Operating systems and their sound signatures

[WuNgUn]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

 

That.

All matters. I could talk about it for days (or write multi volume books about it).

What about just disabling these devices in the device manager? Same thing?

If a DVD drive is plugged in, but not spinning, its are to imagine it effects anything!

[rando]

Peter, what are your thoughts on ECC versus non-ECC RAM's impact on SQ?  I have a good idea which and why.  Others might not have grasped you are talking about one and not the other.

 

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, WuNgUn said:

What about just disabling these devices in the device manager? Same thing?

 

That indeed matters too. But better is to shut off the device in the BIOS.

 

5 minutes ago, WuNgUn said:

If a DVD drive is plugged in, but not spinning, its are to imagine it effects anything!

 

When active (in BIOS / Device Manager) the OS kind of scans it (not physically, but in software). It goes way more deep because when certain devices are not present, the related services also don't need to run. Example : For USB hot-plug detection a service runs. When you are sure to never have any USB devices connected, that service can be disabled. If you use a USB DAC it is bad luck regarding this of course. In the end this extends to disabling USB in the BIOS as well. Also note that this can be for USB2 only, or for USB3 as well. And, use a USB PCIe card and the whole lot in the BIOS can be shut off (but choose one which is self-contained). This is just an example again.

Did I already say that I can talk about this for days ?

 

[PeterSt]

1 minute ago, rando said:

Peter, what are your thoughts on ECC versus non-ECC RAM's impact on SQ?

 

From (my own) theory only, non-ECC should be the better one.

Could try it with ECC for fun (using Xeon processors), but it is not so funny with the crazy prices of low profile RAM which I need for in the Stealth PC (anyone wants one ?).

 

What is your idea about it ?

[ALRAINBOW]

PETER not to scare you but I do agree with some of your posts.  

Having said this donyou agree with this 

does any one part of a mainboard and its add ons IE video card , usb card , ssd drive network etc ? 

If yes it’s why it may better not to power the M2

card from Main board. 

If a server has one drive alone just for OS 

the sound inproves of that drive is not using the mainboard bus power.  

Adding and internal drive for music it also needs its own v buss.  It’s not about power it’s abour noise going back to psu.  

Have you tried this concept just to test it. ? 

 

[bibo01]

4 minutes ago, ALRAINBOW said:

PETER not to scare you but I do agree with some of your posts.  

Having said this donyou agree with this 

does any one part of a mainboard and its add ons IE video card , usb card , ssd drive network etc ? 

If yes it’s why it may better not to power the M2

card from Main board. 

If a server has one drive alone just for OS 

the sound inproves of that drive is not using the mainboard bus power.  

Adding and internal drive for music it also needs its own v buss.  It’s not about power it’s abour noise going back to psu.  

Have you tried this concept just to test it. ? 

 

Just to add something...

In my cMP² days we discovered that motherboard power chips onboard (like audio or hdmi) even if they are disabled in bios.

I don't know on present motherboards, but I wouldn't be surprised if things haven't changed.

[PeterSt]

10 minutes ago, bibo01 said:

In my cMP² days we discovered that motherboard power chips onboard (like audio or hdmi) even if they are disabled in bios.

 

Yes. CICS and me started about the same time, where he was more hardware oriented and I approached it via software. Along the lines this changed as many of my users/customers came up with such tweaks. The CDRom drive was a first as I recall it, and it took a year before I believed so much in that that I started to try such things myself.

In the end I seem to be the keenest in everything (I mean of my user group) - it is all just different thinking (and belief in what's there to accomplish).

 

PS: Especially for you @bibo01 : we just shipped another goody to Italy, so it looks like Italians start to get the hang of hit. Don't shut off your USB !

hahaha

[PeterSt]

25 minutes ago, ALRAINBOW said:

If a server has one drive alone just for OS 

the sound inproves of that drive is not using the mainboard bus power.  

