Some experts claim the digital audio player is done.

[Doug A]

They believe phones have ended the need for DAPs. 

What is your take?

[Doug A]

Think for the average Joe this is true. For people more into sound quality, not so sure. We lost the best sounding portable (PonoPlayer) and best sounding phone (LG). Hmm. 

[LDF]

I have absolutely no music on my iPhoneXS... because it sounds like crap. But a whole lot of people out there have no taste.... in so many areas, not just what they can hear.

[Doug A]

@LDF there are levelers and sharpeners. I've had people tell me they see no difference between HD and 4K on a 65" tv. My non tech 84 year old mother has fits, if she accidentally tunes in HD channels on her 65". Wants to know why it is so fuzzy looking. I wonder what the world looks and sounds like to these people.

Thanks,

Doug A

[#Yoda#]

I think it's a question of what a DAP or cell phone is used for listening to music.

 

Personally, I bought an iPhone with a 256 GB storage to be able to play in the car a small part of my music library converted to ALAC 16-44.1/48 for it via iTunes and Apple Carplay. I cannot detect an audible sonic difference to the Ponoplayer in the aux connection, although I now drive a fairly "quiet" electric car.

 

Enjoying music with high-quality headphones, however, is something else. Here, for example, a Ponoplayer is superior to any cell phone I know, as well as most DAPs that I have heard so far.

 

Some time ago, however, I was allowed to try out a Chord Mojo for a few weeks. In combination with the iPhone, the sound was really very good, even compared to most current DAPs. The only thing missing is that the Apple Music app can also play FLAC HiRes.

[#Yoda#]

You can find a description of how to do it here: https://neilyoungarchives.com/news/6/article?id=Listen-Lets-Get-Cookin-Mojo 

[LDF]

@Doug A... I guess I don't understand why your 84 year old mother thinks HD looks "fuzzy". Is it fuzzy compared to 4K? Or fuzzy because her TV settings are messed up? Or fuzzy because she didn't have her glasses on?  Scratching my head on this one... 

[LDF]

@#Yoda#  Thanks... I have read that before on NYA... but that price tag is too high for me...  I'm sticking with my 4 PONO players for now... 

[Doug A]

On 11/25/2021 at 6:10 PM, LDF said:

@Doug A... I guess I don't understand why your 84 year old mother thinks HD looks "fuzzy". Is it fuzzy compared to 4K? Or fuzzy because her TV settings are messed up? Or fuzzy because she didn't have her glasses on?  Scratching my head on this one... 

Yep, fuzzy compared to 4K. 

[pinecone]

I just ordered one of these https://store.hiby.com/products/hiby-r3-pro-saber

Curious to how this will compare to the Pono to be paired with Sennheiser HD600 balanced.    Will report back in a few weeks once it arrives from China.

 

I also listen to streaming (non balanced) through my Pixel4a phone, using O2 amplifier.  I have to admit that this sounds good too.  But I really prefer to have files /and or vinyl lps of my music and to own the music I really like in multiple formats.  I have started ripping records to digital using audacity to compare the vinyl rips to digital.  Sometimes the vinyl rip sounds better to my ears.

[pinecone]

So the little R3 is really a beautiful little device.  I’m 100% satisfied overall.    The bottom line though is that soundwise the Pono with balanced out is still superior for most music that I listen to.   I’ve got to hand it to Ayre acoustics on that DAC.  How did they do it? And why is it that even in 2022 you still can’t get a DAP at the Pono price point that can match it?

[botrytis]

The so-called experts also said that CD's were dead, I guess they don't really get it.

[Doug A]

@pinecone it sounds so good because of the design choices Ayre and PonoMusic made. 

1. A custom digital filter designed for optimum sound quality. Most companies just use the default filter included with the DAC chip. So they all have a Sonic similarity about them.

2. The PonoPlayer was designed to do one thing - play music as it was recorded. It doesn't wifi, Bluetooth, have EQ, or sound enhancement modes. This leads to #3.

3. Discreet analog circuitry. This causes the player to be more expensive to build but sounds better. Other players are using $1.00 opamps. They have no choice but to use opamps to reduce size. They have to reduce size to cram in all the extra features mentioned in #2 above. Opamps are very unlinear and require massive amounts of negative feedback to work. Negative feedback messes up the time domain. Charley hated negative feedback.

