Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[left channel]

1 hour ago, buonassi said:

 

Aha, likely a completely different set of internals.  Thx sir.

 

Yes. One DAC chip instead of two, among other differences. Basically it's called "S2+" but actually it's a minus.

[left channel]

@PowerAudio what version of the firmware is in your S2D? On the device or the remote press the Menu button and then the down arrow twice to display.

[left channel]

@PowerAudio sounds more like a Mac settings thing. Wish I could help but I'd have to borrow a Mac first. Forgot to answer your other question, sorry: when receiving an authenticated MQA signal the DAC will display a blue dot and also the final unfolded sample rate. (That same dot will glow green if MQA but not verified by the copyright holder, and pink/purplish if software decoding by your Tidal app is detected.)

[left channel]

@Fella55 the Stream Box S2 Ultra is an interesting design. In the original announcement it was said to be built around Raspberry Pi and Volumio. I see the price has increased 200 Euros since then, to 799 (USD $950).

 

This makes it more expensive than a Sonore ultraRendu but less than a SOtM sMS-200ultra, while offering fewer apps than either. But it offers more hardware connectivity features, including wired and wireless Ethernet and an anti-jitter USB hub. Very ambitious! And if it remains an open RasPi Volumio design, one could theoretically install any apps that turn out to be missing, and may even plug in something like the SOtM clock.

 

I doubt Pro-Ject and their dealers are prepared to support us on any such additions, or even with simple Roon issues. Not yet. But I have suggested they get online and help us help ourselves in a sponsored online forum. Fingers crossed.

[left channel]

@Fella55 yes, please do start another thread and drop the link in here! I already have a house full of streamers (one ultraRendu and several Squeezeboxes served by a microJukebox), so am done for a while at least but I'll follow the conversation with interest.

[left channel]

@Javier de Esteban it should only display that logo while starting up. The logo should disappear quickly, the screen should display the status screen (showing volume, connections, and sample rate), and the buttons should work. I suggest you return it for exchange or refund.

[left channel]

17 minutes ago, Javier de Esteban said:

Thank you guys!

After thousands of plug in/plug out, I have finally been able to run it for a few minutes. I have played MQA from Tidal with no issues but it has stopped playing when I have changed to a non MQA song.

Then I have changed to Qobuz and I got no sound either.

So I have unplugged and plugged again and got to the logo only phase again.

Any other thoughts or should I just return it and ask for a new one?

thanks again!!

j

 

Return it.  It's defective.

[left channel]

@Javier de Esteban good luck with the new cable. Let us know what happens, but I remain suspicious of the S2D itself.

[left channel]

5 hours ago, Javier de Esteban said:

Hi again!

Just received a replacement for the S2D and works perfect!

Thanks again for you help.

Now I am thinking on upgrading it with an EPS. Which one would you recommend? I have read the recommendations from the designer, but I am not so expert to decide which would be the best option on the budget/mid range.

Thanks!

Javier

 

Glad to hear that news, thanks for letting us know! You'll find lots of previous discussion of power supplies here. I'm happy with a cheap linear "wall-wart", while others are happy upgrading to an iFi switching PSU even though the designer recommends only linear. Others are happy with a Teradak, and on up past the UpTone LPS and into the pricing stratosphere.

[left channel]

2 hours ago, Javier de Esteban said:

Thanks!

Please apologize me for my ignorance but, what's the difference between the provided PSU and a cheap linear wall-wart?

I assume that the provided is not linear, right?  

I was thinking on the iFi until I read about the designer recommendation.

Best!

J

 

The provided PSU is switching. The designer says the provided PSU is intended for use with S/PDIF connections only, and recommends a linear PSU when connected via USB. If you search this topic for "PSU" you'll get two pages of results.

[left channel]

Relevant posts from the Mytek Liberty thread:

 

5 hours ago, arcman said:

Has anyone compared the Liberty to the Pro-Ject S2 side by side

 

Steven Stone reviewed the Pro-Ject S2 in the latest TAS and compared the Liberty Dac. Paraphrasing, Steven stated the S2 was not a big step downwards from the Liberty, more like a sideways step. 

