, and rap was still exciting and daring. They thought the dance parties were not their dance crowd, so they put it out as the B-side. They thought those parties out there were for someone else,  but the song took off like a shot in clubs and parties, and they re-released it as the A-side. I’m guessing the folks over at Sugar Hill Records thought they were on to something as they prepared to release “Rapper’s Delight,” shortly thereafter, and they were right. So now we’re back in March of 1979, when “King Tim” came out. So where’d he come from? Glad I asked.

     

    What had been going on until “King Tim” was parties with MCs, starting in 1973, when Coke La Rock and DJ Kool Herc teamed up for a dance party in the Bronx to celebrate his sister’s birthday. La Rock improvised lines over the beats, mostly calling out to friends in the crowd and making up short stories to the beat, puffing up him and his friends. He did their first few parties from behind the speakers so no one knew who was rapping. For the sixth party, he started calling himself La Rock, and stepped out in front and got bolder, incorporating more poetry into his lines. His antics were getting closer to rap, but it was closer to a combination of performance art and showing off. The idea caught on and other parties started featuring MCs, and I’m using the term in a general way or we’ll be here all day.

     

    Their success made these two players influential as the other MCs started showing up at dance parties. Violence was always a part of the raps because they reflected the reality of life in the ghetto, but the lore must have included the night when DJ Kool Herc was stabbed at a party, and when La Rock went looking to settle the score, he found that friends of the perpetrator had sent the guy out of town. La Rock mostly retired from rapping after that, but his influence lived on with the current and then the next generation of rappers. Later rappers eschewed La Rock’s improvisations, writing out the lyrics out and rehearsing their rhymes with a crew, which allowed them to become more complex. These parties continued outside the notice of mainstream record labels and the songs appeared mostly on tape until The Fatback Band, and we’ve been there and done that, so what the hell could possibly have preceded Coke La Rock in 1973? I’ve got two names for you: Gil Scott-Heron and The Last Poets.

     

    Summer, 1971.  The “Sixties” are over, but racial tensions continue to erupt.

     

    Gi-Scott-HeronAnd this is where I came in. In the old days, the pre-Sixties, we only had AM radios and all we listened to was Top 40. When all that changed with the Underground Radio revolution, we all listened to our FM stations, and that was where this essay starts. The snippet of the song I heard that started me on this quest was in the opening music for the just-ended season of “Homeland,” on Showtime. I heard a phrase that I’d heard the first time in the song “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised,” by Gil Scott-Heron. It would only ever be played on FM in the summer of 1971; it was too hot for AM, and I don’t mean “hot” in the good way. Over the years, the phrase popped up now and then, and I know there isn’t an ex-hipster out there who forgot it, and when I heard it on that show, I wanted to know more about it.

     

    It was played on FM because it was daring, it was about “the revolution” that had evolved into the middle class when the hippies got married and had children; some were left some behind. AM wouldn’t touch it, and it didn’t ignite any flames that I know of, but I heard it, and so did those of us still listening. I wasn’t alarmed, but I did think that this was something new. Not just the message, but the medium. That was new, and I paid attention. It was in 1971, and it didn’t ignite any flames, but it was something different, and that’s what I heard. Different. It was jazzy and pop-ish, but it had a message, maybe a warning. In the early Sixties, Dylan wrote: “Yes, it is I who is knockin’ at your door if it is you inside who hears the noise,” and we heard him knocking when he sang,

     

    Oh the foes will rise with the sleep still in their eyes

    And they’ll jerk from their beds and think they’re dreamin’

    And they’ll pinch themselves and squeal and know that it’s for real

    The hour when the ship comes in

     

    The message was received, the Sixties had come and gone, and there’d been some changes made. But not enough for a lot of the black community, who were still restless, waiting for all the freedoms that were promised so recently. Black Olympians had raised their fists in the Black Power salute, James Brown said “I’m black and I’m proud,” but where were the changes? The influence of the Black Panthers had come and gone by 1971, when Gil Scott-Heron released “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.” He was speaking for a group that was virtually unheard in pop culture, and we heard the warning. We’d heard it from Dylan, and he’d been chillingly right…