Adding and internal drive for music it also needs its own v buss.  It’s not about power it’s abour noise going back to psu.  

 

Hi Al,

 

Noise is not just noise, it is a residue of using power. Hard to explain. But think of my "peaky current draw" and try to see that those peaks / spikes (of current use) are the noise we talk about. Of course there is also general noise (which can be filtered out) but this is less severe.

The noise also creeps in the the (SATA) data lines. And you can't avoid that ...

 

Quote

Have you tried this concept just to test it. ?

 

No, but many others did and do that.

Please notice : I do not use any drive at all. No SSD/HDD for the OS, no SSD/HDD for the music. NOTHING. The OS and everything runs 100% from RAM (internal computer memory).

So there is not much for me to test. 

 

[PeterSt]

34 minutes ago, ALRAINBOW said:

does any one part of a mainboard and its add ons IE video card , usb card , ssd drive network etc ? 

If yes it’s why it may better not to power the M2

card from Main board.

 

Al, if I understand you correctly, you say that when I don't use the M.2 slot, I better cut the power to it. Is that right ?

I don't use it (no peripheral devices anywhere - only the CPU !) but I now wonder where to be to cut that from the power. I did not investigate it either (yet). Or maybe you mean in the BIOS ?

 

? 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, bodiebill said:

wtfplay is not a player installed on top of a Linux OS, but a minimized audio player OS in itself. I know of no way to use ssh with wtfplay.

 

Oh, it certainly is Linux! Just downloaded and looked at the image contents. And it contains whole pile of stuff that I doubt is even needed. Looks like it is based on Gentoo distribution. It's user-interface is based on well known old text-mode handling library called ncurses.

 

Something to fix then? That ncurses UI would work just fine over ssh or telnet.

[WuNgUn]

2 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

That indeed matters too. But better is to shut off the device in the BIOS.

 

 

When active (in BIOS / Device Manager) the OS kind of scans it (not physically, but in software). It goes way more deep because when certain devices are not present, the related services also don't need to run. Example : For USB hot-plug detection a service runs. When you are sure to never have any USB devices connected, that service can be disabled. If you use a USB DAC it is bad luck regarding this of course. In the end this extends to disabling USB in the BIOS as well. Also note that this can be for USB2 only, or for USB3 as well. And, use a USB PCIe card and the whole lot in the BIOS can be shut off (but choose one which is self-contained). This is just an example again.

Did I already say that I can talk about this for days ?

 

I hear ya... 

On the other hand, others might say that modern CPU'S and memory and buses are not bottlenecked in anyway to introduce latency issues with audio data stream... 

[rando]

Let's be fair in noting WTFplay is a very small long term side project by one person who was kind enough to let others play around with it and offer polite suggestions where it could stand to improve.  Tinkering in a shed.  No income.  No clients.  Linux was a new one on me and the sound quality of WTFplayer is quite good.  Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think it's just maturing to the point of being a good alternative to other free programs.  

 

Peter, I was fairly sure you used non-ECC memory and the fancy XX core Xeon both running on the lowest possible amount of power.  Which only relates to this thread due to my question of why you worked towards refining the consumer version of Windows.  There are better places to expand on memory speed, latency, etc.

[sligolad]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

Oh, it certainly is Linux! Just downloaded and looked at the image contents. And it contains whole pile of stuff that I doubt is even needed. Looks like it is based on Gentoo distribution. It's user-interface is based on well known old text-mode handling library called ncurses.

 

Something to fix then? That ncurses UI would work just fine over ssh or telnet.

Would appreciate feedback on how it sounds to you in its current state?

[PeterSt]

15 minutes ago, WuNgUn said:

On the other hand, others might say that modern CPU'S and memory and buses are not bottlenecked in anyway to introduce latency issues with audio data stream...

 

Who is talking about latency issues ?

[WuNgUn]

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Who is talking about latency issues ?

