Building a DIY Music Server

[exeric2]

On 7/27/2020 at 11:17 AM, Nenon said:

 

 

Keep in mind that this motherboard uses only one 12V rail. The 12V from the ATX connector, the 2 x 12 Volts on the EPS connector and the 12V on the third connector are all connected in parallel. If you use two 12V power supplies, there might be some strange consequences as you are basically putting the output of two power supplies in parallel. 

 

This was one of the strange consequences in my case :):

 

If it helps, I ended up using a one rail 12.5A LPS that can deliver up to 45A of instantaneous peaks. I feed the 12V on the 24-pin ATX and the two EPS connectors from that LPS. It's similar to the one @elan120 built but with DC4 specs and a few other extras. Normally, it draws around 6-7A while playing music. But that depends on your software too. 

 

Hi, newbie here that has been following along. I plan to reproduce Nenon's Asus Crosshair version with Ryzen CPU. I have many of the parts in hand and others are on order. One thing I haven't been able to order is the HDPlex 800 watt dc-atx converter. They are not in stock anywhere and no update from them when they will be in stock. I know Nenon was not impressed with the sound using the HDPlex 400 dc-atx but I'm thinking I may try it.

 

Here's the question: I'd like to use the 400 dc-atx but not use +12V output from it to the motherboard. I have a dual rail LPS coming with 12V and 19V rails. I'd originally planned to use the 12 rail to only go to the EPS connector. I'd like to now feed the 12V atx connection from that same LPS 12 rail. Would there be a problem doing that. The only one I can imagine happening is with different grounds going to the atx connection on the motherboard, one from the LPS 12 rail and one from the atx ground that is being fed from the other 19v rail of the same LPS. Could this be a problem? I realize this might be going into the weeds but does anyone know what some of the different grounds on the atx connector are linked to. If there is one specifically linked to the 12V input on the motherboard atx connector I could supply that ground straight from the 12v LPS rail...

[exeric2]

10 minutes ago, dminches said:

 

The 800W DC-ATX does not have a 12v input.  Is that what you are thinking of doing?  The DC-ATX needs to be fed by a 16-63V input.  It has 2 sides and thus can be fed by 2 16-63V rails if you are going to use a lot of outputs from it.

 

 

I understand that. I'm a newbie to this thread but not to electronics. I'm going to do exactly as Nenon implemented it. The only exception will be to wire the two +12v inputs on the motherboard's atx  connection to the 12V EPS connection. 19V will power the 400 dc-atx. 3.3V and 5V on the motherboard will still come from the 400 dc-atx.

[exeric2]

27 minutes ago, Downtheline said:

Try emailing Larry, I did when the site said no stock a few months ago, but he had some to sell. 

I think I'm going to try the 400 dc-atx, unless someone gives me a convincing argument about the separate ground issue I mentioned. If the ground issue only comes down to "general principles" and not to causing it not to work then I'd like to try this. It always bothered me getting the 800 because I'm paying $200 over the 400 mostly for having multiple Sata and PCI outputs, which I don't even plan on using. The PCI cards will be powered from a separate 5V LPS. I'm sure the 800 has more power and better regulation than the 400 but I'm guessing that offloading the 12V output might create significant benefits that lessens its "effective" inferiority.

 

Anyway, it will be a learning experience, which is good. I'd hate to do exactly what someone else has done and not contribute to community knowledge about what does not work as well as what does work.

[exeric2]

12 minutes ago, Nenon said:

As for trying to get a HDPlex 800W DC-ATX, email Larry. He gets small batches and sells them via email. Have him add you to the waiting list, and you would be able to get one faster this way. 

Who is this infamous Larry? Does he have an email address? It seems everyone here knows about him but me.

[exeric2]

7 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

He is the man running HDPlex. 

https://hdplex.com/contact/

 

Thanks, I'll get on the list.

[exeric2]

44 minutes ago, exeric2 said:

Who is this infamous Larry? Does he have an email address? It seems everyone here knows about him but me.

That's too funny. You guys all made it sound like you were on a first name basis with the boss by just calling him "Larry". But that's his email name.

