Operating systems and their sound signatures

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, zackthedog said:

 

Glad you got it working, Bill!  Do you by chance have Audirvana on that Mac?  If not, download a trial copy and try it with UpMPD as the output.  No need for extensive setup, just install it, set the preferences to no upsampling, output to UpMPD, drag and drop some files into the player window and give it a shot.  It's going to sound way better than playing the files off the MPD hard drive.

 

If that's an improvement, try Kazoo (free for Mac) with a DLNA server if your storage drive has one built in.  If files are on your Mac, install Minimserver and set it to watch your music folder.  You might be surprised at how much better a direct DLNA/UPnP playback to MPD sounds.  BubbleUp on an Android tablet is the best controller of all, IMO.

 

In the end you may prefer wtf, but there's a lot of convenience to be had with this set up if you get the playback right.

 

hi Zack, this is going in the right direction. Playing from Audirvana on my mac to UpMPD sounds way better, and very similar to wtfplay! Then I thought, why not try the same from JRiver on my mac. I use that only as a database, and after trying I was reminded of the reason why: the sound became dull again.

 

My music files are on a separate nas4free box but mounted on my mac via samba. So far I had little luck with DLNA/UPnP on nas4free, so I will give minimserver a go, which I have used before on a Windows audio PC with UPPlay (then with only minimwatch on my mac). So I guess in this case I should install mimimserver on my mac? Just one important question: will minimserver + mpd be able to play DSD256? (Audirvana and JRiver have no problem with that.)

 

Whatever the final setup, you have made my day! :-)

[zackthedog]

Excellent!  I too use JRiver solely as a database tool, though the sound isnt all that bad to my ears--not as good as Audirvana, though, by any means.

 

Nas4Free is based on FreeDSB rather than Linux, so a Minimserver install is going to be very challenging and perhaps not worth the effort.  I use OpenMediaVault, which is a Debian OS so Minimserver is an easy alternative.  It's not your typical blah-sounding DLNA server!  You could install it on the Mac and have it source your files from the NAS--not ideal, but it would give you an idea of how it sounds.  Or just create a small library of test albums on the Mac, point Minimserver to that library and see what it sounds like.  My local audio buddy was blown away by the combination of Minimserver and UpMPD, but my wife finds it too "intense" so I only use it for guilty-pleasure "home alone" sessions. ;-)  Otherwise she won't drop by the living room for a glass of wine and some Mozart...

 

I don't believe it does native DSD, but you might google and check.  That's a drawback, I imagine.

[nbpf]

8 hours ago, zackthedog said:

...  My local audio buddy was blown away by the combination of Minimserver and UpMPD, but my wife finds it too "intense" so I only use it for guilty-pleasure "home alone" sessions. ;-)  Otherwise she won't drop by the living room for a glass of wine and some Mozart...

...

Could you please post a pointer to UpMPD? Do you mean upmpdcli? I use MinimServer and upmpdcli (typically running on the same machine, a fitPC3 or Raspberry Pis with different extensions) and I am very pleased with this combination. If UpMPD is not upmpdcli, I would be interested in learning about it! Thanks, nbpf   

[nbpf]

On 1/2/2018 at 2:47 AM, zackthedog said:

...

 

The best-sound Linux install I've heard to date is here:

 

https://www.24bit96.com/hifi-music-server/bitperfect-linux-with-mpd.html

 

...

 

I have tried the real time kernel suggested in the above link (specifically, 4.9.0-5-rt-amd64) but it prevents the ethernet interface from becoming available at boot time. This sucks because my server runs headlessly and I access it remotely via ssh. Thus, I'm back to the default kernel. The rest of the installation corresponds more or less to my default setup. Very clear instructions, though. Thanks for the link!  

[bodiebill]

13 hours ago, zackthedog said:

Excellent!  I too use JRiver solely as a database tool, though the sound isnt all that bad to my ears--not as good as Audirvana, though, by any means.

