Reasons to convert Apple Lossles Files to AIFF

[mwheelerk]

When I first began this computer audiophile journey I decided upon Apple Lossless files as the format of choice. One of the considerations at that time was space but that is no longer a concern or consideration.

 

I also note that some believe there is an audible difference between lossless ALAC and noncompressed AIFF files. I personally have not been able to hear it but I also have never done any extensive testing or listening to form a complete opinion.

 

One reason I have seen proposed that AIFF might out perform ALAC is that possibly the lack of the AIFF file not requiring expansion from a compressed state preparing for playback (literally on-the-fly) gives it the sonic advantage over ALAC.

 

Looking to the future I am considering conversion of my library (about 1,250 album titles) to AIFF. What are your opinions regarding doing this conversion?

 

Thanks

 

P.S. As a secondary thought all of my album artwork is embedded. If I make a AIFF copy via the Advanced tab will the artwork from that copy be embedded or will I have more work to do to ensure my artwork is embedded?

 

[Brian A]

Regarding the sound quality of the two Apple formats I don't have much to say, however your P.S. regarding metadata prompts me to comment.

 

I use iTunes as my media player, but for ripping CDs, I’ve changed from iTunes to dBpoweramp. The differences between dBpoweramp and iTunes are substantial.

 

ITunes doesn't save a whole bunch of information in metadata. Beside saving more information, dBpoweramp allows you to view all the metadata stored directly in the ALAC/AIFF(/FLAC) “package” created by any program. Checking a file created by iTunes reveals just how little iTunes writes directly to the package and how much it keeps as a separate iTunes database.

 

This is not good, since the metadata is not saved directly with the music. An important example you mention is “Album Art”. ITunes saves a 250x250 pixel image in its own iTunes database which can easily be disassociated with the music; by contrast, dBpoweramp saves a 750x750 pixel image directly in the metadata.

 

I wish I could figure out how to move metadata I currently have in my iTunes database directly into the music package's metadata.

 

[Paul R]

I did that last year, and while I am not always sure I can hear a difference, the cost in disk space is trivial, so why not?

 

Don't use iTunes to do the conversion, use XLD or some other tool. There are two main reasons for this. The first one is the showstopper:

 

iTunes won't convert 24 bit ALAC files to 24bit AIFF files, it will chop them down to 16bit. It also has some peculiarities with converting sample rates in AIFF files. Plays hireas AIFF just great, but chopping a 24/48 to 16/48 is a showstopper.

 

Second, as pointed out already, it isn't great about embedding information in the music files. XLD is my preferred tool of the moment.

 

As an aside, I am going through our entire media library, building an entirely new media library that can be converted from format to format much easier. I want to be able to point XLD or dbPowerAmp at the entire library and say, make a copy of this in ALAC, or AIFF, or FLAC, etc. without any required user intervention.

 

This involves setting up the metadata better, embedding all the artwork, and stopping rips from iTunes. Not because iTunes doesn't sound great with RIPs, but because I want better control over the Metadata.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

[goldsdad]

iTunes will embed multiple rectangular images of any dimensions into an AIFF or ALAC (and other audio file formats).

 

The following tags are embedded into the audio file by iTunes. I may have missed some.

 

AIFF and ALAC

------------

Genre

Grouping

Artist

Album Artist

Album

Compilation

Part of Gapless Album

Disc Number

Disc Count

Year

Track Number

Track Count

Name

Composer

BPM

Comments

Lyrics

 

ALAC only

---------

Sort Artist

Sort Album Artist

Sort Album

Sort Composer

Sort Name

 

AIFF only

--------

Volume Adjustment

 

 

[goldsdad]

Hi Paul,

 

"Second, as pointed out already, it isn't great about embedding information in the music files. XLD is my preferred tool of the moment."

 

What metadata does XLD embed that iTunes doesn't?

 

 

[Paul R]

You misunderstand- iTunes can embed the metadata, it just won't do so by default. It also doesn't give you an opportunity to edit the metadata during import.

 

The real show stopper though, is iTunes screws up badly converting 24 bit ALAC files to AIFF, chopping the file down to be a 16 bit file.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

[Akapod]

The consensus at CA is that using a player which loads the music files into memory before playing them eliminates any sonic differences with AIFF, and that has been my experience.

 

I also prefer ALAC, as it allows me to put reasonable number of files on my iOS devices, although iTunes Matching should make this less important. Finally, using ALAC allows me to put a copy of my entire library on a portable drive. That drive serves primarily as a backup, but I also like to take it with me when I travel -- even if just to a friend's house. That, my laptop and a y-connector allows me to plug into anybody's stereo.

 

[goldsdad]

"You misunderstand- iTunes can embed the metadata, it just won't do so by default."

 

What do I misunderstand?