[exeric2]

Just an update to what I said earlier on this very interesting thread from Nenon. I decided to go with his recommendation to keep independent LPSs to CPU and ATX power. In my case I'll be using a dual rail SR7T Paul Hynes LPS of 19 and 12 volts with the 19 volt rail supplying the HDPlex 800 to motherboard ATX connection and the 12 volt rail to the CPU/EPS connection. This seems to make sense to me on further reflection. I'll be using a separate dual rail SR5T to supply 5 volts to a JCAT netcard and JCAT USB card. I'm foregoing the motherboard clock replacement at this time. It's going to be months and months to get the PH LPS's in my greedy little hands, as well as to get the HDPlex 800 (I suspect) so don't expect updates from me anytime soon. Nenon blazed the trail here so my update is not as important.

[exeric2]

1 hour ago, genvirt said:

Just got a note from Larry

https://hdplex.com/hdplex-800w-dc-atx-with-16v-63vdc-input.html

It comes back in stock for ordering.

Thanks for letting us know. This is great news.

[exeric2]

2 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

This is a very complex topic and you may not like my answer.

 

The first problem is that the tweaks needed for a single CPU are different than the tweaks needed for a dual CPU server. At that point you are not comparing apples to apples. Also, every CPU sounds different. The Intel Xeon Silver 4210 CPUs used by Taiko (and me now) sound really good. It's the best midrange I have heard from any CPU, no matter if it is a single CPU or a dual CPU configuration. On the other hand, the AMD Ryzen has better highs. But less density and different bass.

Add a tweaked Buffalo switch to the Ryzen server system, and a lot of the density and bass is back. There is just so many ways to tweak a source and the more you know, the more complex it gets. 

 

I would like to say that generally speaking dual CPUs and more cores sound better. But that would not be exactly accurate. Here is an example why. If you compare the specs between the Intel Xeon Silver 4210 and the Intel Xeon Silver 4214, you would notice that the main differences are that the 4214 has more cores/threads and more cache. Knowing that Emile has compared the two, I asked him a question here: https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-165#post-640513

Surprisingly, the answer was that Emile did not like the higher spec'ed 4214 CPU and prefered to stay with the lower cores 4210. I already had the 4214 added to my shopping cart when I asked that question but had to take another route after seeing his response.

 

So generally speaking more power, more cores, more threads, more CPUs, higher speeds is better, but that's given that everything else is equal. The problem is everything else is never equal. 

 

And lastly, everything is dependent on the power supply. If you don't have a good power supply, none of these powerful CPUs would perform well. I can't agree more with @hifi25nl

 

Sorry for not giving you a Yes/No answer. It's just not that simple. 

This is very interesting. I'm beginning to get very interested in implementing a motherboard/processor around the 4210 CPU after hearing this from Emile. I'm pretty thoroughly confused on some things though.  Is it correct that the single CPU motherboard for the 4210 corresponding to Emile's build is this one by ASUS? https://www.asus.com/us/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/Z11PA-U12/specifications/

 

It seems like it is but in the specifications it seems like there are some anomalies I don't understand.

1. It does not mention any M.2 slots, but only U.2 slots and something called oculink. I'm not familiar with that standard or which one is better. I just purchased an 1 tb M.2 NVMD and it would definitely be a bummer to not be able to use it on that motherboard.

 

2. I also bought a 32 gb Optane module but it doesn't mention Optane support. Does it have it and how would that affect the implementation and increased memory traffic if it didn't?

 

Edit: I just found out that motherboard has it. They call it RSDe for (r)apid (s)torage (t)echnology for (e)nterprise

 

3. It only supports Rdimm memory in the sizes I'd use. Is that available with industrial high temp ECC memory like the ones that you prefer? (forgot the company name) Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

[exeric2]

I guess I should add that I'm only interested in the single CPU motherboard to avoid the complexities involved with the double CPU version of Emile's

[exeric2]

15 hours ago, exeric2 said:

This is very interesting. I'm beginning to get very interested in implementing a motherboard/processor around the 4210 CPU after hearing this from Emile. I'm pretty thoroughly confused on some things though.  Is it correct that the single CPU motherboard for the 4210 corresponding to Emile's build is this one by ASUS? https://www.asus.com/us/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/Z11PA-U12/specifications/

 

It seems like it is but in the specifications it seems like there are some anomalies I don't understand.

1. It does not mention any M.2 slots, but only U.2 slots and something called oculink. I'm not familiar with that standard or which one is better. I just purchased an 1 tb M.2 NVMD and it would definitely be a bummer to not be able to use it on that motherboard.

