ISO REGEN Listening Impressions (kicked off with some measurements)

[Superdad]

19 minutes ago, bds3151 said:

Anyway, mine is now working fine and sounding great for several days now.

 

Happy to hear that!

 

19 minutes ago, bds3151 said:

Thanks again for a great product.

 

You are most welcome--and thank you. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, bds3151 said:

After two days of operating fine, the sound dropouts have returned.

 

This should not be happening.  Please contact me regarding an exchange.  

We really would prefer not to turn this thread into an individual support correspondence location.

Thanks.

—Alex C.

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, kissov said:

Alex, I want an ISO Regen, can I Y out of my LPS 1 to power the ISO Regen and a microRendu? or am I better off using the power supply that comes with the ISO?  Thanks.

 

You definitely can use a DC 'Y' cable to power both the microRendu and ISO REGEN with a single UltraCap LPS-1/LPS-1.2.   Please set to 7V.

[Superdad]

On 6/9/2018 at 1:21 PM, Bdht said:

Id like to add my experience with the regens, sorry for the diatribe but wth Im pretty sure im an outlier in the userbase.

Tldr: iso regen and lps1.2 make virtual headphone audio from a pc amazing.

 Full disclosure I listen almost exclusively to death metal(i know...) and listening at adequate volume would piss alot of people off, as well as not having the space for properly placed speakers, but i love full range 2 channel stereo systems and the feeling of being pummeled by sound, ditto with movies, so i set out to make a virtual room. 

Using a headphone system(older audio gd nfb7, nfb1amp, audeze el8) with this program http://fongaudio.com and a shaker system did the trick, great surround for movies, suprisingly realistic impact from the shakers, and a proper wide front soundstage, but this makes using pc usb mandatory, and more reverberant rooms didnt have the clarity I wanted.

 

Thanks for your post!  While indeed you system and musical tastes are likely quite different from the typical audiophile, I think you would be surprised at just how widely the musical proclivities of CA members run.  Over in a thread on world-musics, someone posted this gem of Canadian sinus singing (at least that's what we called it) :

 

But seriously, we are very happy to know that you are enjoying the ISO REGEN/UltraCap LPS-1.2 in your unique music system!

Cheers,

--Alex C.

 

 

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, bmnathe said:

With my iso regen in the chain, I lose USB connection to my DAC after some time.  I remedy this simply by unplugging/replugging the iso regen.

My chain is: MBP > IR > SU-1 > Holo Spring > amp

 

Both your Mac laptop and the (bus-powered and post-XMOS digitally isolated) USB input of the SU-1 lack much of a earth ground reference.  The disconnects are due to static build-up on the ISO REGEN's Silanna galvanic isolation chip.  Please read this post and experiment from there:

 

 

[Superdad]

32 minutes ago, Cornan said:

I just could’nt take it anymore. I removed the copper tape from the dual Supra DAC cables.

 

Wrong thread Cornan!  I moved your post over to where it belongs:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/42959-iso-regen-performance-improvement-cheap/?do=findComment&comment=850914

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, johndoe21ro said:

Is there a PS Audio Directstream and ISORegen user around here?

 

There are a whole lot of PSA DS owners using the ISO REGEN--including Bascom King last I checked.  But I don't know if any of them are hanging about here right now.  Maybe you'll get lucky and one of them will see this and pipe up. 

[Superdad]

31 minutes ago, jtwrace said:

If you head over to the PSA Forum you will read Paul's and others experience with the DS.  As a DS owner, it's not needed.  

 

I think you are a bit of an outlier Jason. 

Yes, definitely check out the PSA forum.  However, for some reason virtually all the REGEN-related posts there are with regards to the original USB REGEN—which Paul McGowan himself endorsed in his blog in 2016. Seems that only a couple of active PSA forum members have upgraded to the ISO REGEN, yet in fact there are a great many DS users enjoying the combo.

 

Our products are sold with a 30-day, money-back guarantee (with no restock fee), so there is no risk in trying it. 

[Superdad]

14 minutes ago, jtwrace said:

Paul & Ted must have done some objective testing then as his recent comments are against them.

