Article: Thoughts On Immersive Audio

[The Computer Audiophile]

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[The Computer Audiophile]

26 minutes ago, Marco Klobas said:

When Apple introduced (and started to push) its Spatial Audio my reaction was cautious.

 

I thought: "OK, fine for newly released music productions. Don't touch the recordings already made in plain stereo, though. Especially without artist's/conductor's consent."

 

I'm open to change my opinions on this matter (and, as a matter of fact, on other topics). It's the right approach to the new things or to the already established beliefs. Curiously, to some extents, I noticed that I'm more open minded now than what I was decades ago. 🙂

 

I see Karajan, I read about your journey in immersive audio with a positive and exciting experience (firstly on other's systems and now on yours). I value your opinion and now I look forward to listen somewhere through speakers some Dolby Atmos recordings (both, remastered stuff and new albums) to get a better idea of what a multichannel audio is capable of.

 

For now I can rely only on Apple Music and headphones. As a subscriber, I'm glad to see see Digital Concert Hall already promoting Dolby Atmos contents.

 

Two channel systems are already sometimes difficult to achieve. Let alone a 12 channel audio rig. It's not only a matter of budget. The listening room/area has to be properly set and is definitely more demanding in terms of space and, obviously, number of devices involved.

 

Who knows, maybe one day I will start a multichannel update to my current audio system.

 

Thanks for your shared experience, Chris.

Hi Marco, thanks for the kind words. It’s people like you who make this community so enjoyable. You’re reasonable, you’re passionate about music, and you’re cautiously curious about improvements. I love it!

 

I was a big skeptic of immersive audio at first. Don’t touch my two channel recordings that I know and love! Fortunately, I gave it a chance and listened to as many opinions as possible. 
 

Your approach to try some old and new recordings is the right one. You need to mix it up, and even try to find out who mixed the albums. Not all mixing engineers are created equal. Some mixes bring me to tears in the best way, while others bring me to tears in the worst way. Just like stereo. 
 

I hope you can try immersive audio in a 12 channel system. It’s really a game changer. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Brian A said:

The other "how" I am very interested in learning about is how Atmos recordings are made. Herbert von Karajan passed away in 1989.  Did the recording technicians of the era actually somehow anticipate the likes of 7.1.4 and take the steps to capture the necessary data?

Hi Brian, that’s critical as well! The data must be there for the type of immersive mix that’s done. Some mixes like Abbey Road have sounds all over the place. Others just have ambient information coming from surround channels. 
 

I’ve heard that nobody is pleased with the studio plug-ins that create an Atmos mix from a stereo source. One artist even stopped it from being released. I don’t doubt it’s happening and will happen. Just like two channel, there are good and bad mixes. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, Marco Klobas said:

 

I'm wondering whether adding 9 active speakers + sub could facilitate the expansion to a 7.1.4 audio system. It's a matter of synergy, of course. The added active speakers should match sonically the existing stereo pair already present.

 

Do you think we'll see a rise of complete Dolby Atmos active speakers packages in the audiophile market?

 

I guess many audiophiles are skeptic. Yet, lately we've already seen many active stereo speakers sets leveraging DSP gaining traction. Active speakers have pros and cons: one weak point is that when the technology changes (a new format added or an existing format turned obsolete) an all-in-one (embedded) solution means changing basically the whole chain.

Adding active speakers and a sub would be a great way to do it. Many studios are done this way. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, ted_b said:

Chris, how are you keeping the Atmos layer while upsampling in HQPlayer to DSD256?  That would be wonderful to do.

 

Edit: btw, you request is on its way.  😎

Once the audio leaves the Dolby Reference Player, it's plain old PCM at 24/48. It can be routed to anything you'd like :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, grinner said:

How much does all this cost?

It can be done at any price level you wish. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, HVAC said:

If you haven’t already. Give “Lost Voices of Hagia Sophia” a listen. Acoustic recreation of sound in Hagia Sophia church now mosque in Turkey. HS built in 500AD if I remember correctly. Huge acoustic space chosen by sound engineers at Stanford to recreate electronically using psychoacoustic software. So this music hasn’t been heard in 2000+ years.  Even if you don’t like sacred music I’m sure you will agree this one is special. Available on Spotify and others. 
If you know anyone else interested, and I think most with nice equipment can present the space accurately, pass it on. 

Excellent. Thank you. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, bobfa said:

Charging my Airpods Max, downloading the concert hall app....  Hmmm....

Awesome. Let us know how it goes. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Morten is doing some amazing work, using the Genelecs. 
 

https://www.genelec.com/-/reference/genelec-the-ones-power-morten-lindberg-s-stunning-immersive-studio

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

19 hours ago, Norton said:

Chris

 

Great article.

