EarSpace!!!!

[STC]

26 minutes ago, esldude said:

Yes I just used it in Reaper where I had two duplicate stereo tracks.  Muted the un-needed track and used separate correction for each channel. In foobar I did what you described.  Dumped them in audacity and created a new stereo version with one impulse from each channel.  Saved the result as Foobar lets you use a stereo impulse for the convolver.  

 

BTW, only listened to yours briefly and did think it was a bit too long a reverb time.  Intend to listen some more this evening before making any other comments. 

 

Try using the mono and reduce the level as I mentioned earlier.  These IRs were recorded at high level so you must reduce the level. You can also do another IR measurements with my IR so that your overall RT is 600ms. a lot depends on the convolution engine. The plugin itself costs more than thrice of Reaper. 

[STC]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

did think it was a bit too long a reverb time

 

Compared to Paul', his  about 125ms and mine is 570ms (I rounded up to 600ms to include room's own RT from different angles ). That's the reason I emphasized that level must be adjusted.

[STC]

Try this...hopefully the level is matched. 

 

LeftMono

RightMono

[esldude]

3 hours ago, STC said:

Try this...hopefully the level is matched. 

 

LeftMono

RightMono

Having listened some more these seem to have too long a reverberation time.  Sound too much like sound coming from a tunnel or something like that.  

 

So not sure where to go next.  The aim (at least in my mind) was to see if using convolved IR allowed one to hear someone else's room.  So far it isn't successful.  Which doesn't mean give it up, but I'll have to think about it.  Seems something is being missed listening to the results.  

[esldude]

Here is a mono impulse response to try.  Let me know what you guys hear. 

 

CK1 impulse from rew.wav

[STC]

10 minutes ago, esldude said:

Having listened some more these seem to have too long a reverberation time.  Sound too much like sound coming from a tunnel or something like that.  

 

So not sure where to go next.  The aim (at least in my mind) was to see if using convolved IR allowed one to hear someone else's room.  So far it isn't successful.  Which doesn't mean give it up, but I'll have to think about it.  Seems something is being missed listening to the results.  

 

I have already told earlier it will never work. Prior knowledge of familiar sound is one of the reasons why it is hard to objectively judge sound. Furthermore, if you look at the latest mono IRs, they were meant to be produced from the direction of 120 degrees. A good IR must also have reflection of the opposite wall. I.e they should be in pure stereo. Making it 4 channels. 

 

I am am not sure how Reaper works but if you have dry and wet signal and listening over the headphone should add a little ambiance. I am guessing here as I don’t think this Methodist correct way to use the impulse response. If you can use your reaper to send these signals ( wet only) to a duplicate front stereo channels to speakers placed at 120 degrees then you would have a better ambiance retrieval. 

[STC]

5 minutes ago, esldude said:

Here is a mono impulse response to try.  Let me know what you guys hear. 

 

CK1 impulse from rew.wav

 

There is no way I could try with mono. Maybe if I have two stereo, I could try to recreate your room. Ideally, one for every 15 degrees that will be pretty accurate. Looking at PKane’s IRs spectrogram, the decay dies of pretty quickly. 

[STC]

@esldude did you introduce predelay to my IRs?  Try 30 to 50 ms. Otherwise, you tunnel like sound is correct because the direct sound is colour Ed with the Irs.  Looking at PKane IR of one second delay, you are bound to hear echoes. 

[esldude]

17 minutes ago, STC said:

 

I have already told earlier it will never work. Prior knowledge of familiar sound is one of the reasons why it is hard to objectively judge sound. Furthermore, if you look at the latest mono IRs, they were meant to be produced from the direction of 120 degrees. A good IR must also have reflection of the opposite wall. I.e they should be in pure stereo. Making it 4 channels. 

 

I am am not sure how Reaper works but if you have dry and wet signal and listening over the headphone should add a little ambiance. I am guessing here as I don’t think this Methodist correct way to use the impulse response. If you can use your reaper to send these signals ( wet only) to a duplicate front stereo channels to speakers placed at 120 degrees then you would have a better ambiance retrieval. 

Yes, actually I can do what you describe.  I'll see about that, but it doesn't bode well for using headphones to listen to another room. 

 

I can see where it might help to listen to stereo system IR's over a surround system.  That would be a different way to approach this.  

[esldude]

1 minute ago, STC said:

@esldude did you introduce predelay to my IRs?  Try 30 to 50 ms. Otherwise, you tunnel like sound is correct because the direct sound is colour Ed with the Irs.  Looking at PKane IR of one second delay, you are bound to hear echoes. 

I did mess with the delay a little bit, and could get it to sound different/better, but wasn't sure if that made sense. 