 

No, I think they must have based their comments on theory and not actual testing since, AFAIK neither of them has ever tried the ISO REGEN.

I can’t seem to find any recent comments from either of them with regards the REGEN.  How about you sent me some links in a PM?

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, coeuslee said:

So gents, first off, I apologise if this issue has been discussed. This thread is now 38 pages and I have trouble sifting through to get the answers.

 

Basically, I received my ISO Regen a couple months back. Plugged it in, not realising the GI was in the disable position. Been using it lightly since I was just also assigned on a major project at work. At that time, I noted that the USB connection will disconnect after an  hour or so of playing music and sometime, not connecting at all.

 

I had not time to investigate until last week. First I took the LPS1.2 out of the equation and power direct via JS2. Same thing, disconnected after an hour. Then I realised the GI was switched off. Switching it on, I notice clicks and pops during passage of the music.

 

I could be wrong, but I doubt it is a grounding issue. My equipment as below :

 

Preamp : Accupahse C2850

DAC : DC37

Server : DIY server powered by JS2

All power cords are Ansuz US plugs connected to Accuphase power regenerator

Power amp : Accuphase A45

Power regenerator and power amp connected to Ansuz powerboard.

 

Any help will be much appreciated as I am on the verge of giving up soon.

 

Hi:

A couple of thoughts and questions for you, but we can assist you better if you contact us directly.  

 

You mention that your ISO REGEN had the switch set with galvanic isolation defeated (the up, "ON" position).  The way you said it implied that it came to you that way.  But since we NEVER ship them with the switch up--it is always down with GI enabled--I made me wonder if your ISO REGEN is a second-hand unit, which means it is possible that it is very early one.  Would be good to know that.

 

What USB cable are you using between your music server and the ISO REGEN?  The Silanna galvanic isolator chip at the input of the ISO REGEN is not very tolerant of out-of-spec USB cables on its input side (the ISO REGEN output can drive any cable), and a fair number of "audiophile" USB cables fall into that category.  You can test that by trying the 6-inch generic cable we ship with the ISO REGEN or some other generic USB printer cable--from the computer to the ISO REGEN.

 

The JS-2 "floats" its DC outputs (no connection to mains ground except for chassis and transformer for safety), so with it powering your DIY server your source does not have much in the way of true ground connection (except perhaps though other devices you have hooked to the server).  In some cases the ISO REGEN really prefers to have the USB input side well grounded (again the not-effect Silanna isolator chip), so you might want to read this post:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31877-iso-regen-listening-impressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/?page=24&tab=comments#comment-714912

 

Based on what you reported, I would certainly start with changing the USB cable between your server and the ISO REGEN.

 

Have a great weekend,

--Alex C.

 

P.S.  My apologies.  I just noticed that one of the e-mails awaiting my reply was from you from yesterday.  We can pick up the troubleshooting off-line there.  

[Superdad]

10 minutes ago, coeuslee said:

First of all, I must admit a couple of elementary mistakes here.... embarassing facts actually....

 

As Alex pointed out, the unit did come with the GI switched at down on at "I" position. I had assumed the "on" position means GI is on.

 

Secondly, while fiddling yesterday, I noticed that the "red light" at the back was not lighted when I lose connection, which suggested to me there is some power issue. I suspect that the Oyaide plugs does not connect well on the Regen power input due to the weight of the plug (by the way, should it be a 2.1mm or 2.5mm input plug?). I have since added extra Silicon rings to support the connection. So far no drop outs this morning (fingers crossed).

 

Wow, thanks for your report about it.  Very interesting.  The DC jack of the ISO REGEN (and the UltraCap LPS-1.2) is 5.5mm x 2.1mm.

 

10 minutes ago, coeuslee said:

Also to clarify, the ticks happened when the GI switched off.

 

Well that's slightly odd, yet it clearly indicates that the GI is helpful and that the ticks are not due to the ISO REGEN or some grounding issue.

