Vibration Air & Roller Bearings - Thanks to Barry & Warren

[Ralf11]

5 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

I do not know better or not, but these are quite reputable - http://www.symposiumusa.com/allproducts.html

 

 

I was amused by their non-guarantee "guarantee" -- that warns me away right away.

[AnotherSpin]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I was amused by their non-guarantee "guarantee" -- that warns me away right away.

 

Guarantee of what? You can not break the roller ball and metal cup. Unless you do it with some heavy machinery.

[Ralf11]

read their web site - they claim there is a Guarantee but there is none

 

 

[AnotherSpin]

If I will decide to buy Symposiums (and as per now I can not imagine a rationale to go for it) I would check their web site closely. But with all honesty I can not imagine the purpose of guarantee for such items. Would you help to understand?

[Ralf11]

satisfaction guaranteed

 

or performance guaranteed (hard to check for this product)

 

or return in 2 weeks; 4 weeks but pay shipping back and/or stocking fee

 

etc.

 

I agree a guarantee against breakage doesn't make much sense (unless it is made out of Chinese drywall...)

- just to keep the Chinese product thing going...

 

 

[AnotherSpin]

This is a small volume production of sophisticated items. You may write a mail to them and ask for satisfaction guarantee, I am pretty sure the will answer your needs.

[rando]

In what appears to be a rite of passage for those following down this path.  I got some very wild eyed looks from customers and employees alike in the tile section of two separate hardware stores today.  Somehow I got lucky and walked out with a completely dead 1/2" marble tile.  The difference in ringing between it and next closest out of 300 was astounding.  Placed it under a subwoofer using run of the mill 5/8" steel bearings on a 1" cutting board and lightly inflated inner tube.  

 

The change was not subtle.  Put on a few warm up tunes while I settled in to began typing this 20 minutes ago.  Withholding my full impressions until the correct cups have been sourced and put in place under everything for a week or so.  Not bad!

 

 

[Ralf11]

nothing sophisticated about those items

 

 

rando - completely dead 1/2" marble tile - is it curved?  how did you know it would be completely dead ??

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

11 hours ago, rando said:

The subject of his departure coming up in the last few posts of that thread in no way implied it was ascribed to something occurring in it.  Thank you for clearing this up for me and I agree it is a loss.  For better or worse, industry vets face an uphill battle here.  

 

Is anyone aware of a currently on the market roller bearing design that works better than one that was forwarded by BD?

 

 

 

 

 

There are no posts from Barry in the last several pages of that thread so one can only speculate about what happened by reading the pages around the time he 'left'. Certainly there was no hint on the last pages of why, just people noticing he was not there.

 

Yes, I fully agree that qualified and experienced vets like Barry have not always got the respect they deserve in fora including CA. I will say though, in the 2 years I have mainly been absent there is a conspicuous reduction in the amount of trolling by 'armchair experts' and sarcastic bickering. I noted Chris put an abrupt end to such an exchange in another thread recently.

 

No expert worth their salt expects not to be questioned or challenged.It is the way in which it is done! I will say for the record that Barry has the most patience, even and gentlemanly manner of anyone I have come across in this forum. he constantly affirms that he would never deny the sensibilities and experiences of others that leads to their particular enjoyment of music, however derived. In fact he goes out of his way to be accommodating.

 

That said he is, as I know him to be, a gentle and kind, passionate and sensitive human being. Yes, we can speculate why he left but IMO its not hard to connect the dots.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

11 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

12 hours ago, rando said:

 

Is anyone aware of a currently on the market roller bearing design that works better than one that was forwarded by BD?

 

 

I do not know better or not, but these are quite reputable - http://www.symposiumusa.com/allproducts.html

 

 

This website smacks of hype to me. There appears to be marketing spin woven into some truths which always makes me wary.

Admittedly I have not studied ALL of their information.

 

The mixture of isolation AND damping concerns me. The " simultaneous coupling and decoupling of audio " and "draining" the mechanical energy. Other stuff like their explanation of how spikes work, " spikes provide an escape route......funneling energy to a point and forcing it to encounter the support structure at an angle of 90 degrees, the optimum approach angle for energy transfer" . Pathways work both ways and from my understanding of forces 90 degrees would produce no vector force translation so it seems it would follow, no energy transfer.Again I am not a physicist or engineer.

 

It is entirely possible they work but NOT for the reasons or hype as advertised.IMO I come across similar scenarios in Medicine regarding "alternative" treatments. What more specifically concerns me is that the blocks have multiple bearings on the bottom "to ensure good support". 3 points of contact would appear ideal with more just complicating matters and maybe a source of chatter. The actual cup does not appear large enough in relation to the ball size to provide adequate space for the ball to have long slow excursions as required to be effective. Does anyone know their cost?

