The Best for the Least

[bigbob]

10 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Can speakers made without modern driver materials and without computer modeling and manufacturing tools really compete with today’s speakers?

 

I will give that one to you.

 

Yes, with computer modeling and rare earth elements, space-age composites like carbon fiber, well, for that matter expensive speaker wires--none of which were available to Henry Kloss in 1970-- I am sure newer designs may perform better on the test bench, or in a head-to-head DBT.

 

Without being confrontational, the OP -- "I would love to hear what others think are the best speakers less than $3K (new or used). "

 

And since my Advents are still sounding sweet, some 43 years after their purchase--I submit that they are well under $3k and a viable option for an Audiophile. (And a position buttressed by both J.Gordon Holt and Harry Pearson's reviews)

 

A cursory glance at the eBay listings for Vintage speakers reveals that they command twice their original selling price--AS 40-year old Designs.

 

  @GUTB you have what we termed 'a chilling effect' in journalism.

 

I would have mentioned my 6 1/2 inch DaytonAudio AIR  speakers which retail for $49, but that would have surely caused your Audiophilia Literati head to explode, and I am sure the other posters would not appreciate having the mop up that mess. That being said, for the boys in Ohio to license the ESS Heil Air Motion Transformer, and manufacture it into a pair of a quite listenable speaker using Chinese labor is rather remarkable.

[bigbob]

24 minutes ago, mansr said:

British Rail once got issued a patent for a fusion powered flying saucer. That's how much patents mean.

 

I am sure the boys in MI5 appreciated the stealth capabilities in the war on Terror.

And, although not germane to this forum--Google "Secret Space Program" and discover the use of German developed anti-gravity technology in the current top-secret 'flying saucers' we randomly see when their cloaking field is not operational...

[bigbob]

10 hours ago, BobSherman said:

Bang for the buck front end and DAC: Raspberry Pi - Allo DigiOne driving

a Modi-Multibit.

 

You have hit the biggest nail right on the head, with such force as to seat its head on the surface of the board.

 

I could not agree with you more and were are in the process of testing that very set-up (albeit with a RasPi outputting to the Multibit via USB-- although I am considering the SPDIF digital connection in our second round of testing)

 

@BobSherman, I would appreciate your further input with regards to digital coaxial vs. USB, as I am not that familiar with the differences--and what impact that would have.

 

It is my opinion that USB connections are more accessible to more devices in the entry-level. But, for the Audiophile listener, it may well be a better arrangement.

[bigbob]

18 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Fake news.

 

That seems to be the best response to anything, which is proven to be a fact.

At least in the political world...but we know Audiophilia knows no party label.

[bigbob]

7 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Another alternative fact are plastic driver lightweight speakers costing $50 sounding good.

 

"Yessir, but since you live in an alternative World, it is OK..."- Kellyanne Conway

[bigbob]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

imho optical is better than usb, but optical doesn't support highres dsd files...so that should be your decision...if you don't care abut dsd (and seeing you like schiit) i would suggest optical....but if you want the best, go to highres native dsd....

 

I do favor Schiit, and you are correct-- the Computer Audiophile on the Cheap-- is priced out of the DSD-streaming subscription market.

 

Almost my entire library is 24/192, 24/96 FLAC and MP3@320 files. My target demographic would look at me with a blank stare if I started talking about DSD256.

 

Which is to say, as a practical concern, my class of listeners found Hi-Res Audio, stored on a 1Tb external drive--a Great Leap Forward, compared to their 16/44 Redbook CD collection.

 

I am not going to say that in the years to come,  DSD streaming is not the next big thing, or am I going to jump into the MQA realm just now.

 

If that is where we are headed, then we will jump onboard that Train when the offerings include familiar recordings, not some obscure vocalist that has never been close to a Billboard Top-100 chart.

 

What I have found available in DSD is nothing I am interested in listening to, nor willing to invest in hardware to decode. (And if I am wrong, please tell me where Simon and Garfunkel, or Thomas Dolby is offered in DSD.)

 

I am a very Grateful Dead-head. The vast library of 24-bit soundboard recordings will probably never be part of a DSD streaming service. To each their own.

 

One article I read about Schiit said they were targeting folks who wanted to make the Stereo they had, sound its best.

 

Computer Audiophile on the Cheap makes decisions based on "Perceived quality vs. Investment" in all choices.

[bigbob]

3 minutes ago, botrytis said:

I have an iFi and had an SMSL-M8 DAC (the PS went and destroyed the DAC). Both sound nice for the price but wanted to see what a little more would get me. I finally went and bought a NOS TEAC UD-501 for 1/2 price of what they were new. This DAC does everything I want and more and sounds stellar to boot. 