Well then, what issues are you experiencing with BT and USB adapters connected to your HTPC with regards to audio playback? 

[PeterSt]

Just now, WuNgUn said:

Well then, what issues are you experiencing with BT and USB adapters connected to your HTPC with regards to audio playback? 

 

 LOL. I am ONLY talking about SQ improvements. 

[WuNgUn]

Just now, PeterSt said:

 

 LOL. I am ONLY talking about SQ improvements. 

So am I... 

How does removing hardware improve SQ? What issues does it cause? 

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, WuNgUn said:

How does removing hardware improve SQ?

 

Same as how tearing down the OS helps SQ.

[WuNgUn]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

 

Same as how tearing down the OS helps SQ.

I'm not so sure that helps either... It's pretty subjective. Even though I try to slim down my OS anyway... 

[bodiebill]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Oh, it certainly is Linux! Just downloaded and looked at the image contents. And it contains whole pile of stuff that I doubt is even needed. Looks like it is based on Gentoo distribution. It's user-interface is based on well known old text-mode handling library called ncurses.

 

Something to fix then? That ncurses UI would work just fine over ssh or telnet.

 

hi Miska, I agree.

I know it is Linux, I just meant that (at least for me) it is difficult to use/tweak it as I would use/tweak a full-blown Linux OS.

I posted your suggestion in the wtfplay thread, addressed to wtfplay author Fryderyk.

[ALRAINBOW]

3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Al, if I understand you correctly, you say that when I don't use the M.2 slot, I better cut the power to it. Is that right ?

I don't use it (no peripheral devices anywhere - only the CPU !) but I now wonder where to be to cut that from the power. I did not investigate it either (yet). Or maybe you mean in the BIOS ?

 

? 

Sorry not my intended meaning. I meant if you are using it feed it with its own vbuss you would a sata drive 

[semente]

6 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Sure !

But you make us one which turns it on again when we want, OK ? 

 

Easy. When the selected track or tracks end, the music player restarts the Ethernet card. 

[seeteeyou]

5 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Merely peaky current draw. An SSD is the worst at that.

 

The latest and greatest ones aren't we want for music servers, the "trick" is getting something else that's tried and true

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=47&tab=comments#comment-644645

Quote

This Intel X25E is also a SATA II drive and so its typical current draw when idle is a minuscule 8mA and during routine "workstation type I/O" is only 220mA.

 

OTOH

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=47&tab=comments#comment-644453

Quote

 

2GB ECC DDR3 SDRAM UDIMM (1.5V)
Active standby current - 279mA
Operating burst read current - 675mA
Operating burst write current - 711mA
Burst refresh current - 1611mA

 

8GB ECC DDR3 SDRAM UDIMM (1.5V)
Active standby current - 738mA
Operating burst read current - 1728mA
Operating burst write current - 1431mA
Burst refresh current - 2340mA

 

 

My bet would be building Windows PE images that are 1GB or less while "defeating" 72-hour time limit as shown below

 

https://arcserve.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/202807255-arcserve-RHA-Bare-Metal-Recovery-Avoiding-72-Hour-Reboot-with-WinPE

 

Then we would run that kinda stuff off SD cards with extremely low current draw

 

https://www.mouser.com/access/?pn=922-603989

https://www.mouser.com/access/?pn=922-603991

 

Of course the challenge would be getting the device drivers and Roon etc. to work.

[PeterSt]

27 minutes ago, semente said:

Easy. When the selected track or tracks end, the music player restarts the Ethernet card. 

 

You know, very occasionally something happens which lets me lose the control. Say that my LAN went down.

And do you think I am going to sit out that album I don't like or is too loud (or too soft) without a pre-amp ?

I rather reboot.

 

Not a good solution. 

[PeterSt]

18 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

during routine "workstation type I/O" is only 220mA.

 

ONLY ?

That is more than my whole DAC uses !

 

I will read into your links tomorrow.