 

Nas4Free is based on FreeDSB rather than Linux, so a Minimserver install is going to be very challenging and perhaps not worth the effort.  I use OpenMediaVault, which is a Debian OS so Minimserver is an easy alternative.  It's not your typical blah-sounding DLNA server!  You could install it on the Mac and have it source your files from the NAS--not ideal, but it would give you an idea of how it sounds.  Or just create a small library of test albums on the Mac, point Minimserver to that library and see what it sounds like.  My local audio buddy was blown away by the combination of Minimserver and UpMPD, but my wife finds it too "intense" so I only use it for guilty-pleasure "home alone" sessions. ;-)  Otherwise she won't drop by the living room for a glass of wine and some Mozart...

 

I don't believe it does native DSD, but you might google and check.  That's a drawback, I imagine.

 

With Ubuntu 17.10/MPD as audio server:

Minimserver + BubbleUPnP on my Samsung phone sounds really good indeed with original DSD files and flac. However, I would prefer to upsample on-the-fly all my music to DSD256, as the DSD circuit of my Lampizator sounds better than the PCM circuit. Using an (offline upsampled) DSD256 file, I compared control points:

• JRiver – SQ subpar, no candidate
• Audirvana Plus – with no upsampling, sounds absolutely wonderful, however DSD256 sometimes stutters; DSD128 plays well
• HQPlayer + NAA image instead of Ubuntu/MPD – using DirectDSM, SQ comes near Audirvana, maybe a tad less involving (or is it the volume?); DSD256 plays well

So the choice is between A++Ubuntu/MPD and HQP+NAA.

[bodiebill]

A question about the MPD installation:

The hw identifier for my DAC regularly changes from hw:1,0 to hw:2,0 and back. Is there a way to make it persist?

[ALRAINBOW]

On 1/5/2018 at 4:12 PM, zackthedog said:

Well, I'd urge you to persist, because this sounds a lot better than Snakeoil, IMO.  When you have another free half-hour, try this:

 

1A) Start with Unbuntu 17 mini net install.  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD.  Name the machine "debianmusic" and user "usbaudio".

 

1B) At software select choose basic system services, Open SSH and Samba. 

 

2) Once installation is done, SSH in and replace the kernel with "apt-get install linux-lowlatency". 

 

3) Install alsa-base, alsa-utils, MPD,  avahi-daemon and lighttpd and configure as directed. 

 

4) Configure Samba as directed.  Skip usb mount and static ip address, you don't need them.  Skip acpi/acpid unless you find you need them later.

 

5) Install upmpdcli as directed on their web page.  Before installing, do "sudo apt-get install software-properties-common".  Then you can install upmpdcli.

 

6) Shut down, attach your DAC, restart and configure MPD.  Restart.  You now have a first-class renderer/MPD player.  You can connect to the server from your main PC and transfer music to the music folder and play direct with any MPD controller, or connect from JRiver or Audirvana as a renderer.  If you want to get fancy you can install Bubbleupnp and play Tidal from BubbleUp or Kazoo. :-)

When you say snake oil what are you referring to ? Windows or player sorry for my ignorance 

[nbpf]

13 minutes ago, ALRAINBOW said:

When you say snake oil what are you referring to ? Windows or player sorry for my ignorance 

 

[ALRAINBOW]

I am willing to test.  Computer savey dumb on Linux.  But I do know some dos I also have a Audio buddy who is a Linux wiz loves it and hates windows lol.  

How can I become a beta tester ?

[zackthedog]

8 hours ago, nbpf said:

Could you please post a pointer to UpMPD? Do you mean upmpdcli? I use MinimServer and upmpdcli (typically running on the same machine, a fitPC3 or Raspberry Pis with different extensions) and I am very pleased with this combination. If UpMPD is not upmpdcli, I would be interested in learning about it! Thanks, nbpf   

 

Sorry, my fault.  Yes, it's upmpdcli.  It will show up in Audirvana and BubbleUp as "UpMpd."

[zackthedog]

4 hours ago, nbpf said:

I have tried the real time kernel suggested in the above link (specifically, 4.9.0-5-rt-amd64) but it prevents the ethernet interface from becoming available at boot time. This sucks because my server runs headlessly and I access it remotely via ssh. Thus, I'm back to the default kernel. The rest of the installation corresponds more or less to my default setup. Very clear instructions, though. Thanks for the link!  