---clip

 

People do not have to spend tons of money to get great sound.

 

 

A quick Google found this:  "TEAC's new UD-501 is the star of the 501 series. The UD-501 supports Direct Stream Digital (DSD) playback at either  2.8 MHz or 5.6MHz (DXD) rates. PCM audio is supported up to 384kHz/32-bit resolution. It connects to your computer over USB using ASIO 2.1 or DoP." --for under $500 as a refurbished unit.

 

I agree we don't have to break the bank to hear good music.

[bigbob]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

most of the "good dead stuff" is bootlegs not audiophile worthy (wink), at least according to my brother.....  My brother had a collection of several hundred tapes that he spent years collecting and trading for.  I donated them to a neighbor of his at his passing. 

Anyway, for your liking, i would recommend the optical solution over usb...jmo

 

 

Yes, you are correct--almost all of the Traders would have cassettes that had many generations on them.

 

Gawd, they were awful quality, but as valuable as Samizdat in the Deadhead community.

 

With bit-torrent and etree.org, some soundboard recordings were sampled at 24/96 and FREEly distributed. They are "Audiophile" quality, compared to a 12th generation copy of an audience cassette recording.

 

Of particular interest are what we call the "Debbie Stash".

 

When Jerry Garcia left his mortal coil in 1995, his current wife had a ton of reel-tapes which were "Jerry's copies" of Stereo mix-downs from the 16-track soundboard recording. Charlie Miller and other archivists have been releasing these over the etree.org repository--for Free.

 

We sort of chuckle when the Grateful Dead announces the "never-before-released" copies of shows in a limited edition set.

 

Many of us have all they offer, already in soundboard recordings, in our library-- to which we say, "Thanks, Debbie"

[bigbob]

15 hours ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Pre-dates both they were stacked almost immediately after their introduction. I first heard them in 1970.

 

Cool, were you impressed when the first versions were released? 

 

I understand the initial offering had problems with the tweeters, which Advent corrected by replacing with orange "fried-egg" tweeters.

[bigbob]

23 minutes ago, BobSherman said:

The pi shares the bus between USB and Ethernet, far from an ideal situation. The Hats connect via I2s from the Pi so you solve the shared bus problem. The DigiOne  also re clocks and send a very clean super low jitter SPDIF signal to the DAC.  Further improvement can be had by using a linear power supply.

 

 

Thanks, that clears up some of my questions. I am excited about using a RasPi as a music server, and both the iFi iOne (which I am currently reviewing) and Modi Multibit (which should be here for review next week). It appears that DigiOne with S/PDIF would be the way to go.  At $249, the ladder DAC of the Multi might just be the decisive factor in building a "plug and play" computer-based Audiophile system when coupled to the RasPi. It would be foolhardy for me to say that USB noise is not a factor, as I have found that noise is something you don't realize is degrading the SQ until it is gone. The iFi Active Noise Cancellation in the iPurifier2 and built into the iOne was noticeable, so the iFi iPurifier 2 is a necessary addition to the $99 Modi 2 in my system. (And using it with iFi iOne was 'overkill'--which we discovered when it was pulled out of the signal path, and everything opened up.)

'Double' ANC actually adversely affected the sound.

[bigbob]

31 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

everything is subjective anymore....we only got our ears to judge if we like better...most people realize that in most cases the measurements don't tell the story anymore....surely you have been on this site long enough to know that by now. 

 

 

 

 

Oh, My Gawd, you mean listening to music is a reliable test of audio equipment?

Who knew?

[bigbob]

8 hours ago, Spacehound said:

So why the 'arguments'?

Simply because of the lunatic prices of much hifi stuff when the price of all other electronics constantly decreases. These guys need to be shown up for the con men most of them are. We're doing it with MQA, why not them too?

 

 

The more I read your posts, @Spacehound the better I understand your logic and reasoning.

I guess I am fortunate to not have unlimited budgets, and I rely on technology that is at least 10 years old (and in the case of the Advents, almost 50 years old) not by choice but as a necessity.

For example, in building the "on the cheap" system, I have been testing external DACs, using USB, and a 'stock' old Dell Vostro that I built from spare parts at Goodwill.

I had heard of RasPi and even read about using it as Music Server--which opened up the question of S/PDIF vs. USB. The more I read, the more convinced that I should explore the Allo Boss DAC which is a HAT for the RasPi.