[esldude]

17 minutes ago, STC said:

 

There is no way I could try with mono. Maybe if I have two stereo, I could try to recreate your room. Ideally, one for every 15 degrees that will be pretty accurate. Looking at PKane’s IRs spectrogram, the decay dies of pretty quickly. 

Well that was recorded at the listening position.  It was just mono.  It also was an omni mike.  But having done stereo, my room setup is surprisingly symmetrical.  Not perfect, but I think if you use that mono IR in both channels of a stereo playback it won't be terribly off.  I tried it and it seemed in the ballpark.  

[STC]

2 hours ago, esldude said:

Here is a mono impulse response to try.  Let me know what you guys hear. 

 

CK1 impulse from rew.wav

 

What was the impulse response level when you recorded it? Practically, all the decay after 5ms is drowned with noise floor. Will record the sound of guys room with binaural and see if you could distinguish which is yours.

[pkane2001]

4 hours ago, esldude said:

Having listened some more these seem to have too long a reverberation time.  Sound too much like sound coming from a tunnel or something like that.  

 

So not sure where to go next.  The aim (at least in my mind) was to see if using convolved IR allowed one to hear someone else's room.  So far it isn't successful.  Which doesn't mean give it up, but I'll have to think about it.  Seems something is being missed listening to the results.  

 

Interesting. I guess there are a few possible reasons. I'll try to make some time today to listen to the IR files both of you posted, but from your feedback, it sounds like the reverb is significantly more pronounced than you'd expect.

 

I wonder if when we listen in the room, there is some additional mechanism that helps our brain to cancel out reflections that does not occur when listening over the headphones?  That doesn't explain why when we listen to our own IR over headphones, we also don't hear the extra reverb.

 

Or, perhaps @STC is right and there's some memory/expectation of what the room sounds like that makes it easy to cancel out delayed echoes?

 

Or, it could be that you, Dennis, are too sensitive to reverb over the headphones  Or it could be that the method we are using to capture IR isn't quite right.

 

Let's see if I hear the same as you. This seems like a curious result, something I didn't expect.

[STC]

6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Or, perhaps @STC is right and there's some memory/expectation of what the room sounds like that makes it easy to cancel out delayed echoes?

 

Just listened to yours and there were two images separated. If the music is long it gets superimposed. Having said I think your room acoustics is good. I have recorded yours and @esldude room acoustics. Guess which is whose?

 

 

WNofthree2.wav

[pkane2001]

9 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Just listened to yours and there were two images separated. If the music is long it gets superimposed. Having said I think your room acoustics is good. I have recorded yours and @esldude room acoustics. Guess which is whose?

 

 

WNofthree2.wav

 

Will get to try it later today. So you hear two two separate sounds, left and right, separated by a delay? That doesn't seem right.

 

[STC]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Will get to try it later today. So you hear two two separate sounds, left and right, separated by a delay? That doesn't seem right.

 

 

Just edit the IR and remove the firt one second then it should be fine. The white noise is a good indication to hear the difference between the three rooms. The delay will not be heard in the white noise. 

[STC]

13 hours ago, STC said:

 

Just listened to yours and there were two images separated. If the music is long it gets superimposed. Having said I think your room acoustics is good. I have recorded yours and @esldude room acoustics. Guess which is whose?

 

 

WNofthree2.wav 

 

No one else tried?  This is a binaural recording of the room acoustics only with the main sound which is not possible in nature. You are hearing a simulated sound of how the sound bouncing of the walls reaching your ears.

[pkane2001]

25 minutes ago, STC said:

 

No one else tried?  This is a binaural recording of the room acoustics only with the main sound which is not possible in nature. You are hearing a simulated sound of how the sound bouncing of the walls reaching your ears.

 

I'm trying right now, for the first time. I'll spend more time with it, but first impression is that your IR files are doing something interesting.

 

It seems that any recording that already has a significant amount of reverb in it becomes extremely reverberant with your IR applied, almost echoey. To the point where it sounds like I'm in a long and narrow hallway with music playing at the far end. On the other hand, I can barely tell there's additional reverb added when playing a very simple acoustic/binaural recording without much sense of space in it. 

 

My suspicion is that combining some reflections already in the recording with the additional IR-recorded reflections pushes the reflected sound delays beyond the point where our brain can merge them properly, at or above 10ms or so. As long as IR delays and reverb in the recording combine to some smaller delay, it sounds much more realistic.

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I'm trying right now, for the first time. I'll spend more time with it, but first impression is that your IR files are doing something interesting.

 

It seems that any recording that already has a significant amount of reverb in it becomes extremely reverberant with your IR applied, almost echoey. To the point where it sounds like I'm in a long and narrow hallway with music playing at the far end. On the other hand, I can barely tell there's additional reverb added when playing a very simple acoustic/binaural recording without much sense of space in it. 