     

    I remember comparing the two in 1971. When I heard it recently, I asked myself if this wasn’t the origin of rap. It was certainly so in my mind, and then I saw that confirmed in my research, but I also found one more step backwards in the history of rap, and that would be to The Last Poets, a group founded in the wake of the late 1960’s Civil Rights Movement, and its Black Nationalist’s offshoot. Angry revolutionaries, they made no effort to couch their message in radio-ready language, and so it was months before Scott-Heron put out “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised” that they released The Last Poets, which, out of concern for my host’s inbox I will call: this song and the other song, neither of which you may play in sensitive situations.

     

    I never heard this group back then, and I can guess why. Maybe it was because of the language? I don’t know, maybe Station Managers or Program Directors or owners felt that playing Gil Scott-Heron was daring, but playing The Last Poets was a bridge too far. Even hippie stations had to sell ads and keep their licenses. Don’t know, don’t care; this is about the first rap music and I think this is it. Maybe you never heard of The Last Poets, either, but they were not unheard, and if you listen, you can hear their echoes today. Them and Gil Scott-Heron.

     

    Were they angry? Definitely. Got a point? You decide. What I decided was that this was as far back as I can trace rap. Yes, there may be evidence of rap as far back as the early 18th Century in Congo Square, but 1970 is as far as I go.

     

    Now rap is everywhere and has fragmented into styles and methods, as it should. It’s in clubs, on TV, on the web and stuck in people’s ears; if there are still boom boxes, then it’s there, too. It’s on the guy’s radio next to you at a red light, and at or near every 7-11 in at least in Southern California, and it’s in movies and TV soundtracks, and it’s in the news, and its biggest stars are the biggest stars, and it’s come a long way from The Last Poets and Gil Scott-Heron and Coke La Rock and The Fatback Band.

     

    You may now go back to the present day. And good day to you.  

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    GilbertgGilbert Klein has enough degrees and not enough stories. He’s been a radio talk show host, a nightclub owner, event producer, and has written two books: FAT CHANCE about the legendary KFAT radio, and FOOTBALL 101. He threatens to write one more. He spent 25 years in New York, 25 years in San Francisco, and is now purportedly retired in Baja.




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    9 hours ago, firedog said:

    And that isn't new. Popular music has mostly been like that for it's entire history.

     

    In the golden age of jazz, the most popular artists weren't the ones we revere today - Ellington, Parker, etc. A lot of the most popular music was made by secondary artists just out to make a buck. 

     

    In the late 50's and early 60's popular music was again mostly junk. Ever hear "Polka Dot Bikini"?

     

    In the US, an actual artist like Buddy Holly didn't sell that well and after his death was mostly forgotten. A lot of American kids had no idea who he or other American performers (like Motown and other blues and R&B artists) were until the Beatles and the rest of the British invasion groups popularized their music in the US. 

     

    And where do you think the idea of "june and spoon" lyrics came from? Not from the rap era. Most writers of popular lyrics haven't been Cole Porter like or even Dylanesque.

     

    Even in the mid-60's to mid 70's, when popular music was supposedly "serious": the Monkees outsold the Beatles in 67, the animated Archies (many of the same players as the first Monkees album, I believe) were big sellers, and who can forget the deep and meaningful music made by groups like "Three Dog Night"?

     

    I actually like some of that music, but let's stop pretending that popular music has mostly been some high level art form until rap and hip-hop came along. 

     

    by Definition, art music is music that's not intended to be commercially marketed to sell albums.   Pop music is created to be commercially successful.  Those are the two extremes and then there is different levels in between.  To sell albums they have to figure out what sells.  With Rap, it's vulgar lyrics is what sells.  Two Live Crew started that trend In the beginning with their rap version of Doo Wah Diddy.  

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    1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Keep digging that hole. 

     

    Yeah right.  You are the one that's clueless.   