 

The Ingress ball and cups as mentioned earlier seem better to me.

 

The ball and sockets (cup) that Barry devised requires some hunting to find a machine shop and someone knowledgeable enough to oversee the quality of the machining to spec.My friend Warren was ale to source a supplier that was up to standard, after a couple of failures. 3 of us (myself,Warren, and Peter (audiotruth on CA) ordered, from memory, 100 cups ie 33 pieces each enough for 11 sets.All high quality and highly polished aircraft grade aluminum. It cost around $30US per set (of 3). Barry once told me he initially got some outrageous quotes but was eventually able to also get sets for a most reasonable price. Others have mentioned that Barry gave the specs in the old thread. The finished product comes with the 'guarantee' that Barry spent large amounts of time and research into their production, a man who is a perfectionist at his audio-engineering craft, and has an astute experienced audiophile ear.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

rando - completely dead 1/2" marble tile - is it curved?  how did you know it would be completely dead ??

 

The tile should be flat.

You rap the tile with your knuckles while holding it up to your ear. The "dead tile" produces the least ringing, a dull thud. Barry also tells funny stories of how mothers with their children gave him a wide berth when they came across him so testing tiles!

[Ralf11]

Thx - what keeps the ball on the tile if it is flat?

 

 

re: machining - if they were 3D printed then plated, a run could perhaps be made for fewer $$

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

24 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Thx - what keeps the ball on the tile if it is flat?

 

The fact that the ball beneath the tile is sitting in a cup/socket shaped convex down (concave up). It is the ground below that moves with respect to the tile and this displaces the ball up one of the sides of the cup. Provided the force of translation is not sufficient to roll the ball out of the cup, it is stable. From my basic physics days this was called an "unstable equilibrium" meaning the displaced object would always tend to return to the origin (like a pendulum). Think of a roller coaster with the carriage sitting at the bottom of the big U shaped track. Any force moving the carriage in any direction will be opposed by gravity returning it to the bottom. Now if you invert the U and stick the carriage at the top, any movement will send the carriage hurtling away from the origin and not to return. The latter an example of an "unstable equilibrium".

 

Edit: I should add that no such restriction to roller movement would appear desirable by the top surface and in the case of the tile would not occur. This would not appear to be the case with 3 piece "roller blocks" (cup below, then ball bearing, then cup above)

24 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

re: machining - if they were 3D printed then plated, a run could perhaps be made for fewer $$

Excellent but It does introduce more variables given that you appear to be bonding two materials rather than relying on a whole piece of aircraft grade aluminum.

[rando]

On 7/11/2015 at 3:46 AM, AnotherSpin said:

 

I have bad experience with marble. Selected most beautiful natural mediterranean 2 cm marble which was less-ringy from huge variety to which I compared it to be cut to my measures only to see afterwards that its polished surface was dented by chrome balls when used under heavy speakers. Natural marble is not hard and may be crumbly, and this quality should be considered. My suggestion would be to collect and try several different hardest plates from various materials. I believe hardness is no less important than ringing at least.

^^^ Very old quote

 

Suffice to say beauty was not on offer at the big box hardware store my chipped Carrera tile was sourced from.  Especially with the bottom facing upwards.  Carrera marble would no doubt have been a better choice for your large heavy speaker than the decorative variety you chose.  Yours is a good reminder to refrain from purchasing anything but the most quartz heavy and sturdiest varieties for upending and hiding under speakers or other heavy audio equipment.  

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

nothing sophisticated about those items

 

 

rando - completely dead 1/2" marble tile - is it curved?  how did you know it would be completely dead ??

 

It took me a second to disconnect these two as separate responses.  Combining your two quoted responses together I had a mental image of repurposing 200 year old marble tazzas under my equipment to act as cups.  Oddly enough you had come to a very similar conclusion and we were both mistaken.  In fact there was nothing sophisticated about the items I collected today.  That $4 outlay on tile, cutting board, and numerous sizes of bearings might even qualify as a scoring a point against the type of sophism that would market them for $$$ to audiophiles.  

 

Dead referred to making a  whumpph noise instead of a tinkk when smacked with my knuckles while holding it vertical with my other hand.  Doing that to 300 tiles was like playing 'bloody knuckles' as a kid.  As Audiophile Neuroscience noted, it is a flat floor tile that is polished on only one side.   

 

The bottom of my subwoofer has a slight texture which would impede the free motion of the three bearings it will oscillate on.  This is what the marble tile is used for.  The smooth polished side is placed face down onto the equally smooth and polished roller bearings to create an ideal upper surface.  The piece of equipment is then placed either on the ugly unfinished side of the tile or a more presentable piece of wood inserted between the two.  Much like yourself I have yet to attain any acceptable 7XXX aluminum cups to use yet. 