 

10 minutes ago, coeuslee said:

With the GI on, music flows beautiful. I understand that my DAC has GI on the USB input side, but even this, I found some improvement with the Regen. Volume seemed abit attenuated but I am also hearing better separation and imaging.

 

Nice to hear--and not surprising.   Enjoy!

 

10 minutes ago, coeuslee said:

Once again, apologies for raising the alarm bell and for the embarrassing nature of the user error. Really appreciate this community support.

 

Of course!!

 

10 minutes ago, coeuslee said:

PS : I use Acoustic Revive USB cable.

 

I have heard very nice things about that cable.

Best,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

5 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

Alex... don't remember what colour ISO Regen's LED is supposed to be when working fine: red?

 

Hi Paulo:

Yes, the ISO REGEN's LED is always red.  Unlike with the UltraCap power supplies, the LED on our REGENs does not change color.

USB REGEN LED is amber/orange, ISO REGEN is red.  Don't ask why we did it this way.  I know it is confusing for people who have an UltraCap supply as for those red is the "bad", no output color. 

[Superdad]

2 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

Depends on what you mean by "isolation".  The Ethernet connection...

 

Great answer John, but I think Sean's question was with regards to the red switch on the ISO REGEN--as this is the ISO REGEN thread.

Guess someone has EtherREGEN on the brain 24/7, eh? (That's a good thing!) 

 

Maybe you can answer the same question with regards the Silanna isolator at the input of the ISO REGEN and what effect defeating the ground plane isolation with the switch has on the D+/D- lines going through it.

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, Chiler54 said:

Are there any Chord Dac owners who use an Iso Regen?
What are the experiences?

 

Sure, from elsewhere in this very thread:

 

With Chord TT:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31877-iso-regen-listening-impressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/?do=findComment&comment=738270

 

With DAVE:

(There are actually quite a few Dave owners using ISO REGEN.  I know there are a bunch of Qutest users too, but I'm not seeing posts in this thread.  Have to search our e-mail testimonial box.)

 

 

 

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, ingemar said:

So, can i use an adaptor like this and feed it with the 5 volts that is needed from my hdplex?And where can i find an adaptor like the image?

 

Here are a couple of choices for getting the 20mA of 5VBUS power to the ISO REGEN's input (just for the upstream side of its galvanic isolator chip--and even at this non-critical, "dirty-side" spot we dedicate an ultra-low-noise LT3042 regulator to change 5VBUS into 3.3V):

 

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/various-adapters/usb-b-adapter-cable-for-external-usb-a-power-supply-p-8389.html

 

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/various-adapters/usb-b-adapter-cable-for-55-21mm-female-power-supply-p-8332.html

 

Your choice of the above depends upon if you want to use a spare USB port or a spare power supply port.

Just keep in mind that if you use a spare PS rail that has -VE output "ground" common with the PS rail you input to the downstream side of the ISO REGEN (its DC jack--which powers the 5 other regulators on the clean side--for the hub chip, clock, other side of isolator, and new 5VBUS output), then you will defeat the galvanic isolation.

[Superdad]

17 minutes ago, Bdht said:

Something like the ifi idefender would work.

 

9 minutes ago, ingemar said:

Ok,but is it as good as the iso?had a lock at the ifi thingy but it isn't what i need,but thanks anyway!

 

I think he was suggesting the iDefender for use as a VBUS injector at the ISO REGEN's input.  For other technical reasons I would advise against it--can't promise how the ISO REGEN would behave if the iDefender tries to carry out its primary "ground-lift" purpose.  The VBUS injector cables I recommended will be cheaper and more reliable for you in this application.

[Superdad]

2 minutes ago, ingemar said:

Thanks superdad,i'll use another psu for dc jack if that is possible or should i use both supplys from the hdplex?

 

Well as mentioned:

a) the quality of that 20mA of 5VBUS is not at all critical;

b) if the two outputs from the HDPEX that you use for the ISO REGEN (one at 5V, the other at 6-9V) share a common DC output "ground" then you are defeating the galvanic isolation feature of the ISO REGEN.  You can test by using a multimeter set to continuity "beep" mode and touching each probe to the -VE "ground" shells of the HDPLEX outputs you are considering using.  If the meter beeps then those PS outputs share a common ground and would NOT be ideal for your application.