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    I used to read Shakespeare because of the foul language and I still love it

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    23 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

    I used to read Shakespeare because of the foul language and I still love it

     

    Foul language?   So, how many times are the words "nigga, Bitch, and motherfucker used"?  Maybe you're reading the Ebonics version.  :-)

     

    It's also using a form of English that's not really spoken in daily conversations anymore.   It's using basically a dead version of English.   Hopefully Ebonics will become a dead language, unfortunately it's becoming popular amongst the kids that are being brainwashed by Rappers as these kids idolize them.  Some of these kids will grow out of it, some won't. but many will end up probably getting into gangs, dealing drugs, guns or becoming a pimp like Snoop Dogg,  and many will end up going to jail.  Isn't that what gives these rappers street credibility?

     

     

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    Is anyone else needing more clarification on DRB100's point of view on rap, Ebonics, urban youth culture, music theory and education?

    I think this horse has been beaten dead for weeks. Weeks.

    (I would make a reference to white horse, but it may start him up all over again.)

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    16 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

    he appears unacquainted with Shakespeare (or the christian bible)

     

    maybe we can move on to more devil music.... like Funk

     

    I studied Shakespeare in college and high school. It's been a while since that was a long time ago. But the so-called bad language aren't the modern swear words that people associate.  They might have been foul language to those of that period of time.  Most, if not all, of the foul language in Shakespeare aren't even commonly used words today.  So you're comparison isn't really holding much water to me.

     

    Name the bad words in Shakespeare since you are so familiar with it and let's see if they are even used in modern English.

     

    what's the Christian Bible got to do with anything?  It's just a useless book used to brainwash people into a religious cult.   Not my thing.   Religions were originally meant to control people and they tend to promote racism and they many times lead to wars. 

     

    And isn't alcohol the Devil's milk and isn't alcoholic beverages used in many religions like Christianity?  They do drink red wine to represent the blood of Christ. Right? 


    Funk is the devil's music?  I haven't heard that one.  And I"m hoping you can show some valid proof to that. Right?

     

    The music itself isn't. Maybe some of the lyrics but then again it would depend on what lyrics you are speaking of.  That's why one has to be careful what they listen 

     

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    Thou whoeson lump of foul deformity, villain, I have done thy mother

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    15 hours ago, DRB100 said:

     

    by Definition, art music is music that's not intended to be commercially marketed to sell albums.   Pop music is created to be commercially successful.  Those are the two extremes and then there is different levels in between.  To sell albums they have to figure out what sells.  With Rap, it's vulgar lyrics is what sells.  Two Live Crew started that trend In the beginning with their rap version of Doo Wah Diddy.  

    You are quite mistaken if you think Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington and the Beatles weren't trying to be commercial. They were trying as hard as they could to make music they liked and that would sell -and sell big. They freely talked about it, and admitted freely that their recording decisions -material, arrangements - were often dictated by commercial considerations. 

     

    I'm pretty sure that when: a) Charlie Parker made a single called "Romance Without Finance" with a lead singer and lyrics about a guy pimping his girlfriend; or ( b) the Beatles wrote a song called "From Me to You"  - that commercial success was their main consideration. Not high levels of art and sophistication. 

     

    Again, your argument that Rap is somehow unique in the history of popular music because it is appealing to a low common denominator (by your definition) has no basis in history or facts. 

     

    As Chris said, keep digging that hole for your position that has little to do with the history of popular music, or any facts, unless you subscribe to that universe of "alternate facts". 

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    8 hours ago, firedog said:

    You are quite mistaken if you think Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington and the Beatles weren't trying to be commercial. They were trying as hard as they could to make music they liked and that would sell -and sell big. They freely talked about it, and admitted freely that their recording decisions -material, arrangements - were often dictated by commercial considerations. 

     

    I'm pretty sure that when: a) Charlie Parker made a single called "Romance Without Finance" with a lead singer and lyrics about a guy pimping his girlfriend; or ( b) the Beatles wrote a song called "From Me to You"  - that commercial success was their main consideration. Not high levels of art and sophistication. 

