How DOES the grounding boxes work?

[Cornan]

Just now, wgscott said:

 

No, you just have to explain why anyone should take absurd claims about obvious hucksterism seriously.

 

Just because you have'nt tried it yourself. Your claims is simply not valid.

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Same problem with basic Physics.

 

Explain why grounding boxes is against physics.

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

It violates Conservation of Charge.

 

Next?

 

Que?

[Cornan]

Just now, wgscott said:

 

Perhaps your time might be better spent if you learned some basic, high school-level physics.

 

Teach me! ?

[Cornan]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

I thought I did? Want me to repeat it?

 

If you did well yes! 

[Cornan]

Just now, wgscott said:

 

Teach yourself:  

 

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/

 

 

 

Sorry, now you're a bit stupid again.

 

[Cornan]

Just now, AJ Soundfield said:

Start with learning how to use the proper test instrument for measuring such a device

 

 

 

So you mean that you know how to measure how grounding boxes works? Great, give it to me! ?

[Cornan]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You have some very smart and talented people trying to help you and giving their own valuable time. 

 

More comments like this and you'll be asking for help on another site. 

 

Sorry Chris! I was just referring to the OP. Maybe it came out wrong?

 

Quote

Above all keep it civil and without any personal attacks or stupid comments please! ?

 

I would love a discussion on this matter that could dig deeper in the subject rather than being a center for ironic comments.

[Cornan]

9 hours ago, esldude said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_conservation

 

wgscott normally gets paid to teach college students.  You'll need to find a high school teacher to start with high school level physics. 

 

You keep saying teach me, but you have to be willing to do your part as a student. 

 

I haven't gone thru these lessons here.  They claim to be equivalent to two terms of college level physics.  If you would like to learn for yourself give it a try, and it you find yourself lost, then maybe back up a step to something more basic.

 

http://fearofphysics.com/Videos/

 

 

 

I honestly do want to know how they work, but do not expect me to read the laws of physics. I am only interested if someone have a clue how they work. Not if someone do not have a clue. 

[Cornan]

5 hours ago, fas42 said:

At least there has has been a bit more supplied to the subject - the info about tourmaline. Personally, I've never tried any such ideas, but the concept of self-capacitance may figure in this, and/or static issues. The latter is a biggy, and I've spent much time working out approaches to mitigate the audible influence of this - don't ask me why it should have significant impact, it just does! If I don't tackle this, then I don't get the quality I'm after - so, for me it's a necessary.

 

So, the "grounding boxes" may be about neutralising static build up, in some fashion - it's as good a theory as any floating around ...

 

Tourmaline stones, copper and silver are the main ingredients in the grounding boxes. As far as I see it there must be a reason for it to enhance SQ. They are usually very effective in chassi groundI and signal ground. I am all for the possibilities that it could deal with anti-statics for example.

[Cornan]

2 hours ago, marce said:

No the ground is NOT negatively charged. These grounding boxes only exist (like a few other far out components) in the esoteric audio world, no other area of electronics, why is that one wonders. How many studios use these. How many high precision, low noise measurement set ups use them... That has to speak volumes about their effectiveness, they are only sold into a market where data sheets and measurements or even a basic explanation on how they work is not required, just some good marketing and a few believers...

Most other references to tourmaline stones is of this nature...

https://www.healingcrystals.com/Crystals_for_Electromagnetic_Pollution_from_Computers_Articles_592.html

Sorry for being rather abrupt, but these sort of devices and claims detract from the already abundant real problems in audio reproduction and neither forward the quest for fidelity or give the hobby a good name.  

I know ground is a 0v reference and that ground is not negatively charged. I am trying to understand why the work? I know they do. They might not do it as a ground reference in a proper sence, but they seem to make those spots better. Could this be due to a reduction of anti-statics do you think? 

[Cornan]

8 minutes ago, mansr said:

Your honesty doesn't seem to include the possibility that they don't work.

Too bad. Physics is where you'll find the answer.

Then why do you keep dismissing everybody who tries to give you an explanation?

 

I think the OP clearly indicates that I want to know why they WORK. Not why the do not work. It would be interesting to know theories that explains a plausible explanation, even if that explanation does'nt include grounding in a proper sense.

[Cornan]

13 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

@Cornan, if there is an actual difference you are hearing, this is so far the only explanation I have seen that makes any sense to me.

 

Otherwise, I haven't seen any logical explanation as to why it should help to run wire(s) to what I will ask you to forgive me for calling a "box of rocks."

 

Well that is the problem I hope we could find a clue to solve. I am quite sure that anyone that have actually tried them are believers as long as they have tried it on several spots. The point is that they do not work everywhere, but always somewhere in the setup. Due to the specific Tourmaline stone properties it is not far off to think that it reduces anti-statics. But could a reduction in anti-statics improve the ground path in any way? 

IME grounding boxes are especially effective on chassis & shields. This also indicates to me that it deals with anti-statics. What do you think Jud?

[Cornan]

Quote

"Storing" them requires an electrical charge to build up in the box or to be converted into some other kind of energy (light, heat, radio waves, etc.).

This is interesting since tourmaline stones are negatively charged and have both piezo- and pyroelectrical properties. Could they actually store them?

