Optane SSD as Boot drive - SQ Nirvana?

[lmitche]

40 minutes ago, tims said:

This addonics board is exactly what I'm after but don't have any spare PCLe slots left on my server/player,  Anyone know of any way I can make it work externally with external power and using spare USB ports?

 

Thanks

Sure, use an Adnaco fiber attached pcie extension. Not USB based, but works. The thunderbolt nvme solution described above may be cheaper.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Not a bad option for those of us who do have motherboards with CPU-connected PCIe x16 slots & bifurcation support, though that's gotta be Ryzen Threadripper / Intel Core X-Series / Xeon etc. with tons of PCIe lanes

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815548004

https://www.techpowerup.com/240481/asrock-intros-ultra-quad-m-2-card

https://www.asrock.com/mb/spec/product.asp?Model=ULTRA QUAD M.2 CARD

https://techreport.com/news/33100/asrock-ultra-quad-m-2-card-puts-four-nvme-ssds-in-a-pcie-slot

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/quad-m-2-pcie-x16-nvme-raid0-adapter-by-asrock.18949/

 

Nice find! This should work well with a single Optane.

[lmitche]

7 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Hey guys...just an FYI...my mobo today all of sudden decided to go into an endless bootloop.  I figured out there is some issue with the lastest version of the bios supporting Optane causing it not work with XMP profiles.  After some searching it seems this is a well known issue with my mobo, a Gigabyte Z270MX Gaming 5.  The solution is to not use XMP.  Not sure if running my RAM at the lower speed instead of 3000Mhz impacts the sound in anyway.  I need to test.

 

Anyway, here is a post I did on this issue with the link describing the issue in more detail.  BTW, the issue was reported back in 2017 and Gigabyte still has yet to come up with a solution.

 

What a bummer! I only use Asus motherboards for reasons like this. It is impressive how quickly you found the solution.

 

I run my memory at 2400 MHz.  Last I checked a year ago, faster had a negative SQ impact.

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Good to know!  BTW, whats really weird is that my mobo worked fine for the past week since I installed the Optane.  I've rebooted numerous times without a problem.  Then today, while playing music it just shut down and rebooted endlessly.  Why would it happen now instead of right away when I first installed the Optane?

It's hard to know the answer to "what changed"? It could be as simple as hitting some threshold as the Optane is filled. Very tough to say. All my friends with gigabyte motherboards have moved to Asus products.  Which cpu do you have?

 

Nevermind, I see a 6700k in your signature. I recently bought a slightly damaged Asus rog strix z270g motherboard on ebay for use with my 6700k with two direct to cpu slots. Highly recommended if you can find one.

[lmitche]

This is interesting:

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12828/intel-launches-optane-dimms-up-to-512gb-apache-pass-is-here

 

I have no idea what it may do to SQ.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

7 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

How does this Optane differ from an M2 SSD?  Is it just a brand name of the same thing?

Optane is way faster than typical SSD memory for the kind of short bursty traffic generated by Windows. This speed translates into less contention as periods of overlapped resource demand are reduced.

[lmitche]

6 hours ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

I am not sure which thread to ask this question.

 

Larry posted this comment in, "A Crowd Funded Motherboard for Audiophile Part 2 thread".

 

From @lmitche ,

 

"Yes, lots of 6 core 12 thread 45 watt processors. Nothing interesting in the PCie lane count front.  Looks like AMD owns that space.

 

I'm looking forward to the AMD 2700 65 watt processor and x470 motherboard announcements in a couple weeks. With 8 cores and 24 pcie lanes, I expect to head that way. A mini-itx is feasible with m.2 and pcie 16 slots both direct to cpu".

 

Larry, can you give your thoughts on the AMD CPU and x470 mobo in reference to the loss of Optane SSD for boot drive?

 

 

 

I think you are asking two questions.  First off the AMD Ryzen 7 2700 processor announcement was a little disappointing. I'd hoped for a significantly faster multicore clock speed.  That didn't happen so I doubt the 2700 has the juice to play Hqplayer with polysinc-xtr non-2s.

 

Secondly the Optane runs as an SSD just fine on Intel motherboards and I expect the same of the AMD motherboards. We won't know for sure until someone verifies this capability.

 

I hope this is clear.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

8 hours ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

Yes, that clears a small hurdle to figuring out my parts list. 