     

    Again, your argument that Rap is somehow unique in the history of popular music because it is appealing to a low common denominator (by your definition) has no basis in history or facts. 

     

    As Chris said, keep digging that hole for your position that has little to do with the history of popular music, or any facts, unless you subscribe to that universe of "alternate facts". 

     

    I was just mentioning the definition of Art based music and pop based music based on one definition that I have read.  So, I didn't make up the definition.  I also did NOT mention Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington, or the Beatles as not trying to be commercial.  I also mentioned that there are varying levels in between these two extremes because there are going to be some bands that are trying to put some artistic integrity AND to be commercially successful at the same time, but they will lean more towards one side vs the other. 


    Duke Ellington, in his peak years he was pop music back then, but by today's standards? NO.  the kids aren't lining up to buy his music.  His music doesn't sell that well and it doesn't get a lot of radio attention because there aren't exactly a lot of jazz stations around anymore to play it.  

     

    Charlie Parker?  most of the kids growing up never even heard of Charlie Parker either.  Only the kids that study/listen to jazz are the ones that have heard of him.  I wouldn't say that Be Bop was commercial pop music, it's definitely more artistic in nature.  But If you are one of these argumentative types and you want to argue this, go right ahead.  I just personally feel that most of Charlie Parker's stuff leaned far more towards the artistic side than "pop".  There might be one or two examples of more "Pop" oriented, but those would be anomalies. 

     

    The Beatles?  Their first few albums were totally commercial pop when they were REMAKING other rock hits and songs like I Wanna Hold Your Hand.   As they aged and matured, they leaned more "artistic" in their approach, especially with Sargent Pepper's, but George Martin was the reason for Sargent Pepper's being what it was since he wrote the scores for the brass, woodwind, stringed and reed instruments.  He, I believe, played some obscure instruments and it was his production techniques he was experimenting with.  So, George Martin was the artistic one from that sense.  Yes, the Beatles ware also trying to be more artistic rather than singing some teeny bobber song I Wanna Hold Your Hand music.

     

    Instrumental music, by nature is TYPICALLY more artistic than "POP".  Only a couple of instrumentals have ever hit the top Ten on the "POP" charts.   

     

     

     

     

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    9 hours ago, firedog said:

    You are quite mistaken if you think Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington and the Beatles weren't trying to be commercial. They were trying as hard as they could to make music they liked and that would sell -and sell big. They freely talked about it, and admitted freely that their recording decisions -material, arrangements - were often dictated by commercial considerations. 

     

    I'm pretty sure that when: a) Charlie Parker made a single called "Romance Without Finance" with a lead singer and lyrics about a guy pimping his girlfriend; or ( b) the Beatles wrote a song called "From Me to You"  - that commercial success was their main consideration. Not high levels of art and sophistication. 

     

    Again, your argument that Rap is somehow unique in the history of popular music because it is appealing to a low common denominator (by your definition) has no basis in history or facts. 

     

    As Chris said, keep digging that hole for your position that has little to do with the history of popular music, or any facts, unless you subscribe to that universe of "alternate facts". 

    You and Chris have the same problem. You don't read my comments very well.  Re-READ my comment word for word and see where you completely screwed up and dug your own hole in the ground.  Now, if you want to be a man and apologize, I might accept that, if your apology is sincere, if not, then that's because you aren't man enough to apologize.

     

    I didn't mention those three names specifically. did I?   

     

    I wrote that there is ART music and POP music and a brief definition.  Now, if you want a more complete definition, then got to WikiPedia which has a VERY lengthy discussion on the differences.  Or you can go to another site that you feel has a better definition of ART music vs POP music.    They site jazz as being Art music, however there are some forms of jazz that fall into the POP category.

     

    But again, I didn't mention anyone specifically, however I did mention that for the rap industry, foul language is what helps them sell albums.  If you look up most of the rappers that have BOTH a clean version AND an explicit language version, the clean version typically doesn't sell as well as the foul language version.