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, ciccio1112 said:

Hello everyone, hi Superdad, I have a problem with L'iso regen and audiolinux. In practice, my dac is not detected with jlsound v3 con xmos . Sometimes randomly switching the dac off and on again and detaching the cable detects the dac. Everything works perfectly with win 10 and windows server 2016, tested both with a PC optimized with xeon that also with a nuc. What could it be? I've always known that the so regen is a transparent device to the operating system, but here it seems to be a problem with linux. Thanks. 

 

Hi Ciccio:

Sorry to hear you are having some difficulty with the ISO REGEN and one of your configurations.

I and many others do use the ISO REGEN with NUCs running Audiolinux, so we know it is compatible.

There is a good chance that your issue has not to do with Audiolinux, but rather to do with the grounding and the particular computer and power systems you are using the ISO REGEN with when the problem occurs.

 

So as first test, please try putting the red switch of the ISO REGEN in the up ('ON') position and testing again.  Also, some computer/OS/DAC combinations--most often with Linux--will be particular about power-on sequence when using the ISO REGEN.  ISO REGEN functions as a USB hub, and recognition of it--and the DAC's own confirmation of connection back to computer--is not always dynamic and hot-swappable. 

 

Please let us know your experience after you place the switch in the up position and reconnect/repower everything.  We can then go from there.

Thanks,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, tapatrick said:

Thats interesting @ciccio1112, I have a similar problem (Iso Regen and NUCs/AL), but it only started recently where my ISO regen will not allow connection to my DAC, (after running perfectly for a month or 2). Now, often when I switch on I have to mess with the IR until it shows up or just take it out of the chain.... anyone have any clues to what it might be - apart from the obvious , cables etc..

 

Hi Patrick:

Well I know you are always making small changes of some sort to you system (), so it is really hard to say what the cause of your issue might be.  Based on our experience (over 1,000 ISO REGENs in the field), it is unlikely that your ISO REGEN has itself changed in some way.  They usually work or they don't.  So it seems more likely that you are having a mechanical contact or cable issue.  But if you suspect your ISO REGEN is failing then do contact me directly to discuss some tests and possible exchange.

Thanks,

--Alex

[Superdad]

25 minutes ago, ThenewGearPPK said:

So the red switch has to be flipped up to the ON position to get the isolation? A little bit confused, because if you flip the switch down, it will be near the word "ISO".

 

For the ISO REGEN's red switch, the up ('ON') position defeats the galvanic isolation, while the down ('1') position has the isolation in effect.  

Why is it this (somewhat confusing) way?  Because the only single-position vertical mount DIP switch available is labeled that way.  For (single-pole) switches, ON is always with the two contacts closed (connected), and all we are doing to defeat the isolation is putting the switch across the "moat" of the separated ground planes--and turning the switch "ON" joins the two domains, thereby defeating the isolation.

 

Quote

The VBUS also has to be on the "On" position as well to work?  Or would there be a sonic benefit to have it on the "off" position. BTW how would you switch it, the switch doesn't seem to be able to be toggled at all?

 

The VBUS switch on the USPCB should stay in the ON position--the way it arrives. (that is the downward position of the tiny white switch—where it then forms a line with the two white painted dots on either side).  

Look closely and you will see that the switch can be toggled.  The tip of a pen or a pin can be used to move the center white bat of the switch.

 

It is a bit of a joke—and really only useful for use in determining if your DAC needs VBUS.  If it does, then you leave the switch on; If it does not use VBUS then well, what’s the point of tuning it off?  It is not like the 5V goes anywhere.  You are not even keeping it off a long USB cable (some people like that to reduce capacitive coupling to the data lines). 

Useful as horns on a bull (at least for us)!

[Superdad]

36 minutes ago, Ryelands said:

By setting the switch to OFF, you reduce the chance of a potentially interesting error.

 

Well there you go! A use for the VBUS switch of our USPCB A>B Adatper besides just diagnostic.  

