Article: LessLoss Echo’s End Reference DAC Full Review

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Value and cost are mutually exclusive concepts to me.  Something may cost a fortune to build, market, and sell but that does not equate to value towards consumers. 

 

On another front, are we about to start the "tone wood" debate, Panzerholz vs Rosewood vs Ebony vs......?

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

39 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Solid Panzerholz enclosure (it does the same thing for sensitive gear that it does for natural sound used for speakers). 

 

This statement confuses me, what are they trying to say?  I don't get why you need an acoustically dead material here.  Speakers makes sense but not a DAC.  Thick metal would shield better.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Interesting that the first link that comes up when you google panzerholz is the LessLoss website.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

So the enclosure is acting as a dielectric and not a shield.  It won't reflect/absorb RF energy, but dissipate/slow it down.  

 

I prefer to keep cotton away from wires in my builds.  Cotton absorbs airborne moisture, adding to the possibility of corroding of conductors.  Unless either the case or cable assembly is hermetically sealed.  Also it gets compressed during the harness assembly, thereby losing all of it's real benefit as a mostly air dielectric.

 

Interesting design, good luck with it.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Possible, sure.  Metal shielding is a bit of an art form, small changes can make big differences, but you are always reflecting or dissipating energy.  Dielectrics (insulators like wood/teflon/PVC) will always absorb/slow down airborne wave forms, but not reflect much energy if at all.  Whether these effects are audible to most people is open to debate. 

 

In an ideal world,  an all dielectric solution MAY work better, but there are things to consider there.  Dielectrics work best when there are air gaps between signal/power wires, and the dielectric material itself contains a fair % of air in it's composition.  Kind of like foam.  When you foam an insulator like that, it gains volume/thickness quickly.  So you may gain performance but at the cost of added bulk, not to mention this route is more expensive to design. 

 

I would imagine that a MDF entertainment center should do an OK job of keeping interference between components minimized, as it is quite thick and contains a good % of air.  The enclosure for this DAC is probably most of the cost, just due to material selection.  And like I stated earlier, subject to debate as to how much of an effect there actually is.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Oh i've heard of it before, like you said it's been around forever and I know it as tank wood.  Considering it is so widely used especially in speaker cabinets, it is strange to me that the first web link returned on google search is LessLoss a pretty small company.  

 

They aren't using it in the typical manner.  I would expect the first returned link to be something like a wiki page or distributor, not a company pushing cabling/dacs.  Odd.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

On 4/26/2019 at 3:04 PM, Nsummy said:

Not a chance.  And if it did influence it, it would be in a negative way.  Think about all of the high precision laboratory equipment, medical devices, quantum computers, space shuttle electronics, etc. that are not encapsulated in a wooden box.   Its fine if someone wants to make a product like this and jack up the price;  I get it, there is a level of craftsmanship here.  But to say the wooden box is there because of performance reasons is absurd.

 

 

The design requirements here, for a consumer in home audio device, are way different than the scenarios you are describing.  All the high precision applications you quoted main concern above all is durability.  Another problem is regulatory issues often requiring metal or nothing.  Of course metal wins out there.    Panzerholz cost more as well, why spend more when it will just fall apart in a humid/harsh environment, gets wet in a hospital, etc.  It is extremely dense so it should dissipate RF energy well as long as it doesn't get wet or beat on.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

That's an ancient F1 photo, did not recognize it at first.  Martin Brundle, 1996.  Was under the impression that modern F1 is 100% carbon chassis now?

 

Here's a different shot, unfortunately the panzerholz did not hold up so well.  First shot shows the panel beginning to crack in half.

 

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Actually, here is a pretty recent pic, Alonso's 2016 crash in Melbourne w/ Gutierrez:

 

 

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Most F1 fans started complaining about the audible/visual experience when attending races, after rule changes a few years back.  Engines went hybrid, and wasn't as exciting as they went past spectators in a pack.  That's 75% of the fun of attending a race, IMO.  Sparks make a pretty compromise.  It's just a skid plate, all cars have them.  You can see from the photos the panel is just bolted onto the bottom of the chassis.  Cheaper to replace a bolt on panel than re-mold a carbon chassis pan.

 

Wood is actually a pretty good dielectric, it won't compress during assembly and contains a good % of air.  It's a pretty fast dielectric like cotton, so the key is thickness for efficacy.  A log cabin home would probably work great keeping out RF compared to gypsum/frame construction.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

You seem to be confusing dielectric properties with electromagnetic shielding.  They are completely different things! 

 

I'm just way out of it today, ignore me.  Almost lost fingertip an hour after posting that, just got back from ER.  Lost a  ton of blood but thankfully nothing permanent.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

 Right into fingertip and through fingernail with garden shears.  Not one of my proudest moments.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

You seem to be misinterpreting me.  I studied mechanical engineering and fully understand material properties, including tank wood.   I posted a photo of it used as an F1 skid plate as an alternative to titanium.   Things get wet in hospitals.  There are flammability requirements for materials used in medical or other commercial devices.  Tank wood can't be used in those applications for those reasons, regardless of any other beneficial properties.  Flammability isn't a concern in F1...remember the magnesium car that went up in a blaze of glory, so hot they couldn't get near it, killing the driver?

 

I'm making a big deal?  I asked one question and have answered a few, that's all.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Oh I'm well aware of that.  I was just defending that i knew what tank wood is.  Nothing to do with DAC boxes.

 

The purpose of material choice in this case still escapes me though?   All we heard from the builder is that the reasoning is similar to use of this material in speaker cabs.  Which still doesn't make sense to me.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

If vibrations are the concern, go extreme and immerse it in oil.  Now that would be worth paying a lot for because it is just so damn cool.  Take it in for service every now and then which includes an oil change