     

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    3 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

    You and Chris have the same problem. You don't read my comments very well.  Re-READ my comment word for word and see where you completely screwed up and dug your own hole in the ground.  Now, if you want to be a man and apologize, I might accept that, if your apology is sincere, if not, then that's because you aren't man enough to apologize.

     

    @firedog and I aren't worthy. We would be forever indebted to you if you accepted an apology on your terms. 

     

    Come on Dr. You write words as if they are facts rather than your opinion. I think you may learn quite a bit talking to some of us who you classify as clueless. 

     

     

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    13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

    @firedog and I aren't worthy. We would be forever indebted to you if you accepted an apology on your terms. 

     

    Come on Dr. You write words as if they are facts rather than your opinion. I think you may learn quite a bit talking to some of us who you classify as clueless. 

     

     

    They are based on my opinion which comes from facts.  Now, we can argue a specific song/recording all day long, I don't have a problem with that and we can end up both being right or wrong and have a different opinion.  But I was just giving a brief definition based on reading what the actual terms mean from various definitions I have read that are formulated from musicologists.  Obviously I'm not gong to write a 10 page desertation on the differences in  Art  based music and Pop based music and I THOUGHT that everyone hear is old enough, and mature enough to have looked up the definition of each to understand what I said, which was a VERY brief definition.   

     

    Yeah, I'll forgive those that apologize.   Just say the words "I'm sorry. I was wrong" and mean it.   Next time read the words carefully and if you have a different position, then clarify your different position.  

     

     

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    38 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

    @firedog and I aren't worthy. We would be forever indebted to you if you accepted an apology on your terms. 

     

    Come on Dr. You write words as if they are facts rather than your opinion. I think you may learn quite a bit talking to some of us who you classify as clueless. 

     

     

    Also, I have read the definitions of the word musician from many different sources,  Dictionaries, music dictionaries, from musicologist, music professors from reputable music colleges and there are some slight differences in their definitions of the word musician.  I then take all of that into consideration to formulate MY opinion which is largely based on definitions of the word musician.  And I have come to the conclusion that rappers aren't musicians, UNLESS they can display a competent level of proficiency by playing a musical instrument or singing.  Also, by the definitions I have read about rapping, they categorize it falling in between singing and poetry but it's NEITHER.

     

    So the Poetry Society doesn't give any of these rappers credit for being a poet.  At least not that I've seen.    Go to the Poetry Society of America and see if any rapper has been given praise for their "POETRY".  I would think that the Poetry Society of America knows what poetry is and isn't as they are the experts in that area of expertise.  Right?    If you do, let me know, I haven't seen any.  Yeah, like they are going to give 2 Live Crew attention from the Poetry Society of America. Hell has to not only freeze over, but a lot of other impossible events have to take place before that happens.  :-)

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    On 7/7/2017 at 11:05 PM, DRB100 said:

    That's what I mean. Immature people buy music because of the foul language and you still love it?   Sounds like you have haven't matured a day since you were a kid.

     

    Do you know what a ManChild?  it's a grown man with the mentality of an immature child.  That's what these rappers are.  They are grown men that never grew up maturity wise and they promote the same mentality.  You've just been brainwashed as they were your baby sitters, in a way.

     

    Your alternative facts from which you base your opinion. 

     

     

    On 7/8/2017 at 9:53 AM, DRB100 said:

    I'm sorry but the white community, for the most part, stopped using that word a long freaking time ago.  In fact, I don't believe I heard it from a white person since the early 70's, but it was already being frowned upon where I lived.

     

    "Whites (including Hispanics who identify as White) constitute the majority, with a total of about 246,660,710, or 77.35% of the population as of 2014. Non-Hispanic Whites totaled about 197,870,516, or 62.06% of the U.S. population."

     

    Your comments about "the white community" are pretty laughable when considering my facts written above. How you can speak about a community of ~200,000,000 with respect to using the N word is beyond me. I think, you think, you know more than you do and you're showing it again and again. 