 

I was pretty set on Intel before I saw that other post relating to the AMD and x470 mobos.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

Christopher

 

 

If I were doing a new build today, I'd go for an Asus Rog strix z370-g board and an Intel i5-8400. In the states the combo can be had for $350 at microcenter. This should give you enough juice to do Hqplayer upsampling to dsd512 with polysinc-xtr-2. Two direct to cpu pcie slots allow Optane and USB cards without the PCH. It's an inexpensive solution as well.

 

This way when low tdp mainstream processors that are polysinc-xtr capable arrive you haven't wasted too much cash. Plus you may get lucky see that the motherboard can be re-used with a more powerful processor.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

Larry the card you suggested, a Asus Rog strix z370-G is the micro ATX version of the card I was considering, an Asus Rog Strix Z370-E.

 

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-E-GAMING/

 

I am building the server to be used as HTPC so 4K video is going to be needed.  I will be using it for Roon Core and sending audio out on my home network and USB audio.  So I want as clean a signal as I can get given that limitation of a audio/video build. 

 

I am not upsampling to anything above DSD256 for the foreseeable future.  I think I will probably go with the Intel 8th Gen Core i7-8700, 6-Core 3.2 GHz, 65watt. 

 

I am getting tired of waiting for the next release of cpu and mobo technology....even though the Z390 boards looking interesting.

 

I just need to pull the trigger and get this built.

 

 

I would like to hear about this as well.

 

 

 

 

For a music server, our goal is to avoid use of PCH, so I doubt the difference between the 370 or 390 matters very much. Of course the i7-8700 will work perfectly and the Asus z370-e has the direct to cpu PCie slots you need. Have fun with that build!

[lmitche]

4 minutes ago, rickca said:

I  don't find anything exciting about 2nd gen Ryzen/X470 or Intel Z390 that's relevant to building a music server.

I agree. A 92 watt  Intel 8 core processor at 5 GHz with a big cache would be relevant.

[lmitche]

8 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

My findings were the same.  Using the same server, just between Optane and Intel SATA II with SOtM filter.  SATA II slightly smoother, less edgy or more analog.  Very close though and I could live with either.

I am curious. How are you using these storage devices? Have you tried an externally powered multiple nvme pcie card?

 

Over here using a 32 gb Optane for rambooting AL into memory and for a Roon database means very little activity. There doesn't seem to be any noise when idle, so it's hard to justify investing more.

[lmitche]

40 minutes ago, Quadman said:

 

Larry I am using as OS drives only.  I have not tried the nvme PCIe card as I have a big GPU card sitting there for cuda offload.  Everything I play I upsample to DSD512 and lately have been digging the Closed Form 16M HQP filter which most CPU's will not run without a GPU capable of Cuda offload.

 

As a side note (and off topic) I recently had in my possession a Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series 2 MQA, Robert Harley calls it the best digital he has heard.  I was selling this unit for a friend and of course I had to listen to it PCM at its best and MQA decoding vs. my beloved DSD512.  I also had the Berkeley Alpha USB converter so the PC was completely isolated from the DAC (pc server, USB to Berkeley USB, AES digital to Berkeley Dac).  To my ears there was no comparison, the DSD512 setup just trounced the PCM/MQA of the berkeley dac.  DSD512 is alive I am at the recording there is no stereo in the room just sound, The berkeley, tho very good, made me feel like I was listening to a very good stereo, the audio cliche check list would be there with the berkeley, but the feeling, the involvement with the music was not the same.  My T+A at 512 gives me goosebumps every time I listen to it.  Hence from this experience I decided to stay the high rate upsampling path rather than the low powered Nuc route.

Hi John,

 

Thanks for your clarification on your Optane use. Are you using a single box solution for your DSD512 upsampling? I've got my Optane in the big x16 PCIE direct to cpu slot you use for your graphics card. That is likely to make a difference in SQ as well. It is tempting to move to a xeon board with more direct PCIE slots.

 

Great to learn you are still enjoying your T+A dac and DSD512 upsampling. Your experience with the expensive Berkeley DAC is interesting.  Many thanks for sharing. I remember a great weekend in the spring of 2016 at my house of listening to the T+A dac and DSD512 upsampling with several CAers. I am not surprised that solution has improved over time.

 

Yes, the NUC/AL combination has moved things here in the opposite direction, all bit perfect and as low power as possible. A quad core I7, 8gb of ram, wifi connected NUC endpoint running from a 12 volt lps1.2 sips power. With AL/Roonserver running on my old custom, linear powered i7-6700k DSD512 upsampling machine music sounds spine tingling here as well.

 

As always, there is more then one way to skin the cat.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

Wasn't sure if you were responding to me or Quadman.

No worries Johnseye, thanks for your answer as well.