 

On my Mac, iTunes does embed the metadata that I listed above by default. In fact, I don't see how to make it not do that. Furthermore, when translating from ALAC to AIFF, the metadata is correctly transferred and embedded into the new file.

 

"It also doesn't give you an opportunity to edit the metadata during import."

 

As soon as tracks are added to iTunes, the metadata can be edited in iTunes, so no big deal as far as I see.

 

 

You are correct about the 24 to 16 bit truncation problem, but I don't see problems with iTunes and metadata.

 

 

 

 

[Paul R]

I don't believe it will embed the artwork by default Owen. You have to manually select the tracks and update the artwork. Rip a CD and see, it does not embed the artwork here.

 

I am not convinced it will automatically embed all the other metadata either, though I am not certain enough of that to argue with you about it. I am certain of the artwork.

 

I know iTunes overwrites some metadata when it does a file conversion, because it did it to me last week. Album Artist in particular. In specific it blanked out the Album Artist field on some tracks.

 

-Paul

 

 

[Paul R]

I suppose I was not very clear about what I meant in regards to iTunes and metadata either.

 

If you cannot edit the metadata before you store the files, iTunes is going to stick the files pretty much where ever it wants them, including breaking up some albums into multiple directories based on the artist fields.

 

XLD or instance, allows you to control that better, so that the entire contents of an album wind up in the same folder. For example, stored by Album Artist.

 

In fact, I use that behavior a lot - especially with classical music. For instance, I may fill in the Album Artist field with the name of the composer, causing the album to be stored under a folder with the composer's name.

 

If, I leave the Album Artist field blank, and there are multiple artists on the album, it might get stuffed under Compilations.

 

Or I might fill in Album Artist with "Soundtracks", which is what I do for most of my movie soundtrack albums.

 

This gives me much more precise control over how the media files are stored on disk, and a little more control over how iTunes or other programs builds the database.

 

In any case, the point is:

 

iTunes does not deal with metadata as well as other programs

iTunes does not deal with 24 bit file conversions except into ALAC format

iTunes does not automatically embed album artwork into tracks

 

Those are the points I want to make for Mike to consider, not to argue if iTunes is a better ripper or not. That simply depends upon who you are and what you want to do.

 

-Paul

 

 

[goldsdad]

Paul, this thread isn't about ripping. It's about converting files from ALAC to AIFF.

 

[goldsdad]

Paul, this thread is about converting files from ALAC to AIFF, not ripping. So apart from the 24 to 16 bit truncation when converting to AIFF, iTunes seems perfectly good for the role in question.

 

 

[goldsdad]

"P.S. As a secondary thought all of my album artwork is embedded. If I make a AIFF copy via the Advanced tab will the artwork from that copy be embedded or will I have more work to do to ensure my artwork is embedded?"

 

Don't worry. If the artwork is embedded in the source files, then artwork will be automatically embedded in the new files.

 

 

[Paul R]

Yeah- okay. I'm converting about 3000 albums right now and I'm finding a lot of issues with iTunes or that were caused by iTunes.

 

More accurately, caused by a misunderstanding of exactly how iTunes would handle metadata in some cases. It's a lot of cleanup to get back to a absolutely known good state.

 

YMMV.

 

-Paul

 

 

[Brian A]

Here is a screen shot of similar track rips using iTunes and dBpoweramp. ITunes did not embed the Album Art. (Sorry, I can't remember how to post the image directly in my post.)

 

[goldsdad]

"ITunes did not embed the Album Art."

 

The OP said that the art is already embedded in the ALACs. iTunes will embed the art in the AIFFs that it converts from the ALACs.

 

 

 

 

[mwheelerk]

I am just home and I an now reviewing the posts and will begin commenting and asking questions as I go.

 

With regards to the first post and dBpoweramp. If I am not mistaken that is a Windows based software and I am a Mac user so from that standpoint it cannot be considered for my needs.

 

My metadata needs are quite simple and iTunes seems to do the task just fine for me. Regarding album artwork and size all of my album artwork was manually imported and therefore embedded with the files. Whenever I take a sample of artwork from iTunes (either to modify it or compare it to another of the same album title) iTunes always reflects it in Preview as the size I intially inserted (I use a minimum size of 600 x 600 with some images at 700 x 700, 750 x 750 or 800 x 800). I rarely use the Advance>Get Album Artwork feature and when I do I remove a sample with of the artwork and then manually reinsert it to the file which embeds it. I have confirmed this working with Doug’s Applescript for Album Artwork.

 

[mwheelerk]

I would agree that truncation of 24bit files to 16 bit would be a showstopper and I thank you for bringing that to my attention.

 

I have primarily used iTunes to import files but I do have XLD and MAX also. I found XLD to my tastes somewhat cumbersome. I use MAX primarily for converting HDTrack 24 bit FLAC downloads to ALAC for insertion into iTunes.