     

     

     

     

    On 7/8/2017 at 10:49 AM, DRB100 said:

    They use it because they are ignorant.  They use it in lyrics in a rap song because it sells.  If you have a rap song and there are two versions, the foul language version and the clean version. which one do kids want to listen to if they didn't have their parental control?   The found language version. Why?  Because kids want to listen to foul language in songs and that's what sells.   

     

    Alternative facts used to develop your opinions. 

     

    I get the sense you haven't stepped foot in any of the communities about which you talk. I'd say you're more ignorant about them than they are about you.

     

     

     

     

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    5 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

    Also, I have read the definitions of the word musician from many different sources,  Dictionaries, music dictionaries, from musicologist, music professors from reputable music colleges and there are some slight differences in their definitions of the word musician.  I then take all of that into consideration to formulate MY opinion which is largely based on definitions of the word musician.  And I have come to the conclusion that rappers aren't musicians, UNLESS they can display a competent level of proficiency by playing a musical instrument or singing.  Also, by the definitions I have read about rapping, they categorize it falling in between singing and poetry but it's NEITHER.

     

    So the Poetry Society doesn't give any of these rappers credit for being a poet.  At least not that I've seen.    Go to the Poetry Society of America and see if any rapper has been given praise for their "POETRY".  I would think that the Poetry Society of America knows what poetry is and isn't as they are the experts in that area of expertise.  Right?    If you do, let me know, I haven't seen any.  Yeah, like they are going to give 2 Live Crew attention from the Poetry Society of America. Hell has to not only freeze over, but a lot of other impossible events have to take place before that happens.  :-)

     

    The reasons for not giving rappers (a huge class of people with many different skill sets) these credits may have nothing to do with the credibility of their art and personal talent.

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    3 minutes ago, LarryMagoo said:

    Rap is still not music....

     

    Except when it is. 

     

    Here's Macklemore surprising his grandma for her 100 birthday and making a video of it. Great music. 

     

     

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    The  Luminaries are rappers (or hip-hop music makers) who don't seem to use foul language - not I particularly care for rap or their music all that much...

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    2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

    The  Luminaries are rappers (or hip-hop music makers) who don't seem to use foul language - not I particularly care for rap or their music all that much...

     

    Do you mean Luminaries to rappers that put out foul language rap?  

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    2 hours ago, LarryMagoo said:

    Rap is still not music....

     

    It's time to move on, time to get going
    What lies ahead, I have no way of knowing
    But under our feet, baby, grass is growing
    It's time to move on, it's time to get going

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    2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

    The reasons for not giving rappers (a huge class of people with many different skill sets) these credits may have nothing to do with the credibility of their art and personal talent.

    I have to find credibility in the person before I look at what they've done to consider it art or having talent.  Musical talent?  NOPE.  They have to be a musician to prove that.   

    I do admit that when I listen to the 2 live crew, I laugh uncontrollably because I think it's more comedy than it is music.  It's so stupid, it's entertaining in some ways, but I don't think of it as any serious music or them being musical.  Heck, they couldn't even make everything rhyme or have proper rhymes cadence, which makes stupid.  But there are kids that buy into it.

     

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    11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Are you really up in arms about swear words? 

     

    #FirstWorldProblems

     

    When foul language is being used in a racist, sexist manner, yeah, I do have a problem with that. I don't find it enhancing the music aspect all that much.   I hear and say enough swear words on my own without needing it in music. Music to me is my sanctuary to get away from the crap and stresses of the world, not to bring them in. That's why I listen to music.  I don't want to hear how some gang banger would have sex with whores, kill people, etc. etc. because a lot of these rappers WERE gang bangers and they are telling their stupid story trying to make a quick buck.  Enough.  I'm tired of it.  You hear one, that's more than enough.   I don't want THEIR environment infiltrating mine.  It's called polluting my space so where's MY freedom NOT to listen to it?  It's infiltrating into TV show and movies as background music. It's hard to get away from that.  It's played in cars at obscenely loud volumes.  Hard to get away from that. I just don't like it and I don't like being subjected to it.  My freedom to NOT listen to is being violated all of the time.

     

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