 

I’m definitely mch/immersive curious and as a classical listener this article has just increased my curiosity. Incidentally , Digital Concert Hall have a free 7 day ticket offer available until 26thJune (for August concerts) .

 

Just to recap my understanding: Immersive is a 12 channel system, so you need an Atmos decoder/DAC/preamp, 12 channels of power amp, 7 surround speakers, 1 subwoofer and 4 in ceiling speakers?  Those 12 channels may come from a dedicated 12 channel Atmos recording, or else via a form of DSP for preAtmos stereo or mch recordings?
 

I appreciate that some of this stuff may be in one box, but it would be useful to have a guide as to example Atmos systems / hardware at different price points (more so for the electronics rather than speakers, sorry if I have missed something already done).

 

Also, can Atmos releases be mixed down to, say,  5.1 and still offer a benefit? For example, would it be possible/worthwhile to feed my OPPO205 via HDMI from an Atmos  decoder and then use the 205 as the heart of a MCH system, as I was already contemplating for SACD?  I don’t know if any ATMOS decoders are standalone  devices offering digital output and with onboard mix down, for example?  I know this may not be what is intended, but if Atmos means an exponential increase in available MCH music, it’s worth knowing if there are ways to get some of the benefit on existing kit without going the whole way.
 

Sorry, lots of questions as you have piqued my interest. Thanks.  N

 

Hi Norton, I love the questions! That's what this community is all about. 

 

The Digital Concert Hall is really cool. Kind of crazy that the old school Classical genre is leading the way with this stuff. 

 

Immersive can be a number of different configurations from 5.1.2 to 9.1.6 and more. 7.1.4 (12 channels) is the most popular standard and I believe is the max Apple Music is capable of streaming. 

 

Something needs to decode the Atmos or Auro 3D files (much more rare). macOS has a built-in decoder for Dolby Digital Plus that streams from Apple Music. It's very nice to have this. I also have the Dolby Reference Player to decode lossless TrueHD ripped from Blu-ray. Most people will use a processor with decoding built-in. with a processor you can output from an Apple TV (Apple Music or Tidal). 

 

Amps and speakers of course, or speakers with amps built-in. 12 of them. 

 

Atmos recordings are unique in that they are object based, not channel based. The mixing engineer places the sound objects in space, and the decoder on the consumer's end places the sound objects in the best location, based on how many channels the consumer has. The same mix can be used for stereo headphones, 5.1.2, 7.1.4, etc... It's a great system.

 

As long as the right information exists on tape or disk, an Atmos mix can be made. Some albums put full instruments and vocals all over while others place only ambient sound in the surround channels. Obviously different requirements from an original recording perspective. 

 

Be patient, I'm working on all kinds of articles to help people decide if this is for them, how to do it, etc... 

 

Downmixing from Atmos to 5.1 isn't something I've done or considered. Immersive audio and height channels are too important to me. I do understand the major commitment of height channels though and many people will find it tough to implement. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Some immersive goodies from Morten showed up today!

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

23 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

IMHO, yes.  Sometimes, I prefer that to the "immersive" presentation.

Not really.  It did so in multichannel and still does.

 

Um OK.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, bbosler said:

Chris, can you point us to information on ripping DTS and Atmos from Blu-Ray? I have it figured out for DVD-A and SACD. 

 

If it is one those multi-step processes that requires several programs  I'm not interested, but if as easy as SACD (once you get it set up) then I would give it a try, otherwise I'll just play the disc.

 

thanks

 

I touch on it here - 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, sdolezalek said:

Chris:  Have you given any thought as to whether your room treatments would want to change for "immersive" versus stereo?  Specifically, in stereo we generally assume room reflections to be part of our sound stage, in immersive it would seem that you would want a "deader"acoustic space so as to let the speakers do all the talking.  

I have thought about this a little, but not more than that. I still love two channel, so adjustments could detract from that. At the same time, I don’t want to make immersive suffer because of two channel. 
 

I think once people read the article I’m working on for next week, they see that it’s all good (subjectively and objectively). 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

My experiences has been completely the opposite - all MCH that I've heard immediately brings the word "gimmicky" to mind - it's too obvious what's being done, and detracts from a truly subjective immersion in the music - I lose interest. OTOH, correct optimisation of a stereo setup allows realistic volumes to be generated in the listening space - you are in a normal, real life situation where you listen to music being performed in front of you; rather than around you.

 

 

What can be done with discrete multichannel / immersive audio systems just can't be done with two channels. Period.

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, ShawnC said:

If your a RUSH fan, their releasing a big box set of Moving Pictures, with a Dolby Atoms version on Blu-ray.

 

Here's a good article on the release and a bit about what went into the recording of that album.