 

And nice to see you posting again here at AS/CA Ryelands.

--Alex C.

 

P.S.  "Potentially interesting error."   That's great; I do like PIE! 

[Superdad]

9 hours ago, Ryelands said:

I forget from whom I pinched the toggle-switch idea but seem to recall getting the low-value resistor idea from an old post by JS.

 

You probably read it either in an original USB REGEN thread or in this blog post of mine from nearly 4 years ago:

https://uptoneaudio.com/blogs/news/20068483-usb-regen-updated-amazing-bass-all-unshipped-orders-will-be-the-latest

Some few cents worth of resistors on the input ground lines was the change we made after the first 100 USB REGENs were sold (and we changed the LED from green to amber to signify).  All 100 of the first buyers received the upgrade, and we went on to see close to 4,000 USB REGENs after that.

 

The more sophisticated ISO REGEN design does not require such resistors.

 

9 hours ago, Ryelands said:

However, I've just measured my USPCB and found it has no resistance in the Gnd line. Am I missing something?

 

The 4-layer, impedance-controlled circuit board known as the USPCB A>B Adapter is meant as a pure cable substitute. Its primary application is between a REGEN and a DAC, though people freely purchase and use them in other spots.  

It would be problematic for us and our clients if we put ground line resistors on the USPCB Adapters as performance and connectivity issues could then arise.

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

How much current does the ISO Regen draw?

 

Through its DC jack—to power the five voltage regulators and devices on its downstream side—the ISO REGEN draws 240mA. Add to that whatever 5VBUS current is drawn by through its USB output jack by whatever DAC or DDC you have attached to the ISO REGEN.

 

Additionally, the ISO REGEN’s USB input itself draws 20mA of 5VBUS current from whatever computer source/host is feeding it.  This is used to power (another LT3042 set to 3.3V) the upstream side of the Silanna high-speed galvanic isolator chip at the input of the ISO REGEN.

[Superdad]

8 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

240mA vs the 1.1A capacity of the LPS-1.2. Could one LPS-1.2 be used to power an ISO Regen and an EtherRegen? Would it create a ground loop?

 

No, you can not use a single UltraCap LPS-1.2 to power both an ISO REGEN and an EtherREGEN.  That is because the 12V is too high a voltage for the ISO REGEN, and while the EtherREGEN can run from 7V it draws over 1.3A at that.

Last night's test of the latest EtherREGEN pre-production boards have it drawing just 0.7A at 12V, so powering from an UltraCap LPS-1.2 set to 12V is assured. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, LewinskiH01 said:

To finalize re power: since it runs on 5V and draws 240mA, how's the sound if a USB battery, say a 13000mA Anker, is used? Would last about 50 hours without recharging.

ISO REGEN should be powered with at least 6V.  Otherwise the 1A voltage regulator on the board--which is dedicated to providing 5VBUS output to DACs that need it--will not have enough drop to regulate to 5V.  If your DAC does not use ANY 5VBUS power, then you can run the ISO REGEN from 5V (or even 4V) as all the rest of the (four LT3042) regulators are set to just 3.3V.

 

People have used USB battery packs with ISO REGEN.  Just be aware that those are not lot noise power supplies as they use DC-DC switching regulators and do not follow them with any linear regs.  

 

1 hour ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Moving to another topic: I convolve music to 6-channel stereo, which is sent from the PC to the DAC through USB. I imagine the ISO Regen is OK with that, but would like to confirm.

Sure, that's fine.  Anything you can pass via high-speed (480mbps) USB 2.0 will go through an ISO REGEN.  ISO REGEN knows nothing of audio channels, sample rates, etc.  It can just as well be printer data!   But the improved USB signal integrity, impedance match, and clocking are only of benefit to the USB PHY/processor of a DAC/DDC decoding audio.  It reduces ground-plane noise and packet-data noise inside the DAC, and the galvanic isolation blocks leakage currents from upstream.

 

1 hour ago, LewinskiH01 said:

BTW, congrats on the progress with EtherRegen!

Thanks!