Article: LessLoss Echo’s End Reference DAC Full Review

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Somehow, Less Loss makes me think of Less Nessman. 

From the Less Loss Echo's End page:

 We always know that sonic performance has primarily to do with Jitter reduction, and that Jitter is always going to be contended, since it is impossible to measure with authority. We work by ear where the lab equipment can’t follow. 

 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Just FYI—as it is not mentioned in the review:

The LessLoss DACs are based on this Soekris ladder DAC DIY module:

http://www.soekris.dk/dam1021.html

 

Wow! What's a pretty face (box) worth?

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53 minutes ago, Danny Kaey said:

 

Well let’s see. Go find a supplier of genuine Panzerholz, have them give you a quote for a case the size of this DAC. Once you have that number, add another zero to it, because by the time you actually have the chassis you want, you’ll probably go through 20 revisions. Then, once you took out a second mortgage on your home, carefully source all the other parts, because this isn’t a review of the Soekris DAC modules. Once you have all those parts, the pretty box and DAC modules, find an engineer who will put it all together for you. Finally, when you’re done, shoot me an email and send one for review and let’s see what you put together.

 

Is that fair enough?

 

PS: of course, you don’t have to go for the Reference edition either; I bet the Original Echo’s End for $5342 sounds great too... 

 

😎

There is maybe $2-300 of Panzerholz in that case.  That wouldn't include the machining of it.  But a CNC will do that just fine.  And I could make prototypes of another material until satisfied with the shape.   Might need to mortgage the dog house.  Couldn't get a second mortgage on my house or the dog house as I don't have a first one.   Don't need an engineer to assemble it either.  

 

So I don't see $20k in the gear.  As already said, if it sounds good and you are happy fine.  But considering the very heart of this multi-bit DAC is a relatively affordable Soekris I'm straining to see where the extra money came in.  I realize small runs are more expensive and don't expect anyone to sell their product for parts cost.  I believe Soekris makes two versions, one having tighter resistor tolerance.  Just as a guess maybe the non-reference version uses that.  You also can't tell from the website, but is the Original in the same case made of the same material?  

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10 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I certainly hear what people are saying about parts cost and final product cost but we’ve been down this path before many times. 

 

There are so many things that go into the price of a product that people conveniently leave out. These aren’t made by 10 year olds in a third world country. LessLoss builds these in a location that likely has some monthly fees to keep the roof over its head. It likely has a bunch of stock that it can’t sell in the event that there are failures down the road. The company likely participates in expensive trade shows. I could go on, but the cost of doing business is more than the sum of the products parts. 

 

 

I already said I didn't expect people to sale products for cost of parts.  For all the reasons you list. Yet there is some link to parts cost and final product cost.  All of those things are true of Soekris as well.  Yet I can purchase a finished product with the same board in it for a small fraction of the cost.  They've got a more expensive box, and some other parts, but it still kind of takes my breath away to see inside and think $20k?????  That is okay, but it sure would be nice if someone did a comparative review of the Soekris as offered and this expensive version.  

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5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I certainly hear you. 

 

I like comparisons as well but I’m not sure the Soekris is the only selling point of this DAC. 

 

$20k ain’t cheap that’s for sure, but I’ve yet to see a product like this anywhere else. 

Other than the unusual case material, and the price what is so unlike any other product?  

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17 minutes ago, Danny Kaey said:

 

C’mon, you can say the same about every product ever made and reviewed, here or elsewhere... 

Not every product, but yes the huge majority of them.  

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14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Wow, I look at this product as a whole, taking everything into consideration, and can’t think of another one like it. 

 

I'm honestly lost as to what you see that is different.  Can you elaborate? 

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56 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Sure digital goes in and analog comes out. But I believe this DAC is very unique. 

 

Think of all the things people may value when it comes to a product of any kind. I’m not saying I value all of these, just that this DAC has differences from others with respect to these as a whole. 

 

Craftsmanship

Are you saying the Soekris has none.

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Materials

The case okay, otherwise I'm not wowed by what is in there. 

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Component selection

Well they did select the Soekris multi-bit to base it upon. 

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Hand made 

I don't think I see anything hand made other than the point to point wiring.  Someone assembled it. 

