The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[Clockmeister]

From personal experience I would say that a good power supply improves the Uptone regen unit enough to warrant purchasing one. Having tried one or two and each one having their own effects on the resultant SQ.

 

 

[Clockmeister]

• For all of you state side guys try Chris @ Vh Audio

https://www.vhaudio.com/search.html?ss360Query=fuses

 

 

[Clockmeister]

22 minutes ago, LEO SOUND said:

Because I unplugged my etherregen last night because I plugged in a new 12-volt FARAD linear power supply.
Is it like a clock where the burn in process starts all over again?

Hello Leo

 

I would suggest that a genuine 1 fad supply with take a significantly long time to burn in while only drawing around 1 amp, a good few days @ 10 amps on a DC would be helpful here 🙂

[Clockmeister]

Apologies Leo

 

I meant to say DC load, the keyboard in the lab is pretty dire and I have large hands so my spelling and word omissions are not so good. Any power supply we fabricate, we have a lab soak test procedure that involves, stress testing and  minimum of 48 hour 3/4 load running time, which significantly reduces the run in time you the end user has to endure! 

[Clockmeister]

I shall watch this thread with interest

[Clockmeister]

I am the odd one out, not requiring any RJ45 connections or sata cables to play music via FBA, however the ether regen for the outlay does make a positive different to a great deal of digital playback systems.

 

One comment I will suggest that most systems are overly complicated and use a lot of sticking plasters, however the most important aspect is simple DO you like what it does, if so then music would your next purchase.

 

 

[Clockmeister]

8 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

To bring even more variety to the discussion. For me, adding a Ref-10 as an external clock to the etherREGEN did not improve things. This surprised me because of the positive comments here of adding an external clock. I suspect this has to do with the up- and downstream components relative to ER in my system. Downstream: dCS Network Bridge and the Chord DAVE DAC. The dCS NB re-clocks the incoming signal again and it is also buffering. Upstream: Sonore opticalModule fed by LPS1.2. This unit also re-clocks to my knowledge.

 

A

 

Some interesting observations Skatbelt, I have come across two situations in the last three years where a ref10 did not make a positive difference to a system. Both cases the system was in a much smaller listening area and the sound staging could not form correctly.

 

We have a few clients which use the same digital sources as your self, they all use a ref10, however they also use a an MC3+usb between the DCS & Dave, the MC3+usb can output a pcm reference world clock derived from the incoming sample rate (ie 44.1khz & 48Kz multiples) which is then fed back into the dcs (which has two clock inputs and you can use two outputs form the Mutec MC3+ one for each multiple)

 

This brings a double benefit of of having the PCM data stream reclocked, plus a work clock input to the DCS as well.

Also you can really improve this by using the Ref10 to slave the MC3+.

You are going to mention using two separate XLR pcm data streams into the Dave, however you maybe surprised by just one reclocked XLR input.

 

if you wished to be top draw then a pair of MC3+usb's would really take you up another level and then some.

 

One question though, are you using the DSP in the Lyndorf for room correction?

[Clockmeister]

7 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

 

 

I don't see the direct benefits of adding a MC3+ usb between dCS NB and DAVE. To output USB? I now use AES/EBU between dCS and DAVE and feel blessed that I have been able to drop USB as a protocol and connection type. Too brittle, too sensitive, too many dependencies in my experience.

Hello Skatbelt

 

the benefit is very positive you would be using the aes output into the Mc3+usb then using its reclocking ability to improve the Dcs then output Aes again the usb model delivers superior performance to the noi usb model

 

you would not be using the usb input at all

 

I also agree that USB audio is not the best method of moving PCM

 

Our customer base has many full stack Dcs customers and every one has some Mutec products in benefitting their system usually the ref 10 slaving the Dcs Vivaldi clock or those who are really looking for top draw performance use two mc3+usb's one to clock each aes stream and slaved to an SE-120

 

I have never ever come across a backwards result with a ref10, sideways yes though this was due to other contributing factors

 

our company designs digital audio products,specialist green energy research and power supplies for IoT and milspec applications. We also have extensive serial data experianes with in depth power analysis and jitter reduction techniques one of the Mutec ref10's is used as a reference signal distribution in the lab for the  scopes/real time spectrum analysers / vector network analysis and dc power investigations

 

 

 

I use two Mutec ref 10 SE-120 clocks one in the audio system and one on the lab.