 

2 hours ago, Kilauea50 said:

I have had both.  While the S2 does sound good, the build quality is horrible.  I have had 3.  The usb just stops working.  The first unit was playing and suddenly I had no music. I had not touched it since it was connected to a preamp.  I moved it to make sure the cable was plugged in ok and the whole jack fell out.  Audio Advisor replaced it and the second unit lasted about 6 weeks before the USB just stopped working.  I sent it back and they replaced it under warranty.  I decided then to get the Liberty.  The build quality is just so much better.  I saw a number of posts on the Roon forums of the S2 jack failing.  I would encourage you to get the Liberty if the $500 is doable

 

[left channel]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

I think I've got some luck with my earlier unit then, it's been running 24/7 (because it doesn't have a power switch) without problems. So since something like September 2017. Maybe Pro-Ject has been doing some "cost optimizations" recently.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Same for me - not a single issue running 24/7. Fed via HQPe DSD512 via a microrendu  , sounds superb.

 

 

Mine's been good too, on the hardware side at least. But the production run immediately before and the run(s) after ours have not been high quality. Problems have ranged from out-of-spec part substitution to connectors simply falling off the board.

The firmware has been a problem throughout. They appear to have neither tested at the factory nor paid the developer to fix bugs. Firmware updates are to be expected, not to mention ongoing technical support, but Pro-Ject management seems to have been completely unprepared and uninterested.

 

This is an award-winning product for which we all had high hopes, so it has been quite a disappointment. Similar firmware issues appear to be cropping up in another DAC in the S2 line, the Head Box S2 Digital. Pro-Ject has issued no firmware update for that one, and isn't even responding to inquiries. #Sad.

[left channel]

9 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

The only firmware issue I'm aware of (as of the current version, after they fixed other issues) is the MQA one which they know about but I feed it DSD512 via HQPe and never had a firmware issue.

 

I may be the exception and not the rule though.

 

That's the only remaining one, as far as I know: changing from MQA back to PCM with the Optimal Tranient filter engaged results in "thin" sound.

However, the Head Box S2 Digital exhibits some or all of the problems of the original Pre Box S2 Digital firmware, including loud pops and clicks when the sample rate changes between 44.1 and 48 kHz or their multiples.

John Westlake is no longer associated with Pro-Ject, but he has committed to releasing one more bug fix update just to be a good guy, and after that he may release an upgrade for a small fee to truly realize his vision for this design.
 

[left channel]

27 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

For me, it is not much issue since the device performs fine under my (maybe niche) use case... So the latest firmware is fine for me.

 

 

It's fine for me too, now that I use the filter you recommend. Thanks! Oh, and by the way you may have missed this question:

2 hours ago, creativepart said:

Miska, outside of build quality - how does the S2 compare soundwise to the B-Dack+ overall? Big difference?

 

[left channel]

@Mark Dirac that didn't happen to me with the 1809 update, though it's not at all surprising after decades of the same behavior. Still, I have to wonder if this is yet another example of poor testing at Pro-Ject. Over on pinkfishmedia it's been reported that an S2D stopped working with someone's iPad after the latest iOS update.

[left channel]

15 minutes ago, fgribas said:

New driver available, an updated Thesycon driver 4.47

 

https://www.project-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/UNI_Project_v4.47.0_2018-09-05_setup.zip

 

The link will change when they update the S2D page, but this link will work for some days.

 

Thank you! After downloading and installing, I can confirm:
* the Pro-Ject website does not yet offer this download, and
* this is a Windows driver update only; it does not include a device firmware update

@Mark Dirac please let us know if this fixes the issue you reported above.

[left channel]

7 minutes ago, Mark Dirac said:

I'm afraid this is a day too late - as I said in my post above "I selected 'update driver' and pointed device manager to search my hard drive and it found a driver & installed it. Now working."

 

But I need to add a section about software versions to the summary document. I think there's 3 bits of software we use? (a) firmware (b) driver and (c) the "Pro-Ject  Audio Control Panel" which I've never understood. Is the XMOS software in the driver? Or is the XMOS software the driver? And who is Thesycon? Did Thesycon write the driver for XMOS? Hmm.