 

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/moving-pictures-rushs-1981-masterpiece-gets-its-due-atmos

I’ve listened to the Atmos version of Tom Sawyer on Apple Music. It’s really cool. I just wish the Blu-ray was available without purchasing the $300 box set with toy car etc…

 

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/168122/Rush-Moving_Pictures-Multi-Format_Box_Sets

[The Computer Audiophile]

New music releases come out on Fridays. I’m usually interested to see what’s new. Now that I have an immersive system, I’m so excited for Fridays. Not only hearing new music, but hearing both the stereo and Atmos mixes are so much fun. I look up who the mix engineers are, much more than mastering engineers, and I can’t wait to listen. 
 

For example, I just dropped my daughter off at day camp. The entire one hour drive (30 min each way), I listened to the new Jack Johnson album, Meet the Moonlight. In the car it was stereo, but the whole car ride I was imagining what it was going to sound like in Atmos. 
 

It’s fun to be this excited about music and listening. 
 

The new album is fantastic. The Atmos mix is done very well. I’m listening now and will likely be listening for a while :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, Me2 said:

I dont agree completly. I had the chance to listen in Munich to

 

https://www.theoretica.us/bacch-dsp/

 

and this was amazing what is coming out of "Stereospeakers". It was funny to look at the visitors which are having a look behind the speakers to search for surround speakers. One drawback was that you have to sit in the sweetspot or behind. So if somebody dont have the space to install a 7.1.4 or more system it is imho a alternative possibility. 

I sat through the same demo, calibrated to me, and really enjoyed it. This is certainly one way to get different sound, but it has nothing to do with reproducing what’s on the recording as accurately as possible. Nothing wrong with it, it just offers a presentation that’s quite different from any original. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

On 6/21/2022 at 6:07 PM, HVAC said:

If you haven’t already. Give “Lost Voices of Hagia Sophia” a listen. Acoustic recreation of sound in Hagia Sophia church now mosque in Turkey. HS built in 500AD if I remember correctly. Huge acoustic space chosen by sound engineers at Stanford to recreate electronically using psychoacoustic software. So this music hasn’t been heard in 2000+ years.  Even if you don’t like sacred music I’m sure you will agree this one is special. Available on Spotify and others. 
If you know anyone else interested, and I think most with nice equipment can present the space accurately, pass it on. 

I’m listening to the lossless TrueHD Atmos version of this now. Really cool. Not my favorite “music” but it’s cool. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

43 minutes ago, DigiPete said:

Smyth Research A16 Realiser . . .

So I have been looking for the most cost efficient and broad way to "be allowed" to stream Atmos content.
Man, why isn't it just easy???
I suppose it is, if you buy a standard Atmos certified reciever and just live with the sub-par sound quality.
I just can't get myself to do that!

The Smyth A16 seems to be the "cheapest box" I can find ($4k 😱).
A 16 channel EAS/EBU version exists, and it has e-arc and decodes Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro 3D.

Questions:

1. Am I missing something???
2. Do you have any experience with the A16?
3. Have you found a cheaper option for a minimum 12 channel Atmos solution that will trigger, say Tidal, to deliver Atmos?

I run AES driven monitors, but this "magic box" I'm looking for should equally benefit anyone who prefers to choose their own dac's.
Thanks

 

This is the magic box you need. 
 

https://www.arvus.com/atmos-h2-4d.html

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, DigiPete said:

Thanks Chris for reminding me.

I remember seeing the Arvus earlier, but it was always an "elusive" box.
Same pricing of $4-5k mentioned around but not on their homepage, pre-ordering and none for sale.
I suppose this is the price we pay for being a small subset of a subset of audiophiles (also a small subset).
Now, what bullet to bite???


 

I hear you loud and clear :~)

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

11 hours ago, DigiPete said:

Thanks Chris for reminding me.

I remember seeing the Arvus earlier, but it was always an "elusive" box.
Same pricing of $4-5k mentioned around but not on their homepage, pre-ordering and none for sale.
I suppose this is the price we pay for being a small subset of a subset of audiophiles (also a small subset).
Now, what bullet to bite???


 

Hi @DigiPete, I was thinking about this more today. I know, that’s what I do. Eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff. The issue with the Arvus going AES out is the lack of DSP if the source is something like an Apple TV. Apple TV > Arvus > AES > speakers, leaves no place for room correction. 
 

On the other hand, using the Arvus Ravenna outputs, the signal can be sent to a computer running convolution, then sent back out via Ravenna. If your speakers had Tavenna input, all would be right :~)

 

Also, if your speakers had Ravenna input, you could use a Mac with Apple Music and convolution, to send right to them. No Arvus needed. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, R1200CL said:

@The Computer Audiophile

Chris, can we expect reviews of SSP’s supporting immersive audio ?

In general, no. I will review ones that interest me for music playback as long as they can do it at a very high level. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, R1200CL said:

Those can be counted on one hand I think. 

Yes. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

As far as I know, Amazon only streams Atmos to its own speakers. Stereo to everything else.