red or blue pill - Part II?

[semente]

17 hours ago, mansr said:

I offered to bring my own audio interface and run it in pass-through mode between the DAC and amp. I was told this wouldn't work for vague reasons.

 

I think that Mani was right to refuse this.

[semente]

4 hours ago, manisandher said:

I reckon a 10-run ABX would take around 10-12 minutes. I'd go for 3 of these in total, with a small break between each.

 

Did you get torture-endurance training in the special forces?

[semente]

16 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

another comparison you might consider is a set of 10-run ABX for ~10-12 minutes each vs. longer listening passages compared to each other

 

this is another thing where people claim one type of test is better than the other, but without any testing

 

 

 

I don't think it would be productive to use two different methods in the same day. But it would be interesting.

[semente]

12 hours ago, Archimago said:

 

Interesting how you're viewing this Frank. Obviously in science one can utilize all kinds of methodologies to ascertain the results. Biology and medicine are complicated and involve huge arrays of variables and results can change based on further awareness of things previously unappreciated. There are also experiments in medicine one simply cannot do due to ethical considerations which makes finding clear answers more difficult.

 

Computers, digital audio, amplifiers, etc... are based on physics and these are engineered devices of course. Challenges are different as well.

 

When you were making the statement earlier about:

"The huge failure of the "scientific method" with many of things it tries to test about human behaviours is that it doesn't want to know about human adaptability, loss of interest, and fatigue levels...".

 

And then that:

"Personally, I rely on the coming to a situation in a refreshed, "will now turn my attention to this" state, and see what my immediate, 'gut' reaction is telling me..."

 

I'm curious as to what failure in the the science of audio you're referring to? And what answers have you been able to ascertain that is based on the advice of your "gut"? Are these answers that you found generalizable to everyone or are they your own? I've also seen your blog... Have you been able to succinctly document your principles in any specific post?

 

I think that with "scientific method" he means the fallibility or limited effectiveness of A-B listening assessment testing, and if this is so I would agree with him.

[semente]

37 minutes ago, manisandher said:

Peter, a question for you: If the ear can detect the difference (assuming proven by the ABX), why can't we measure it, either at the output of the DAC, or in the listening room with a microphone? Is it that the measurement device (in this case the ADC) simply isn't resolving enough (THD+N, clock stability, etc), or is it that the measurement device is simply measuring the wrong thing, and therefore not fit for purpose? If the latter is the case, then my earlier suggested loop-back tests will prove pointless - I could get the best-measuring ADC on the planet, and it still wouldn't find any difference between the analogue outputs.

 

If there are differences would they most likely be captureable at the DAC output?

Is there a chance that the cause of such differences would produce some sort of interaction downstream with pre- or power-amplification?

 

What is the chance of the A/D process masking (allegedly) audible but hard to explain differences (jitter, filtering, noise-shaping, my knowledge is too limited to suggest potential causes)?

Will capturing the output affect the audibility of the differences?

 

Is it possible to compare both the original digital waveform and the digitalised capture?

How accurate and resolving is such a comparison?

Which parameters other than frequency response might be at play here and can be measured/compared?

[semente]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Maybe, but as long as the difference is audible during the capture, it doesn't matter.

 

You mean if manisander can still hear the difference when comparing both captures?

Yes, that makes sense.