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, marce said:

NO, they add noise if anything they do NOT remove it.

 

Tormaline stones are used in hair dryers etc to remove anti-statics, so they do work for that purpose. They just need heat. Could positive charges provide the heat for the tourmaline stones?

[Cornan]

Quote

My belief is that the best approach is to make a system 'robust'; that is, zero impact when a grounding box is tried - but achieving that may not be easy.

 

I actually share that beleif!

In some parts of my system the grounding boxes have no positive effect. Usually in places were I use floating ground and unshielded ICs without GND and 5v. Interesting thing is that a network switches is different IME. It improves despite these "optimal" circumstances. Might be a clue??

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, soxr said:

You can always use audiodiffmaker to measure with and without the tweak and measure differences.
 

Unfortunately it seems that audiodiffmaker is not a very scientific way to prove anything. There have been a lot of discussions regarding this perticular software. A pity though since it could have been a good way to see if it makes any noticable difference.

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Tourmaline, (besides its miraculous healing properties) generates both, positively and negatively charged ions when activated by mechanical pressure.  The crystals produce static electricity by internal friction when so activated. So, perhaps you need to sit on the rocks or hammer them to get the positive effect on SQ? Is that the recommended application of grounding boxes? 

 

AFAIK it is enough to keep the tourmaline stones under pressure to release ions. If you shake a Entreq grounding box you cannot even hear the stones moving inside. 

Aucharm grounding boxes have loose stones inside, but their grounding box isn't as effective either.

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, soxr said:

 

So propose a better method

 

Sorry, but I do not know of any other method.

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Well, it isn’t as if your equipment is shuffling across the carpet building up static charges - at least I hope not!   As marce says, your equipment shouldn’t be building up static charge because it always has a place to discharge to.  (It is the same as if you were always touching grounded metal - you wouldn’t build up static charge either.)

 

So granting that you are hearing some difference, either you are affecting ground loops/noise in the system (in which case, as mansr says, any connection such as a simple wire should suffice; or better still, simplifying wiring in your system to the extent possible and paying careful attention to grounding to minimize any ground, leakage, or other noise currents); or the wire to the box is acting as an antenna and you are indeed changing the sound by actually adding noise.

 

I personally think the first of these (changing ground currents/noise) is more likely in most people’s systems, though of course I don’t know about yours in particular.

 

Interesting! I like the idea that the grounding boxes are changing ground currents/noise! ? Do you think they block them or just reduces them?

I can tell you that I always found the grounding boxes to have "similar" effects to a GND-lift.

[Cornan]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

So is your theory then that a build up of static electricity in tourmaline (happens even if nothing is attached to it) causes some sort of beneficial effect on SQ? There are much cheaper ways to produce a static electric charge.

 

 

I am no scientist. I have just my very own theories based on the properties of the tourmaline stones. I am quite sure there are many other ways to make the same improvements, and would love to learn about them.

IMO it could be either that the boxes deals with anti-statics or ground loops as mentioned by @Jud. I am interested in any plausible explanation why the grounding boxes affects SQ. Ofcourse it is not likely that I believe in an explanation that decrease SQ since I have very positive results myself! ?

[Cornan]

13 minutes ago, semente said:

 

The bit I highlighted seems, in my view, to be the cause of all this misunderstanding.

 

Some of the participants in the conversation have put forward possible explanations for an audible change to the signal.

But apparently you didn't find a a single one of them satisfactory because they clearly do not reflect or explain whatever expectations (belief) you have for grounding boxes and the mechanics at stake.

i find extreme experimentation quite commendable as long as one's attempts at explaining observed phenomena do not go (too far) beyond reason aka science.

 

@AJ Soundfield has been mentioning bias quite often; in addition to visual bias there is also that which comes from reading the propaganda which manufacturers issue about their products and also from reading reviews.

In my opinion one should not read reviews before assessing the sound of an equipment for that particular reason.

 

I do take anything into consideration. That's is why I have invited disbelievers to this thread in the first place. My only problem is that it seems that I am the only one here that have actually tried them IRL. Based on my personal good experiances in a well isolated setup I just find it hard to believe in theories that decrease SQ or do not affect SQ at all.

 

[Cornan]

19 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

Why do you need an objective crutch for your purely subjective perception?

Not enough to just "experience" it?

 

For me this hobby is purely subjective, but it is always interesting to know objective views as long as they comes from real life experiances & experiments.

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Ah - that would seem to be an indication in favor of the possibility that what you are hearing is a change in ground or leakage currents.

 

If that’s the case, you might well be able to take measures that are both less expensive and more effective.  There was a system topology thread here a while ago that might be helpful along the general lines of simplifying and rationalizing your system layout.  And I dare say @marce, @Speedskater, and other members who have a great deal of useful knowledge about system grounding issues could possibly be very helpful if you gave them detailed information about your system, its layout, power connections, etc.

 

I know about the system typology thread. I posted there as well. 

Here is my latest system typology for anyone here to view and comment upon. The Entreq Minimus is connected to the Aqvox switch.

 

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, marce said:

I presume each grounding point in an extreq box is isolated from the others?

 

 

 

I use Entreq Minimus connected to one device only. Entreq Tellus have several grounding points which are isolated from each other.