 

My suspicion is that combining some reflections already in the recording with the additional IR-recorded reflections pushes the reflected sound delays beyond the point where our brain can merge them properly, at or above 10ms or so. As long as IR delays and reverb in the recording combine to some smaller delay, it sounds much more realistic.

 

Same effect confirmed with IR file from @esldude. Moral of the story is the content needs to be fairly clean from recorded (or processed) reflections to sound reasonable with the additional IR applied.

[STC]

22 hours ago, STC said:

Try this...hopefully the level is matched. 

 

LeftMono

RightMono

 

I hope you are using this. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I'm trying right now, for the first time. I'll spend more time with it, but first impression is that your IR files are doing something interesting.

 

It seems that any recording that already has a significant amount of reverb in it becomes extremely reverberant with your IR applied, almost echoey. To the point where it sounds like I'm in a long and narrow hallway with music playing at the far end. On the other hand, I can barely tell there's additional reverb added when playing a very simple acoustic/binaural recording without much sense of space in it. 

 

My suspicion is that combining some reflections already in the recording with the additional IR-recorded reflections pushes the reflected sound delays beyond the point where our brain can merge them properly, at or above 10ms or so. As long as IR delays and reverb in the recording combine to some smaller delay, it sounds much more realistic.

 

WNofthree2 is just the reverbs from the walls. All three of us. See top quote. 

 

As I mentioned before, I don’t mix reverbs to the orginal sound. This are reverbs coming from 45 degrees onwards not captured in the orginal sound. They are directionless. Since they will arrive later than them original sound direct sound it only will add spaciousness. See precedence effect discussion.  

 

 

[STC]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Same effect confirmed with IR file from @esldude. Moral of the story is the content needs to be fairly clean from recorded (or processed) reflections to sound reasonable with the additional IR applied.

 

Thats wrong. The reason why they make so much effort to record in natural good acoustics environment is to capture the frontal reverbs. It should be encoded in the recording. Our aim is to get the rear reverbs correct. 

 

So so what did you get from the white noise?  This is just the sound of white noise bouncing of the walls without any direct sound from the front speakers. Front speakers was turned off. 

[pkane2001]

12 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Thats wrong. The reason why they make so much effort to record in natural good acoustics environment is to capture the frontal reverbs. It should be encoded in the recording. Our aim is to get the rear reverbs correct. 

 

I don't think we have the same aim here. Like Dennis, I'm trying to see if it's possible to reproduce the effect of someone else's room/system through my own system by applying recorded IR. My aim has nothing to do with making a recording sound more natural or more spacious.

 

It seems that to achieve my goal, I would have to first deconvolve the original recording with the IR of the original recording venue, and then re-convolve it with the IR of the space/system I'd like to listen to. This makes it a lot harder, but maybe not impossible.

[pkane2001]

18 hours ago, esldude said:

Well that was recorded at the listening position.  It was just mono.  It also was an omni mike.  But having done stereo, my room setup is surprisingly symmetrical.  Not perfect, but I think if you use that mono IR in both channels of a stereo playback it won't be terribly off.  I tried it and it seemed in the ballpark.  

 

Interesting! I also hear more than expected reverb with your IR file. As I said, I suspect that the amount depends on the original amount of reverb in the recording. This makes sense if the combined delays exceed the ability of the ear/brain to merge these sounds properly.

 

Does your IR sound good/realistic to you when applied to headphone listening? 

[STC]

14 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I don't think we have the same aim here. Like Dennis, I'm trying to see if it's possible to reproduce the effect of someone else's room/system through my own system by applying recorded IR. My aim has nothing to do with making a recording sound more natural or more spacious.

 

It seems that to achieve my goal, I would have to first deconvolve the original recording with the IR of the original recording venue, and then re-convolve it with the IR of the space/system I'd like to listen to. This makes it a lot harder, but maybe not impossible.

 

I understand what you are trying to create. That’s what I do. Recreate any acoustics of the venue. I have recreated yours and Dennis with the white noise. Is it accurate?  No. Because your IR is only one mono signal. It sums all the 360 degrees reflections as one signal. This approach is useful for room correction but can never be used to recreate another room. It will be monotonous unlike the real hall where the bounced sound will be

like hearing out of phase. It can give a general sense of frequency response of a room so some information can be derived from there. 

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, STC said:

 

I understand what you are trying to create. That’s what I do. Recreate any acoustics of the venue. I have recreated yours and Dennis with the white noise. Is it accurate?  No. Because your IR is only one mono signal. It sums all the 360 degrees reflections as one signal. This approach is useful for room correction but can never be used to recreate another room. It will be monotonous unlike the real hall where the bounced sound will be

like hearing out of phase. It can give a general sense of frequency response of a room so some information can be derived from there. 

 

Wait. My IR consists of two files created from left and right channels, each recorded with a different speaker playing, with all the relevant reflections from each side of the room. How's that mono?