 

I read so many questions and complaints about this device, it's hard to keep track, sorry. I hope all the advertising of the S2D Pro-Ject is doing on this site is an indication that they've also invested some money in maintaining it. The release of this new driver may indicate they are indeed doing so.

My guess is that Thesycon is the contractor they've retained to take over from John Westlake on driver and firmware development. Based on their website, that is their specialty. As for the three components, the control panel apparently comes with the driver package and communicates with the driver and the firmware, to offer control and monitoring of what the PC sends and what the device does with it.

[left channel]

14 minutes ago, fgribas said:

"Pro-Ject Audio Control Panel" is a part of the driver. Thesycon is a company that makes the driver for Pro-Ject any many other DACs based on XMOS chip.

 

For the firmware I'm not sure,  but I think is also made by Thesycon.

 

The earlier drivers and firmware were developed by John Westlake. John has promised us one final firmware bug fix update, and a future optional firmware upgrade to reach the full potential of his vision for this product. But John is no longer associated with Pro-Ject, Thesycon also does firmware, and I'd be happy enough if Thesycon takes over the bug fixing for the S2D and other DACs in the S2 line.

[left channel]

4 minutes ago, fgribas said:

 

Pro-Ject is aware of the need for a new firmware. I've been talking with their support about firmware and drivers. Hopefully it will be released soon.

 

Thesycon won't take over the product, unfortunately. Not for free. As far as I know, the manufacturer (Pro-Ject) pays Thesycon to develop new drivers.

 

By looking at the 3 versions of the driver we have so far (looking at the inf files, control panel etc of each driver), it seems that all of them were made by Thesycon.

 

Thesycon worked in close consultation with John on the drivers then. Interesting. Well, according to their website they also do firmware, and we can only hope that one or the other will produce a firmware update for this device, and for the other DACs in the S2 line (which still contain bugs that were fixed in the last firmware update for the S2D).

[left channel]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

So far, all driver's I remember seeing shipped with XMOS-based devices have been Thesycon ones.

 

Lot of devices out there that use XMOS chips have either XMOS' or Thesycon's USB vendor id. Only few manufacturers get their own USB vendor id. So you pretty much also know where the firmware was sourced from. 

 

 

We know John Westlake worked on the firmware. He also responded to us about driver / control panel changes in a way that sounded like ownership, but apparently he was working with Thesycon on those.

 

John is no longer associated with Pro-Ject, but a few months ago he promised to produce one final firmware bug fix update — on his own time, for free — just for completeness. He also said he then wanted to offer an optional inexpensive firmware upgrade, to realize his full vision for this design.

 

However, since then he's seemed fully occupied with his MDAC project, and hasn't responded to further queries nor made any statements on this topic.

[left channel]

1 hour ago, Mark Dirac said:

I have given up with the complexities and ambiguities of MQA and Tidal Masters, and have moved to Qobuz. Thanks to left channel for the gentle persuasion.

 

But I am surprised to see such a baffling set of "audio output" options, and can find no explanation or FAQ answer.

 

My selected output "Pro-Ject Box ASIO Driver" does not appear anywhere in Windows 10, specifically nowhere in the Windows 10 Sound Settings. Is it the case that Qobuz is bypassing Windows's sound stuff straight to the Pro-Ject driver somehow, in a way which Tidal does not? 

 

Can anyone enlighten me please? Left channel?

 

 

 

Mine looks similar. That Pro-Ject ASIO driver and many others are always available in your system. If you look instead at the list available via Account icon > Music Playing > Listening preferences, you'll find that one and other unfamiliar choices listed there, and other player apps often list even more. The pop-up menu you've opened in the screen shot above is an attempt at simplification similar to what the main Windows Control Panels and the Tidal app do: hide everything except connected hardware "Speakers". Something weird about the Pro-Ject ASIO driver causes the Qobuz app to display it there too, probably because it is the manufacturer's priority driver for that device. It works, but WASAPI is a newer driver standard and works great with the S2D too. Try Exclusive Mode, just like in Tidal.

 

Oh, and welcome to the Light Side! (As opposed to the Dark Side.)

[left channel]

1 hour ago, fgribas said:

It's just a matter that Tidal app doesn't support ASIO output, only WASAPI.