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Made in Europe

Soekris' designer is Danish.  He lives in Europe.  One of his factories is in California, but I'm not sure on his DACs.  I think they are European. 

 

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Plus, is there another DAC with these? Not saying I value all of them, but I know some are unique to this DAC. 

 

Echo's End Reference

Solid Panzerholz enclosure (it does the same thing for sensitive gear that it does for natural sound used for speakers).

Grounded custom hand made carbon fiber transformer shroud (really lowers the noise floor down to incredible stability at very high frequencies, important for Jitter reduction).

Cryogenically treated, solid copper, gold plated power inlet (Sound is smooth and dynamic as a result.)

Most precise resistors available (we only ever use the very best ones with the very best specs available).

Dual power supplies, dual Soekris boards, reprogrammed by LessLoss for dual mono configuration (this provides amazing stereo separation and a whole lot of nuance in terms of spacial presentation. Everything becomes more 3D and liquid. It is really nice when compared to a single board in normal stereo mode.)

XLR output derived from four mono channels of resistor ladders (output buffering schematics completely bypassed. This is possible because one board's Right channel converts the signal in phase and the Left channel converts the same digital signal out-of-phase. The phase reversal is done still in the digital realm, so the balanced signal is digitally perfect, without noise from an output buffer. This provides amazing clarity, transparency; a holographic sound and a super low noise floor.)

LessLoss special custom S/PDIF - I2S conversion schematic (developed and manufactured by LessLoss, it is much better than Soekris onboard solution).

LessLoss controlled automatic digital input selection (Soekris boards receive only I2S from LessLoss board)

LessLoss unique 3.3V generation for internal I2S (The USB 5V supply is discarded; and the 3.3V is made with our own power stabilizer and Firewall 64X technology. It is super smooth and stable. Makes you forget you are listening to a computer USB source!)

All floating bolts point-to-point star grounded (you can see this in the picture as silver looking wires coming from bolt to bolt throughout). This lowers the internal noise reflections and makes it dead silent inside.

New integrated Firewall 64X technology (6 units implemented here. This is brand new technology, the best we ever made.)

C-MARC™ internal hook-up wire (All power and analogue signal leads are C-MARC™. This takes a lot of labor to prepare but we feel the results are so organic and natural with great speed but never getting tiring to the ear. Well worth the extra effort.

DSD (2x) ready over USB.

Plays up to 192 kHz sampling rate PCM data.

Hand polished 100% natural beeswax impregnated (Looks very beautiful in real life, even smells really good, too, though never overpowering.)

Will have a precision engraved brass placard on the front of the unit, with model name engraved by laser on top.

Ships in a LessLoss branded water-tight flight case

Looks like they pay the ad copy guy a good salary.  I don't think he missed any of the buzzwords that sound nice and say little.  Other than its great just ask us.   My two favorites are the Firewall 64x tech, and the phase reversal done digitally.  We probably do get the latter in some Alie Express DACs.  

 

As you just copied their marketing spiel verbatim I have a question.  

 

When did you hire on with them Chris?

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7 minutes ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said:

 

This statement confuses me, what are they trying to say?  I don't get why you need an acoustically dead material here.  Speakers makes sense but not a DAC.  Thick metal would shield better.

You are overthinking this.  If its good for speakers we need it in DACs.  Acoustically dead.  So airborne sound waves don't resonate the bits.  But shielding of electrical fields that might really move the bits....that idea doesn't sell like some glitzy odd looking super plywood.  They could have of course maybe used some silver foil inside for some shielding, but that is more buzz words and next thing you know the price hits $25k.  They aren't using child labor you know. 

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6 minutes ago, Axial said:

 

It's not made in China? 

Neither is the Soekris it is based upon.  Neither are Schiit.  There are plenty of such.  Nothing special in that. 

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5 minutes ago, Axial said:

 

The DAC reviewed here is made in Europe. 

Soekris is Danish. 

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1 hour ago, Danny Kaey said:

 

Certainly something you can ask for; that said, I’m not an audiophile and I’m certainly not an aware audiophile. The last few feet of HiFi (from the cone of your speaker to your ears) is all subjective anyway so even if a set of measurements where provided, who’s to say that you or I won’t hear otherwise. Psychologically speaking, the power of suggestion is immensely powerful a force. 

$20,000 is enough to be powerfully suggestive.