It comes in at $65--even less than the Schiit Modi 2 which exceeded my expectations when I upgraded from an AQ Dragonfly. I would think the 40-pin PIO would eliminate the "antenna" effect of the USB interconnect, and I have seen many favorable reviews.

 

Will it rival a Chord or a dCS, I seriously doubt it--that would be like comparing a Chevy Camero to a 1964 Ferrari. Both will squeak their tires with a price differential of $1 million. For me, it will need to only 'best' the Modi 2, and save me $34.

 

Now, as a reference to 'Lunatic' prices...my answer is to find the best value for the buck, hence 'on the cheap'

[bigbob]

On 2/9/2018 at 9:48 PM, beerandmusic said:

tell me more about the allo boss...how is it implemented?

I see it has an ethernet port and analog out...

what is software implementation method with it?

It is a HAT that couples directly on the 40-pin PIO. Software will be Volumio, with the control in my Smartphone. It cost 99 cents for the app. The Raspberry has Ethernet, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth.

 

 

[bigbob]

Volumio is just a distro of Linux, as I understand it. It replaced the "Audiophile Linux". RaspPi uses a Linux distro called Rasperian which is a lightweight OS in the Debian tradition, and although I am not familiar with everything yet, I am going to say that if it will run on a Linux OS then it should run on a RasPi. Volumio is a 'headless' DMP, meaning you don't need a keyboard, mouse, and monitor to operate it, only a smartphone or tablet. Since I also want to watch movies on my 32-inch flat screen, I am investigating VLC media player also...but, in all honesty, I am very new to the RasPi world, so I am not your best resource.

 

[bigbob]

32 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

a quick research shows that the allo boss can be used as dlna client, but it's dsd support is limited....probably still great bang for buck though!

 

 

I have quit worrying about DSD.

I am content with PCM 24/192.

 

I am testing the Schiit Modi Multibit that Jason sent me...and although I have never heard a DSD, I have heard SACD, and I really would have a hard time spending $25/album to upgrade.

 

Subscription downloads are not an economical option either.

 

So, unless DSD really takes over recorded music, I am pleased with Schiit based on what I am hearing. This "Mimby" now has me thinking about getting the S/PDIF card for the RasPi and using the Multibit external DAC...a better use for $249 than 10 DSD albums, in my opinion.

 

It is getting harder to be 'on the Cheap.'

When you combine a Mimby with RasPi and Digi output card, you are starting to get close to the lower end of the Music Servers, cost wise.

[bigbob]

19 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I understand your thinking...i just always have a hard time associating "best of anything" to "pcm only", unless the title was "best pcm only solution"....

 

I am sure since "jason provided you a dac", that there will always be some bias there (wink).

 

My experience will always be different, as in my book, native dsd will always be a part of my solution.

 

 

Not a bias, I have a contact at iFi also and tested two of their entry level nano units. If I could get a loaner from other manufacturers, I would test them and return after. Full disclosure, I own Schiit Modi 2 and a AQ Dragonfly v1.2. I lean toward Schiit because I have found the music to be less 'technical' and more 'musical' which is say that it just sounds better. The DSD and Bluetooth of the iFi unit is not a deal maker for me.

In my CAOTC, I want to make recommendation based on best for the least. 

I really don't care if someone wants and can afford a DSD solution, and they want a portable headphone amp, then iFi is the way to go. I just don't think MQA or DSD is in my future because of my tight budget.

[bigbob]

15 minutes ago, patagent said:

Have you tried any room correction software (e.g., Dirac) on your system?  One of the reasons people stay away from DSD is because it's not straightforward to apply room correction DSP.  Room correction DSP can have a huge impact in the quality of sound.   Don't be surprised if DSP'd PCM surpasses native DSD in your system.  

 

I would have said that room treatments in my listening room in my tiny apartment would probably not work-- until my friend brought over a Synergistic Research device that I could hear a noticable "opening up" of soundstage. And I missed it after he unplugged it and went home.

[bigbob]

2 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Let me know how the allo products fare....i have heard good things.

Thanks. I have a feeling that the Boss DAC will at least be as good as the Modi 2, for $34 less...and I try to be objective. Having a friend who's system is over $300k is also a good second opinion. I can be objective when I can hear a difference. Had been able to play DSD, and heard a different sound, I might be able to share your enthusiasm. Before the Dragonfly, I thought 16/44 must be the best available (or why would SBE made that the Redbook standard?) We live and learn, we desire and aquire-- isn't it part of the hobby?

[bigbob]

8 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

so you know, you can do dsd via dlna via a used $50 sony bluray player, so you can do dsd cheap, but i understand if you don't have a large DSD library, where dsd doesn't matter...but you can do dsd as cheap or cheaper than pcm with excellent results.