 

This is the main reason I use Roon, it supports output to ASIO drivers.

 

WASAPI (wth Exclusive Mode) and ASIO are both bit-perfect. But ASIO sounds better. Not every bit-perfect chain sounds the same. ASIO is better than WASAPI (many will disagree, many will say "bit-perfect is always the same" but that's not true).

 

Kernel Streaming sounds even better than ASIO, but there's a compromise with stability and compatibility. Almost no app supports KS.

 

Well, to use Tidal with ASIO you need another player that supports Tidal and ASIO output. Roon is great, but expansive as hell. You can use the default Tidal Windows app with the ASIO4ALL app: it's a virtual driver routes a WASAPI output to an ASIO driver. I used this chain before buying Roon.

 

When I play Tidal and other stuff through Squeezelite clients I'm using ASIO. Not sure I hear an improvement, and also there's no MQA in that app. But at this point I'm mostly streaming Qobuz anyway — and the Radio Paradise FLAC streams. I'll try switching between the ASIO and WASAPI options in the Qobuz app again as time allows.

[left channel]

5 hours ago, RicaNeaga said:

Hello! Just bought this DAC, and I've read several posts on this topic regarding power supply. Can you please recommend the best choice for a power supply?

 

To be more specific, I want to connect it to my PC via the USB port (for Tidal & MQA), however I found this in the user guide:

 

 

So what choices do I have? Is really an external power supply out of the question when using the USB port for PC connectivity? I've seen many thinking of buying ''chinese linear power supply'' - are these better than a iFi Audio iPower 5v and can these be used concurrently with a PC USB connection? Can you recommend some specific linear power supply that are below a 100 euro price limit?

 

Thank you in advance  

 

8 minutes ago, MagnusH said:

That part of the manual is wrong (confirmed by John Westlake who designed this DAC). If you use an external power to the micro connection, the power is taken from there and not from the big USB A connection. A first step which gives a little boost to SQ is to buy an iFi Power 5V which costs around $60.

If playing from a PC I would also suggest some USB tweak, or use optical. To much electronic noise coming from the PC over a straight USB connection (I use mine with toslink).

 

@RicaNeaga John Westlake further recommended only a linear power supply or battery bank, and Pro-Ject has since announced products that meet those requirements: https://www.project-audio.com/en/category/hifi-electronics/s2-line/power-s2-line/

 

The iFi iPower is a switching PSU, not linear, however @MagnusH and others say it does produce an improvement in sound quality. For that matter even the included switching PSU, which John does not recommend (for technical reasons I can point you to if interested) actually does provide an improvement to my ears. But to meet John's requirements, I did upgrade to an $11 linear wall-wart. Others have selected higher-end linear PSUs from China and elsewhere, and are very happy with them.

Whatever you choose, I've found that using external power provides the most notable improvement, with USB anti-jitter etc. cleaners providing a small additional boost in sound quality.

[left channel]

49 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

I have an Audiolab 8200CD, also designed by John Westlake. The unit has internal power supplies, does not use power from the USB cable. I found that blocking the USB 5V pin improves the sound, making voices in particular sound more cohesive. This may be worth a try with the Pro-Ject box.

 

Initially I just blocked the USB A connector's 5V pin with electrical tape. I am now using an iFi Audio iDefender, which severs the 5V feed and helps with grounding if you have a problem (I don't). This is an inexpensive tweak and well worth a try.

 

PS My last CD player was another Lakewest design, the Cambridge IsoMagic/DacMagic. John helped me upgrade the power supply to amazing effect. I'm patiently waiting for the FDAC.

 

@audiobomber @RicaNeaga unfortunately the S2D does not work that way. It seems to require power on the USB line just to detect the existence of that input, even when it has external power.

[left channel]

1 hour ago, arcman said:

If one purchased the power BOX s2, how would one hook to the Prebox. Does the Poer Box come with cables?

 

It would connect to the the 5V USB outlet on the Power Box. You'll have to ask a dealer or Pro-Ject what cables come with the Power Box — the website, data sheet, and manual do not offer that information — but a male USB A to male micro USB cable is easy enough to find.