 

we also have around 12 reference clocks of various frequencies from very modest to company acquisition level

 

so we are well versed in all aspects of serial data signal integrity including full TDR transmission line measurements and design

 

genuinely though the Dave responds well to reclocking/cables and mains treatments imho

 

 

 

 

[Clockmeister]

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

 

i) soundstage spread out and height increases

ii) removal of crud exposes to subtleties with small details in the music ('more air'), brushes and percussion more pronounced

iii) If there's depth in the recording, is available

iv) drums actually can sound like drums

v) instrument positioning with stability (no wandering)

 

I feel there's more unfinished pioneering work with computer audio, the weaknesses are not so much the DAC nowadays, but the source, computers, hard drives and their power supplies. 

 

Nail, head interface 200%

 

However they have been a few companies doing this for quite a few years, however they tended to be non audio companies looking into these areas for other reasons.

 

Think about this logically why would you require a great deal of computing power to actually achieve what is little more than very low level data transfer, very basic file organisation and one or two interface outputs beats me.

 

The amount of unnecessary crud (electrical interference) flying around a pc mother board is bad enough with a basic pc lol.

 

Let alone you guys putting crap Ethernet signal into them, as with all of these upgrades what you are trying to achieve is the removal of the vast majority of all electrical, radio frequency, electromagnetic, vibration and thermal interference.

 

With the impedending advent of new PCIE 5 standard (which is currently at def con 0.9) and PCIE 6 at def con 0.4) PCIE 5 capable of duplex lanes of standard four so 32GB/s and the six will be capable of double that again, the way data is transferred and the methodology will quite something all those days. New pathway configuration are being developed all the time due to and data corruption from higher transfer speeds, more lanes and transmission line issues.

 

Of all of the current audio playback devices this far Taiko extreme is more down the road than any other I have experienced to this point, still quite a bit room for improvement, but they at least are recognising the main issues with using a PC based audio source system imho.

 

No we do not sell them, but I could listen to one for my second system no problem.

 

The main issues are signal integrity from the incoming ethernet, to PCM data between the various boxes, low level digital signals are more susceptible to the electrical environments they travel in with regard to audio devices imho.

 

It is interesting to see the various way each individual address these situations great work from all of you guys, nice to see ingenuity at work

 

What we are going to be performing in the next few weeks bench testing of a product  we have been developing for while, we are currently waiting for an Ethernet  Rx & Tx fixtures so we can test not just transmission protocols but physical testing as well full jitter lanes for master and slave.

 

Happy to show before and after on the e.Regen with stock psu and no clock etc.

 

 

[Clockmeister]

1 hour ago, MarkusBarkus said:

@ClockmeisterDo you find optical helps with these negative aspects of signal flow/processing?  
 

In my case, I have fiber ISP, a little copper out of the ONT to an FMC and fiber the rest of the way (and into Taiko). 
 

Is fiber a better solution, when available, in your experience? Enjoying your insights quite a bit, thank you very much!

Hello Markus

 

With regards to your question on light source data transfer, theoretically once the data is inside the 'light pipe' short of being bombarded with silly frequencies and hyper power rf amplifiers or emp pulses the data should remain corruption free.

 

I personally have zero need for ethernet RJ45 protocol in my personal systems as I use custom designed and built storage devices located in the PCIE slots horizontally mounted, with individual rail supplies and total decoupling of each pcie rail. enough for 8Tb per card.