 

I'm not an expert on this, but I think it will depend on your hardware.  Some kernels may not have the correct drivers for your motherboard.  I'm using the old CAPS Carbon DN2800MT, which Intel stopped supporting in 2012.  Some versions of Linux and kernels work and some don't.  Did you try the lowlatency kernel?

[zackthedog]

3 hours ago, nbpf said:

 

 

Yes, that's it.  It's a very clever little thing he's done.  Unfortunately he has not been able to implement UEFI boot.   So if you have a mini-PC with a Bay Trail or Cherry Trail chip, and you cannot switch to "Legacy Boot" in the bios, it won't boot.  It also doesn't sound as good as the 24bit96 install--I don't know why.

[zackthedog]

4 hours ago, bodiebill said:

 

With Ubuntu 17.10/MPD as audio server:

Minimserver + BubbleUPnP on my Samsung phone sounds really good indeed with original DSD files and flac. However, I would prefer to upsample on-the-fly all my music to DSD256, as the DSD circuit of my Lampizator sounds better than the PCM circuit. Using an (offline upsampled) DSD256 file, I compared control points:

• JRiver – SQ subpar, no candidate
• Audirvana Plus – with no upsampling, sounds absolutely wonderful, however DSD256 sometimes stutters; DSD128 plays well
• HQPlayer + NAA image instead of Ubuntu/MPD – using DirectDSM, SQ comes near Audirvana, maybe a tad less involving (or is it the volume?); DSD256 plays well

So the choice is between A++Ubuntu/MPD and HQP+NAA.

 

I don't know how to fix the stutering since I don't use DSD.  Maybe you could google and see how to increase the buffer or something.  There's also a DSD version of MPD (mpd-dsd) and a DSD patch for MPD v19.  Perhaps those would help?

[zackthedog]

2 hours ago, ALRAINBOW said:

I am willing to test.  Computer savey dumb on Linux.  But I do know some dos I also have a Audio buddy who is a Linux wiz loves it and hates windows lol.  

How can I become a beta tester ?

 

I didn't know much about Linux either but got fairly competent after trying for six months to get MPD working. ;-)

 

Follow the instructions for installing Ubuntu as I mentioned.  It WILL wipe your drive so be prepared to reinstall whatever you had there before, or create a backup drive.

 

Once you've completed the basic installation, you can do the rest with line commands on the computer itself, or you can connect to the computer from another computer using PuTTY.  You need to find the IP address of your Ubuntu install, and you can either use a utility for this or log in to your router and see what the machine's IP address in.  It helps to tell your router to reserve that address for that computer so it's easier to find the next time.  My old motherboard will not display video with Linux so I use PuTTY so login in remotely and finish the installation.  PuTTY is also handy because you can keep the web page instructions open alongside the terminal and copy-and-paste his line commands into the terminal.  Highlight the line command on the web page, then in the terminal right-click to paste it in.

 

The first time you enter a "sudo" command it will ask for your password.  Any time he tells you to edit a file, you type "sudo nano /etc/samba/smb.conf" or whatever file he tells you to edit.  This opens the file in a text editor.  Use the arrow buttons on your keyboard to scroll through the text and edit the file.  Control+O (letter O)

then enter saves the changes.  Control+X exits the editor.  If you think you've made a mistake, hit Control+X to exit without saving changes and try again.

 

Maybe your friend could walk you through it.  Basic line-command skills are good to have when you're setting out to create your own custom renderer or player.

[nbpf]

36 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

 

Sorry, my fault.  Yes, it's upmpdcli.  It will show up in Audirvana and BubbleUp as "UpMpd."

Great, thanks!

[nbpf]

32 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

 

I'm not an expert on this, but I think it will depend on your hardware.  Some kernels may not have the correct drivers for your motherboard.  I'm using the old CAPS Carbon DN2800MT, which Intel stopped supporting in 2012.  Some versions of Linux and kernels work and some don't.  Did you try the lowlatency kernel?

The strange thing is that the first time I booted the server with the RT kernel it worked fine, after a second reboot, the wireless interface failed to become ready. I have checked the log files and tried to figure out what happens but eventually I gave up: every time the network interface is not up, I have to take the server out of the cabinet, connect it to the TV, boot with another kernel, deinstall the RT kernel ... The lowlatency kernel is not available as a Debian package, I can only install the RT kernel.  