 

I down loaded a sample DSD file for the iFi test, and never heard it, because the software to play it required 64 bit computer...so I gave up. I am open to it and if the I get DSD to work for me with the RasPi then we will revise my thinking. Just right now DSD isn't on my plate.

[bigbob]

The. Auralic Aries Mini @ $499 looks good at entry level price. Any experience with that as a streamer with DSD?

[bigbob]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I know it has a popular following but have no experience with it.   For it's price range, but for about the same price, i would opt for a used NT503.

 

 

 

 

 

3

To be honest, I was looking through a catalog and I recognized the name I have seen posts about.

That would seem to be the entry-level if I can't get the RasPi server working. (Which was a bad board, replacement on the way)

But I have heard much more about the Teac, and a used one would be a good choice, thanks.

[bigbob]

2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

So you’ve never heard high rate native DSD recordings through a real native -DSD DAC. To be honest, enjoying that grade of sound is pretty expensive so it’s probably a luxury that’s out of reach of audiophiles with very limited means.

 

 

 

That is exactly the case. Why I chose the "on the Cheap" end of the industry is out of necessity and my feeling that today most people are happy with the earbuds that hook into their phone...that is to say the bar is set pretty low.

 

I certainly don't begrudge anyone who can afford the more expensive equipment and DSDs at $25 each.

 

And although I can appreciate high-end systems when given the opportunity to listen to them, I am continuing to be amazed at the advances that have been made in improving entry-level components.

 

Right now, I am listening to the Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, and it sounds better than the iFi iOne, for what amounts to $50 more. But, if you have an iFi and you are happy with that sound (which I describe as sounding more 'technical' or colder) then I can be happy for you.  To my hearing, the Multibit sounds more analog, and warmer. But it is all subjective, and we listen to what we have.

 

I will not try to compare it to things that I cannot afford because that isn't the point. I would certainly think if I spent thousands more, it should sound like you paid more. No argument there.

 

The best improvement came when I was given a Denon AVR-2805 which has an AL24 processor which makes even low-res MP3s sound good on my system.

 

I fear that some Audiophiles take offense to think that a good sounding stereo can be pulled together from the entry-level equipment.

I recall the absolute amazement when I first heard a 24-bit recording with AQ Dragonfly. I think that is when my Stereo Bug really grabbed ahold of me. The progress up the ladder is in measured steps.

 

Sure, if I won the lottery, I would buy McIntosh, but until then, a used Denon will just  have to do.

[bigbob]

1 hour ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

I know one or two here. One, at least.

 

You know, I have two 'real Audiophiles' one is a successful Medical Professional, who loves vinyl. His system includes a top-of-the-line turntable, a pair of BAT monoblocks and a pair of Von Schweikert floor-standing loudspeakers.

 

I can honestly say that it is the finest sounding analog system I have had the opportunity to hear. His listening room, at the time, was lined from floor to ceiling with his library of well-pressed records, and he was content.

 

My other Audiophile friend has over $300K invested in his system and is based on CDs, SACDs, and Hi-Res Audio files. It too is awesome.

 

I have second hand this and that that I have cobbled together with my limited resources a very good sounding 'entry-level' system, and I am content.

 

My lack of resources, coupled with my desire to have a system which sounds "almost as good" as my friends. And with some ingenuity, I have succeeded in pleasing my ears, and I don't want this to threaten anyone. If I had more money, I would spend more--but alas, that is not a probable outcome.

 

Years ago, while I was living my previous life, I had a high school basketball coach share some sage wisdom that has served me well for the past 40 years.

 

He said, "If you ain't happy, get happy because life is too short to be unhappy." That is the underlying motive for launching "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" as a magazine, and my marketplace. There is no system like mine, and I don't feel compelled to justify, are defend it to anyone. I am not an electrical engineer, computer guru, or disinterested listener. I just like a half-dozen albums and many Grateful Dead concerts, and I am content.

[bigbob]

2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

‘You didn’t put together a system that sounds "almost" as good. Let’s just be real for two seconds.

 

I forgot, when did you come over?

Have we even met?

You have no clue what my system sounds like...so get real for two more seconds and remind me why you think you know what I hear?

[bigbob]

Just now, GUTB said:

 

You’re saying that your old consumer grade receiver based system sounds almost as good as a $300k system and another high end analog setup. Assuming even basic competency in component matching and room configuration, that assertion just can’t be true.

 

Too late in the evening to engage with you, remember it isn't fishing if the fish doesn't take the bait---it is just sitting in a boat looking at a line...