 

2. I also bought a 32 gb Optane module but it doesn't mention Optane support. Does it have it and how would that affect the implementation and increased memory traffic if it didn't?

 

Edit: I just found out that motherboard has it. They call it RSDe for (r)apid (s)torage (t)echnology for (e)nterprise

 

3. It only supports Rdimm memory in the sizes I'd use. Is that available with industrial high temp ECC memory like the ones that you prefer? (forgot the company name) Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

Well, I guess the Asus single CPU motherboard equivalent to the Taiko Extreme DOES have a single M.2 slot. I just missed it. So all good except that a PCI adapter for a second M.2 memory module is required if I want to use my already purchased M.2 1G memory card for music storage on the server. Not a problem.

 

That only leaves the question of where do you get Apacer ECC Rdimm. Anyone? I'm mostly thinking out loud here and haven't committed to a build with this motherboard and cpu. For me it's easy to become bogged down in the physical requirements of housing a 2 CPU motherboard in a custom case. I'd rather not go there. There's also the very real question of why not just buy an Extreme if one goes to that length. Also, I have nowhere close to the ability to match Emile's customization of memory cards or, for that matter, his understanding of the interplay of software and hardware optimization. Without that knowledge and expertise I would think it makes much more sense to commit to a lesser chunk of money for a DIY project. 

 

Let's face it. We all know 99% of us won't match the Extreme in all it's hardware and software optimizations. I know I don't have the ability to do that. If you need to go there then just buy the Extreme! I think a DIYer has the ability to make the best server that is currently available outside of the Extreme using the single CPU version of Emile's chosen motherboard and CPU and then doing the thing people here know best - trying different things. And besides, where's the fun in going all out just to perfectly copy Emile's hardware design when one knows it will come up short anyway?

 

 

 

[exeric2]

This is an interesting topic about transformer power. I'm interested in  the  Taiko ATX power supply.  It seems like the minimum requirement for transformer power rating would "not" be what is required for peak dissipation but for steady state power during the playing of music. Capacitance can supply peak loads. But that steady state power can change drastically depending on what voltage outputs of the ATX you are availing yourself of. If you are using it to power all the internal cards it would be significantly different than if you are powering the cards from an independent LPS.

 

What I'm getting at is this: I won't be getting the Asus Sage MB dual cpu solution for financial and available space reasons. I'll be sticking with an Asus Ryzen Crosshair 8 for now with a AMD 3950x processor.  I also plan on powering the USB and NIC cards from an outboard LPS (Paul Hynes SR5). I'm wondering if there are some smart people out there who would estimate the average power dissipation that would be the minimum required for a transformer powering just the ATX connection and a seperate LPS for the EPS connection, ( there are separate connectors for the Crosshair MB). Am also wondering what the total dissipation would be using the 12V coming from the Taiko ATX power when it is powering the CPU also.

 

Of course the implicit assumption is that Nenon using the minimum steady state transformer power dissipation for required for good sound might be scalable to other platforms with different power consumption.  That might be a totally bad assumption but would be really good to know one way or another.

[exeric2]

I probably did not express myself well. I wasn't trying to incorporate all the intricacies of how an ATX power supply handled processes in the motherboard because I know very little about that. I mostly don't care either. I just noted Nenon's finding that an approximately 340 VA transformer sounded best powering the Taiko ATX on an Asus Sage dual processor. All I was looking to do was equate that size transformer to a different motherboard using a different processor. 

 

I don't even know if Nenon Taiko ATX is powering the processors and the MB or if it's just powering the MB alone. That would make a huge difference in the transformer power requirement feeding the Taiko ATX PS that is feeding the whole thing.  I'm trying to get an idea what is required.  To add to the problem I won't even be using that motherboard or processor. If you think that's a trivial problem to figure out the transformer power rating feeding the Taiko ATX then you're a better man than I am.

[exeric2]

18 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

- If you you do passive cooling, I would stick to 300 to 400VA. Chances are the passive cooling will throttle before the power supply.

- If you do active cooling with crazy power hungry processors (120W TDP or more) that are constantly pegged, I am not sure what you need. Maybe 500-600VA. But as I explained 500-600VA did not sound better. Perhaps consult with Taiko first if that's your use case.

 

For most cases, I would stick to the 300-400VA range.