 

If there is no downside to converting the 16 bit files with iTunes I would probably continue using iTunes. I am quite sure I can use MAX to convert the 24 bit ALAC to AIFF but if I cannot I will use XLD.

 

My primary library is on my Mac Mini. I keep a very small library on my iMac just for this type of purpose, to try things. I am going to convert some of the files to AIFF and then check using Doug’s Applescript for Album Artwork that the images are indeed embedded with the files. I will then take an convert a 24 bit file with MAX and then import it to iTunes and check my results.

 

If for some reason the 24 bit file was truncated to 16 bit how would I know. Will it show that in Get Info?

 

[mwheelerk]

My consideration for doing this was first any potential sonic upgrade. If I don’t realize one then I am not that concerned because as I stated and others space is no longer a concern.

 

Regarding use with iPods I generally create specific playlists for those devices and do not anticipate wanting or needed anywhere near my whole collection on one. It is simply too easy and quick to create a new playlist and synch the iPod to your library whenever you want.

 

[mwheelerk]

I am not sure I understand the points trying to be made regarding editing metadata. Obviously after the fact you can edit metadata in iTunes. You can also edit metadata prior to import (though on a song by song basis but I have done it). I am not sure how you can edit metadata from any software (iTunes, MAX, XLD) while importing but I could be wrong.

 

[mwheelerk]

Although I always appreciate and pay attention to your input Paul regarding the basic need here (other than the very important 24 bit truncation you brought up) I believe I have to agree with goldsdad and cannot see why iTunes is not more than sufficient for the task I am considering.

 

I am still concerned about potentially having to re-embed all the artwork. That would significantly add to the task.

 

[mwheelerk]

Goldsdad I hope you are correct and that the artwork is indeed embedded with the AIFF file after conversion from ALAC because that would save a considerable amount of tedious work.

 

The last thought on the posts so far is again I am trying to look a little to the future (and certainly not knowing the future) and thinking that having an uncompressed file format may be the direction I should go. Would you agree wtih that or not?

 

[goldsdad]

All I can say is that using iTunes 10.2.2 (and several earlier versions) on OS X 10.6.8 (and several earlier versions), iTunes does embed the artwork in the new AIFF if the artwork is embedded in the ALAC.

 

If artwork is in an audio file then it will show in Finder's Get Info as in first attached image

 

 

When converting to AIFF with Max, ensure that the output bit depth is specified to match the input. XLD automatically uses the same output bit depth as the input. iTunes is limited to a maximum bit depth of 16 when converting to AIFF, therefore it will truncate 24 bits to 16.

 

Bit depth is shown in iTunes's Get Info as in second attached image.

 

 

 

Finally, if storage space is not a consideration then, yes, use AIFF from now on to negate your worry of possible future decoding problems of ALAC.

 

 

 

 

 

[mwheelerk]

Thanks for the heads up on the output bit depth issue. As posted earlier I do agree that the artwork will be embedded in the conversion to AIFF.

 

I think I am going ahead with the project of conversion. I am going to add a new external HDD this weekend and put my library on that. I am going to wait until that is done to begin. I am going to proceed slowly with album by album conversion and progress to larger and larger batch conversion as I become more confident everything is good.

 

Thanks

 

[mwheelerk]

I seem to have run into some inconsistency with embedding artwork into AIFF files. After converting my ALAC library to AIFF I had a few artwork challenges that I simply accepted as part of the conversion process and fixed them individually.

 

Now it is occurring with my new album imports. I almost always manually insert artwork. Occassionally when I cannot find the artwork I need I will try the Get Album Artwork iTunes function but even then I will remove a copy of it to my desktop and manually embed it.

 

The problem, which I have seen another member complain about is that in some albums some songs the artwork will not 'take' and only a black box will appear. In Finder as wgscott suggested the embedded artwork will show in Finder Get Info but these black boxes are randomly popping up. It can also happen when I try to change/upgrade artwork for an album. Sometimes I can simply delete the artwork for the album and re-embed it but that doesn't always work. Sometimes I go through the individual songs using the Add/Delete under the artwork tab and delete the black box and then add the artwork back. That works but not always. Finally I have converted the AIFF file back to ALAC embed the artwork and then reconvert it to AIFF and that works most of the time.

 

When the artwork is embedded it will show as previously mentioned in Finder. If there is no artwork there then a music note appears on a white background. For the files I have problems with it appears as the aforementioned black box or as that same musical note but over a dark gray/black box.

 

What am I doing wrong? Is this an ongoing issue/battle if I use AIFF? I had a couple of reasons for making the move to AIFF but now I wonder if I should have.

 

As always any help and insight is appreciated.