 

So when you add new music, you stop ramboot and do the music update with the stick inserted, or do you let Roon find and index new tracks on the fly into ram?

 

I've never tried booting my server from anything but an Optane card. Maybe I'll have a go at that.

 

Most of my recent hardware and software tweaks have been on the server side and they have been significant.

[lmitche]

27 minutes ago, rando said:

 

A look at the PCIe revision for 4.0 and 5.0 might be useful before making that decision.  For SQ it may be an interesting decision.  AMD is said to be bringing 4.0 to market soon.  5.0 looks to be the more immediate successor in the Xeon and "i" boards.  Intel may or may not issue another rash of Optane SSD in this period.  

There was a recent release of Optane SSDs just in January. The new version of the 32 gb Optane model is a bit faster and uses 40% less current when active compared to the older model.

[lmitche]

13 minutes ago, rickca said:

How do you tell the new 32GB version from the old one?  The only new Optanes I know about are the 58GB and 118GB (800P series)

Here is my source.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13825/new-generation-of-optane-m2-ssds-coming-soon

I also read it was faster with an x4 vs. x2 interface. It is also the third generation, as I forgot about the m10 edition.

[lmitche]

On 3/18/2019 at 12:56 PM, Johnseye said:

I'd be curious to know your recent hardware and software tweaks on the server side, if you're willing to share

There is nothing new here that hasn't been shared by myself or others in the past.

[lmitche]

What's really going on with Optane?

 

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4253082-micron-intel-fishy

[lmitche]

Seems like Optane boot has become a standard. Are people using Optane on servers or servers and endpoints? 

[lmitche]

7 hours ago, Quadman said:

On a couple of PC's I've built.  I've used it on the server, but my personal machine I still use the old sata 2 intel X25E SSD, I think it sounds a bit more analogish and more whole.  Optane sounds pretty good and would be my second choice, but for now my heart lies with sata 2.

 

Funny, I have an old Intel x25e SSD on my desktop machine as well.

21 hours ago, davide256 said:

Server, but only because its faster boot than USB stick in booting to RAM.

 

Are you using Roon? If so, where do you keep your Roon database?

[lmitche]

11 hours ago, davide256 said:

With the latest Euphony RAM image, I can load Roon or Euphony to RAM. But the difference has become so great  in favor of Euphony Stylus,

I rarely use Roon anymore

Over here, I cannot get Euphony SQ to match AL/Roon. Of course my AL is heavily tuned. The same can't be done with Euphony as it doesn't allow root access.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, dminches said:

I am building a server based on a Supermicro mobo.  If the Intel Optane is not compatible with the mobo (I am still waiting on verification) what is my next best choice?  This would only be for the OS and Roon Server to 32 GB is more than enough space.

 

You can always buy a m.2 ngff pcie card and use that. We are just using optane as a ssd.

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, dminches said:

 

I assume you mean m.2 ngff PCIE card.

 

I guess these cards come with drivers which could circumvent any potential incompatibility?

 

Just what I said . . .

 

No drivers necessary. 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, brother love said:

I picked-up a 32gb M.2 2280 Optane ssd off fleabay & want to use it with Ubuntu 20.04 OS installed in a i7-6700k music server. Current HDD has dual boot Win10 Pro & Ubuntu 20.04 with music files on separate partition.

 

Anything special that I need to do beyond just installing OS w/ Ubuntu Live USB stick & prioritizing mobo bios to boot Optane ssd?

Nope, just copy the Ubuntu image on to the Optane and point the bios to the image for boot.

 

If you are doing ram boot there is potentially more to do depending on your player software choice.

[lmitche]

4 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thanks, Stefano. I understood that to be the case for drive caching and SATA drive acceleration, as that usage requires Windows drivers and the Intel Rapid Storage Technology software, but that isn’t my intended use.  
 

I have been told that it is possible to flash Optane SSD’s (like the 800p) with any OS.  What I was trying to figure out is whether I could get to the same place with the M10, which is not marketed as an SSD but might be usable as one.

 

This Intel web publication says that Linux can sometimes be installed on an 800p: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000026415/memory-and-storage/client-ssds.html

 

If I am wrong about that, I can live in peace with my existing NVMe SSD.  😁

MIke,

 

Yes, the Optane runs perfectly as a boot drive with Linux just like any SSD.

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

 Is it just the difference in usable capacity and the inability of the SSD-specific cards to cache and accelerate SATA cards?

 My music is stored on another SSD, so there has never been a need to use the Optane caching capability. I expect the only difference is size.