And I highly recommend the Noratel transformer Emile ordered for us. 

I am powering the motherboard and EPS from the Taiko ATX. It sounds better this way. 

That sounds good. I'm planning on using some advice earlier in this thread where it was said that if you limited the voltage to the CPU to 1.25V (even on peaks) that one could keep the temps down to around 50C.  I'm planning on that working and keeping my fingers crossed. The AMD Ryzen 9 3950 draws 105 watts at idle. I'm planning on just squeaking by with the Plex chassis heat sink.

[exeric2]

12 hours ago, Topk said:

I posted this. A few comments on what happened since:

- if you have a big budget and you can find inventory, the new AMD 5 series is likely even better than the 3 series 
- I’m now running my 3950x at a locked speed of 4ghz (technically, it is overclocked) and locked voltage at around 1.2V. 

- stock HDplex heatsink but Kryonaut thermal paste everywhere 

- 2.8A consumption on Keces P8 single rail

- CPU temperature is 48 degrees. Playing music right now (no upsampling)...

- I do recommend an acrylic lid with holes and/or the fans discussed above or other strategies to keep heat as low as possible

- I do recommend a LPS with strong amperage at the very least 8A and higher amperage is better (I can explain in more details why in PM if you want, happy to help)

Hi, I knew it wasn't Nenon that posted that info. I really did appreciate it though. I have a "sleeper" audio system because I have a relatively small home, 1000 sf, and I didn't want the system to dominate my space. I installed a bookshelf spanning a long wall with cabinets with glass fronts below it. The cabinets are 24"deep and house all my system components but the bookshelf above it has a false back that is covered with acoustic fabric. Behind that fabric are 3 bass tube traps which are hidden by the fabric.  Also behind the fabric is an insulated flexible duct that has an 80 cfm fan in the attic on one end. On the other end it connects to the top of the cabinets. There are cutouts in the toe kick of the cabinet that allows air to move through the cabinet with the fan on. The air moves from bottom to top.

 

It works really well to cool the components that are in there right now. The fan sound isn't any louder than air moving through air conditioning ducts. It's pretty quiet. I've made a cut out in the shelves in the cabinet to accommodate the location of the heat sink on all component and also the HDPlex chassis so it will essentially be doing what you are doing with external fans. It's a very clean looking setup. It took a while to get everything right and still look good and camouflage the odd bits.

[exeric2]

I currently have a PH SR-7 with 12 and 19 volt rails to power the motherboard and CPU. I'm pretty sure it can handle the load. I haven't actually installed it yet but I expect it to sound excellent. I still think a voltage regulator is kind of a brute force method and don't like the energy inefficiency of that brute force method on a high load computer. If I could get something that is comparable in sound, preferably even better, that is also very efficient that would be great. I think most of us aren't that conscious of the high carbon footprint that our hobby has.

[exeric2]

11 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

@exeric2 that is a creative, thoughtful solution. Well done.

 

Do you run it seasonally to dissipate heat, or any time you're running?

Thanks. I run it whenever the system is running. Sometimes I forget to turn the fan on and things warm up quickly!

[exeric2]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

I've also compared the DC4 to a standard SR7 (and other people have posted about that too). What I have not managed to do is to compare the DC4 to the unobtainable Paul Hynes custom dual regulated SR7 XLR power supply (which is way better than the standard single regulated SR7). That's the only test I am personally interested in. 

I misspoke earlier to Topk when I said that I had an SR7. I looked back at my records and I have the SR7T twin regulated PS. I also have the SR5T double 5 volt rail double regulated version to run my JCAT net card and usb card.

[exeric2]

One thing I'd like to know, on motherboards that have separate EPS +12 volt and ATX +12 volt connections do you have to disconnect the +12 v connection at the output of the ATX power supply if you want to power the CPU separate from the motherboard? Sorry if that's a newb question. I guess I'm a newb.

[exeric2]

7 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Depends on the motherboard design. In most of the Supermicro motherboards and also Asus C621, you would have to - they are just wired in parallel. Most, if not all, gaming motherboards, they are independent rails for a reason and it would not boot if you don't connect the EPS since there is no power to CPU.

Thanks.  I have an Asus ROG motherboard so I guess that means I don't have to cut it.  Great. If not it would mean a lot of fiddling with connecting and disconnecting that ATX 12 volt power while experimenting with different schemes.