 

[jabbr]

35 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

re: machining - if they were 3D printed then plated, a run could perhaps be made for fewer $$

 

3D printing metal can be done but is expensive. Strongly suspect prices would be $$$

[rando]

2 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Yes, we can speculate why he left but IMO its not hard to connect the dots.

 

I appreciate that you are repeatedly willing to stand up for BD.  At some point you seized the narrative and took it beyond the request for a simple answer respecting the dignity it was phrased to protect.  Let's move on, to more fruitful constructs.  

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

17 minutes ago, rando said:

I appreciate that you are repeatedly willing to stand up for BD.  At some point you seized the narrative and took it beyond the request for a simple answer respecting the dignity it was phrased to protect.  Let's move on, to more fruitful constructs.  

 

Rando I merely replied to your comment.You are entitled to your opinion that I took it beyond a request for a simple answer. I don't consider the subject material necessarily simple.Yes, I am happy to stand up for BD. However if you do not bring it up, I will not reply.

Cheers

David

[Ralf11]

48 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

3D printing metal can be done but is expensive. Strongly suspect prices would be $$$

 

 

well there are 2 I have access to here - OTOH, I don't know how to use them

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

The fact that the ball beneath the tile is sitting in a cup/socket shaped convex down (concave up). It is the ground below that moves with respect to the tile and this displaces the ball up one of the sides of the cup. Provided the force of translation is not sufficient to roll the ball out of the cup, it is stable. From my basic physics days this was called an "unstable equilibrium" meaning the displaced object would always tend to return to the origin (like a pendulum). Think of a roller coaster with the carriage sitting at the bottom of the big U shaped track. Any force moving the carriage in any direction will be opposed by gravity returning it to the bottom. Now if you invert the U and stick the carriage at the top, any movement will send the carriage hurtling away from the origin and not to return. The latter an example of an "unstable equilibrium".

 

 

I understand neutral stability and the associated differential eqns.  but what is the 'cup' you refer to??

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I understand neutral stability and the associated differential eqns.  but what is the 'cup' you refer to??

Hi Ralph

There was a typo in my description of equilibrium with the first scenario should have read stable not unstable equilibrium.

 

The cup or socket as Barry refers to it in reference to his "hip joint" is the scooped out depression in the aluminium block in which the ball rolls.

[Ralf11]

so I'm guessing the tile goes above the ball...

 

BTW, for more fun, you can emulate a stable limit cycle (characteristic of simple dynamical systems) by taking a doogie dish, flipping it over, and placing a ball in the cross-section "V" that circles the mounded part (which would be an unstable eql. point)

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

6 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

so I'm guessing the tile goes above the ball...

 

Yes smooth side down onto the ball.

It is much more stable in feel than I anticipated.just a nice little wobble when poked.of course you wouldn't want kids or pets crashing into the gear. I have a child proof gate at the end of the corridor leading to the music room.my dog sits and listens glum faced on the other side.as I mentioned in another thread he pays attention to sound that he thinks is real.he likes the addition of the isolators!

[AnotherSpin]

6 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

nothing sophisticated about those items

 

Materials + measurements + quality of processing. You may want to read counterfeit paragraph from their site. Though, as you are in a drawer pulls mode, slip it altogether.

 

[AnotherSpin]

6 hours ago, rando said:

In what appears to be a rite of passage for those following down this path.  I got some very wild eyed looks from customers and employees alike in the tile section of two separate hardware stores today.  Somehow I got lucky and walked out with a completely dead 1/2" marble tile.  The difference in ringing between it and next closest out of 300 was astounding.  Placed it under a subwoofer using run of the mill 5/8" steel bearings on a 1" cutting board and lightly inflated inner tube.  

 

The change was not subtle.  Put on a few warm up tunes while I settled in to began typing this 20 minutes ago.  Withholding my full impressions until the correct cups have been sourced and put in place under everything for a week or so.  Not bad!

 

Cups, cups, cups. Roller balls shouldn't just move around, they should oscillate back and forth and this is provided by curvature. Barry was very detailed on this. Cups curvature proportioned well against the diameter of roller balls is critical. You may hear difference in sound just because the cup have more or less deep concave. And again, only best alu will not have dents which will interfere in free movement of the roller balls. Material of roller balls is important as well. They "sound" different. 

[AnotherSpin]

4 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

The tile should be flat.

You rap the tile with your knuckles while holding it up to your ear. The "dead tile" produces the least ringing, a dull thud. Barry also tells funny stories of how mothers with their children gave him a wide berth when they came across him so testing tiles!

 

I tried several materials - marble, ceramic, aluminum, glass. As I remember, alu plates worked better, but even they provided some coloration. Finally I set for combination of two cups with roller ball inside for heavy components, and cup+ball+alu plate for light ones.