 

Quick history lesson, Wadia were the first consumer audio company to use AT&T glass optic for a dedicated clock tx/rx slave master clocking system back in the late 90's on the 270/27i combination.

 

It seemed to work well, with all but a few audiophiles opting for straight AES output, I had a few fail when I was looking after them, and have replaced quite a few of the dedicated AT&T modules.

 

However you are adding another conversion process into the equation, by converting the electrical signal <> light source then back again, the issue arises in that conversions stages.

 

I built a few trick psu's at that time (some 20 years ago showing age now lol) and that did improve matters, as  did the 'Orange light pipe' instead of the grey one lol, but it really did sound better!!

 

Maybe the refractive index  was marginally better??????? 🧐 who knows!

 

Ok, I have clients with fibre convertors who really do swear by them, however when you look at their individual circumstances, they routers are across the house some 30m or so from the listening space, so I suspect it helps there yes pretty sure it has a positive effect.

 

Also if you have a non option Ethernet of power sockets then again I would look at these alternatives. If internet streaming is your primary source.

 

I can cite this example, one of our demonstration suites systems we have the full subscription services (tidal LOL) for clients who are interested in streaming devices, we are very fortunate we have a 300Mb pipe for internet data  genuinely have at least 280M on a bad day.

 

The router is situated some 8m above the listening room and uses a very specific Cat8 cable I have further grounded (0 volt reference) and shielded.

 

It sounds pretty fair more than enough to demonstrate audio to perspective purchases for streaming item, now before you chaps jump up and down and go but I use x switch with this power supply, this re-clocking RJ45 device in triple tandem with a $20K mains conditioner and $8K master clock just feeding the incoming Ethernet stream etc.

 

I have noticed on here some chaps have spent a small fortune on the IP infrastructure BEFORE you get to any streaming device or playback unit.

 

Having listened to a get many systems I am under no illusion they do bring positive benefits to that persons listening experience.

 

We have one client who is an IT genius he works for those people we cannot comment on here in the UK, with regard to IT info structure, networking and interfaces, this chap has probably forgotten more than I or 99.999% of the population will ever know in this area. Lets just say his Ethernet delivery system only is well over £20K GBP before any connection to the audio system. Every possible aspect has been address from specially constructed fully shielded in wall mounted sockets, dedicated in wall trucking, trick psu everywhere, a monster reference and the very best RJ45b cabling etc.

 

Is he obsessive, Oh yes!, does he go farther than most sane people would even if cost was virtually no object and then some. However it is his system, his design and it is the way he wishes it to be, customer is correct 98.2% of the time!

 

Back to the light pipe, I have to give credit to Martin T for this little gem, Ok we have a decent fibre IP provider, that delivers, I use a modest 4G mobile (cell for our US cousins)  router cost around £200, I have performed some internal restructuring, made a small semi faraday cadge for its  RJ45 output rails, yes it does have a very trick single rail 12Vdc power supply no question, it then runs a very short 0.85 RJ45 cable to the streamer unit (for customer demos) I have also improved electrical isolation and the output socket itself having removed the rest of them plus a nifty re-clocking latch . It makes a total Mockery of the internet fibre, you can place an e.Regen on the incoming fibre line, still not as good (yes it without question improves that data line) But remember 99% of customers will have  standard internet service and infrastructure.

 

Before you guys go you are knocking the E,regen, NO I am not, I have always stated it works and works very well for the cost it delivers big performance for cost no question at all.

 

My point is, that I do not use streaming as critical listening so this negates the use of all of the Ethernet clean up devices for myself, have I put a e.Regen on the 4G router yes, it does make a difference but not in the same way it does on the fibre 300M pipe.

 

If you have a good 4 or 5G mobile signal, then try it, you will only ever have just your audio streaming on that router, totally isolated from the rest of house.

 

So the fibre light pipe converters I can see working in quite a few instances for different reasons yes

 

 

 

 

 

[Clockmeister]

Interesting another network switch deep joy