[zackthedog]

1 hour ago, nbpf said:

The strange thing is that the first time I booted the server with the RT kernel it worked fine, after a second reboot, the wireless interface failed to become ready. I have checked the log files and tried to figure out what happens but eventually I gave up: every time the network interface is not up, I have to take the server out of the cabinet, connect it to the TV, boot with another kernel, deinstall the RT kernel ... The lowlatency kernel is not available as a Debian package, I can only install the RT kernel.  

 

Well, that's unfortunate.  I can only surmise that after the second boot it "broke" or failed to recognize the wireless interface.  As far as I'm able to understand, a RT kernel alters the way network interfaces respond.  Like I said, different kernels may or may not work well with certain hardware devices.

[bodiebill]

3 hours ago, zackthedog said:

 

I don't know how to fix the stutering since I don't use DSD.  Maybe you could google and see how to increase the buffer or something.  There's also a DSD version of MPD (mpd-dsd) and a DSD patch for MPD v19.  Perhaps those would help?

 

I am pretty sure the stuttering has to do with my mac, where the control point (Audirvana) is running. It only occurs when upsampling on-the-fly, not with original DSD files. Also, DSD256 stuttering almost disappears after changing settings in Audirvana, and is absent with DSD128.

 

My current version of MPD seems to handle native DSD very well. When I tried converting dsf to dopwav in Minimserver I only got hiss, but when I play a dsf file as is, it sounds great. So apparently MPD accepts native DSD – and lets it shine at that.

 

I again compared Audirvana + MPD with HQPlayer + NAA, and the former is clearly the winner. Perhaps the best sound I have had to date, even beats wtfplay by a hair's breadth. So I will upgrade from Audirvana 2 to 3.

 

Thanks again, zackthedog!

[bodiebill]

del.

[zackthedog]

Well, that's great news, and I'm glad I could help. :-)  I'll admit that this thread encouraged me to revisit this same setup and the combo of Audirvana and my stripped-down CAPS Carbon as a renderer really does sound terrific.  A change in USB cables really made it shine.

[zackthedog]

8 hours ago, bodiebill said:

A question about the MPD installation:

The hw identifier for my DAC regularly changes from hw:1,0 to hw:2,0 and back. Is there a way to make it persist?

 

I overlooked this question, sorry.  Occasionally when I switch USB cables I have to restart the renderer.  It may not be foolproof. ;-)  Again, don't know if you were able to configure alsa or alsa-base to default to the USB card.  Also, be sure you don't change USB ports.  Other than that I have not had that problem.  Here's a thread that might help:

 

https://superuser.com/questions/626606/how-to-make-alsa-pick-a-preferred-sound-device-automatically

[bodiebill]

Thanks. Same here: a few days ago a Lush usb cable arrived to add to the euphoria, so it was a good week!

[bodiebill]

12 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

 

I overlooked this question, sorry.  Occasionally when I switch USB cables I have to restart the renderer.  It may not be foolproof. ;-)  Again, don't know if you were able to configure alsa or alsa-base to default to the USB card.  Also, be sure you don't change USB ports.  Other than that I have not had that problem.  Here's a thread that might help:

 

https://superuser.com/questions/626606/how-to-make-alsa-pick-a-preferred-sound-device-automatically

 

Will have a look at that link. But you may be right: it could have been the result of changing usb ports. I now use usb 3.0 rather than 2.0, although I did not yet pay attention to the effect on SQ.

[zackthedog]

1 hour ago, bodiebill said:

Thanks. Same here: a few days ago a Lush usb cable arrived to add to the euphoria, so it was a good week!

 

I need to try one of those. :-)  

[bodiebill]

Since today music is heavily distorted (totally unlistenable) with BubbleUPnP + Minimserver + Ubuntu/UPMpd. I tried changing many settings in Minimserver properties (transcoding, no transcoding) and in /etc/mpd.conf but so far to no avail. I know it sounds a bit vague, but maybe someone has an idea?

 

(Luckily, Audirvana + Ubuntu/UPMpd is still making me happy!)