 

This is why I bought 4 PonoPlayers. There won't be a comparable sounding player until someone builds a player the same way. People are so used to gimmicks and gadgets it isn't economically feasible, unless made in small quantities at a high price. Unfortunately, high-end audio companies aren't very interested in portable audio. I was so surprised to see Ayre get involved with Pono. Thanks to Neil Young and Charley Hansen for making it happen.

Thanks,

Doug A

[botrytis]

If the digital audio players weren't more expensive than a mini-PC and decent DAC, they may not be dying. But, the prices are ridiculous.

 

I say they are pricing themselves out of a market.

[pinecone]

Thinking back to the days when Pono came out it seems like nobody understood the actual proposition of this device, myself included.  The focus was about “high definition” music versus compressed music when it should have been about the Ayre DAC and the system Doug outlines above.   The actual selling point to me is that even cd quality music sounds a lot better when paired with good headphones, and especially in balanced mode.   The typical consumer and reviewer just didn’t understand, and Neil was constantly accused of being a “snake oil salesman” when he was actually selling a phenomenal product, one that to this day is the best in its class at its price point.  

[LDF]

Absolutely @pinecone. I jumped on the chance to get the NYLE thru kickstarter.... and when I got it and listened to the hi-res music that came on it (with normal headphones at the time not even balanced...) I knew it was special..... So then I bought a black one and a yellow one so I could have one in the living room and one portable one with me..... then when I got the chance to buy one of the final few clear ones from Phil Baker I jumped on that too. Now my NYLE and the clear one stay in it's collectable box in the closet, coming out periodically for me to check the charge level. And I could not be happier that I scored all 4. So yes, the device is wonderful.  And I will always wonder what would have happened with the PonoMusic website had Apple not bought the rug out from under them. However it did prove to others that there is a market for hi-res audio.... and Neil was truly vindicated when Amazon jumped on the hi-res train.  Do you subscribe to the NeilYoungArchives.com site? If not, I suggest you check it out.

[pinecone]

Even though the Pono does objectively sound better in most cases, I'm still really enjoying the HiBy R3 Pro Saber device.  I find it pairs will with my HD6XX headphones in balanced mode and is "fun to use and listen to".   The R3 has tons of power.  In balanced mode I rarely can set the volume above 50%.  The 650s are "easier listening" headphones and less accurate than the HD600 which I prefer with the Pono.  They seem to pair well since they don't analyze the source as closely as the 600s do on this lesser DAC.  The Pono is my "first love" but I still allow my self some love affairs "on the side" here.  

 

I can't really say the R3 sounds a lot better than listening from my Android Pixel 4a phone through my O2 objective amp to drive the Sennheisers --it's just more fun to use.  I don't feel like I'm on my cell phone, which for some reason, matters when I'm attempting to listen to music without a lot of distraction.  So I guess what I'm saying, I think having a DAP still is a nice thing --even if it's not as good as a Pono, not a super high end one.  It's nice to have a device that is dedicated to music and isn't a phone, one that provides a good interface, can effortlessly hold thousands of files and also stream.  I would like to try some of the more expensive DAPs, but I can't really justify it --except in the name of geekery.

[Doug A]

1 hour ago, pinecone said:

Even though the Pono does objectively sound better in most cases, I'm still really enjoying the HiBy R3 Pro Saber device.  I find it pairs will with my HD6XX headphones in balanced mode and is "fun to use and listen to".   The R3 has tons of power.  In balanced mode I rarely can set the volume above 50%.  The 650s are "easier listening" headphones and less accurate than the HD600 which I prefer with the Pono.  They seem to pair well since they don't analyze the source as closely as the 600s do on this lesser DAC.  The Pono is my "first love" but I still allow my self some love affairs "on the side" here.  

 

I can't really say the R3 sounds a lot better than listening from my Android Pixel 4a phone through my O2 objective amp to drive the Sennheisers --it's just more fun to use.  I don't feel like I'm on my cell phone, which for some reason, matters when I'm attempting to listen to music without a lot of distraction.  So I guess what I'm saying, I think having a DAP still is a nice thing --even if it's not as good as a Pono, not a super high end one.  It's nice to have a device that is dedicated to music and isn't a phone, one that provides a good interface, can effortlessly hold thousands of files and also stream.  I would like to try some of the more expensive DAPs, but I can't really justify it --except in the name of geekery.

I agree. Also have a HifiMan and an ultra tiny Shanling M0. They use negative feedback which drops output impedance. The PonoPlayer isn't always happy with 6+ driver per side IEMs. Higher output impedance can cause more frequency response variations. Some would say earphones shouldn't be designed with that many drivers. That's another discussion.