Proper Grounding a system

[Cornan]

4 hours ago, michaelD said:

I've been a big fan of proper grounding of a system since actually doing it a few years ago.  My main power strip is a Nordost QB8 which has a very convenient ground lug.  I have attached to it a separate earth ground (different from my electrical box house ground) and to a Entreq Sliver Tellus using their Apollo wire.  This has been my setup for about 3 years now.  I was very please with the darkness of my background not only with nothing playing but within tracks/notes the silence where it was supposed to be was great. There are also improvements in the bass as well.   I never went the whole way with the Entreq box to ground other components of my system not sure why just never did.  Fast forward today I now have two demo Silver Tellus minimus each connected to my Bricasti M28 amps using Silver Eartha cables (connected is to the negative speaker terminal).  In-addition to my Silver Tellus I connected to a RCA input to both my Bricasti M1 DAC and Aurender N10 Atlantis using Apollo Eartha cables.   I just got it hooked up last night and for those that don't know it takes the Entreq products about a day to reach full potential.  So Tonight I plan on doing some listening to see if there are even greater improvements.

 

Also Nordost is coming out with a grounding box called QKore.  I should have a demo box here later next week as I want to compare.  They have some write up on how its constructed on their web site but its considerably smaller and lighter then the Entreq solution.  However I think the $$'s to spend may be similar.  From what I've read the Nordost solution is active right away so that will be helpful doing a compare. Both the Entreq and Nordost solutions are passive solutions.

 

I'm sure the cable crowd that thinks cables don't make a difference will jump all over this but infact proper grounding does indeed improve the listening experience. More on this later.

 

I am also a big fan of external grounding and will surely follow your impressions with great interest! ?

If you have a metal case network switch in your audio chain I would recommend you to try grounding it...if you have'nt done it already.

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, michaelD said:

Yes I will post info as I have time and I'm particularly interested in the compare.  As I want to do something but don't know which is the best at least for my system and situation.  

 

I do have a metal network switch I'm curious how you grounded it and why?  What effect did that have?

 

I have two setups with grounded network switches. One with an AQVOX switch-8 and one with a D-Link DSG105 switch. Both have a GND screws in the back of the unit where I connect the external grounding to. I have tried almost any external grounding possible during the years, and grounding the network switch is IMO the optimal spot, followed by the router. As always with external grounding it makes everything sound natural and relaxed in a way that few other tweaks do.

 

Here is a picture of my latest grounding tweak with my AQVOX switch-8 where the red silver wire goes to my Entreq Minimus. ?

 

[Cornan]

One important notice with external grounding is that the effect is reduced by isolating ICs and floating the AC/DC paths. I have actually used my Entreq Minimus as a kind of "noise sniffer" to find out where I'll need to isolate or float the ground. However, on network switches the improvements are still present with floating grounds and isolated ICs. 

[Cornan]

26 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

re: separate earth ground -- different from my electrical box house ground

 

I always thought failure to bring all grounds to the same... ah ground.. was a risk for creating a ground loop(??)

 

If you use a grounding box with one connector (ex. Entreq Minimus) for two devices you risk creating a ground loop. That is why it is not recommended by the manufacturer. However, if you use a grounding box with several connectors (ex. Entreq Tellus) you are ok since it is in fact several isolated "boxes" in one (if you connect only one device to each connector). A grounding box should also separate analogue grounds and digital grounds since they tend to interfear with each other.

At best a grounding box should act as a low impedance end point (ie. with lower impedance than what can be found anywhere in your audio system)

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, Speedskater said:

If they are disconnecting the Safety Ground/Protective Earth connection in the main breaker box and instead making a separate connection to Mother Earth, then it's dangerous in two ways.

 

1] In the event of a Ground Fault (short circuit) the circuit breaker will not trip in a timely manor and may not trip at all.

 

2] In the event of a nearby lightning strike (1 km/ ½ mile) huge voltages may develop  between the two ground rod systems.

 

Safety rules require that all of a building electrical power be connected to the same grounding system. Different areas have different rules about these grounding systems.

 

 

Sorry, but your post shows just how much you know about grounding boxes. Grounding boxes have absolutely nothing to do about safety ground. No one is going to rip out their safety ground or ground rod and replace it with a grounding box. It is not their purpose. Grounding on equipment is just a 0v reference point. Think about batteries and think about airplaines. They work just fine without safety ground. The ground reference point is just the difference between + and -. Grounding boxes are effective to reduce shield interfearences, static electricity, high frequency noises, leakage loops, ground loops etc in cables, chassis, equipment ground planes, AC mains etc.

[Cornan]

Here is a review with some good info for those who want to learn! ?

 

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/entreq.htm

 

Here is some info about ground reference

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/104222/where-is-the-ground-in-a-simple-electronic-circuit

 

[Cornan]

3 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Sorry, but I just can't agree that the 'boxes' you are talking about, have anything at all to do with 'grounding'. If I have it correct, they only have one wire connected to them, therefore they are Not part of any circuit I understand. I have yet to see any rationale for what they are supposed to do. And, if they somehow encourage anyone to substitute one of these mystery boxes for a proper wire to a real earth ground connection, they could be dangerous.

 

So, until I see some reasonable explanation for what possible effect they may have (other then depleting your wallet) I will continue to classify them as improbable 'magic'.

 

The best way to know if they improve things or not is to try it out. Here is one reasonable priced one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222478045137 for that adventure! ?

[Cornan]

19 minutes ago, Daudio said:

I don't have the enthusiasm, money, or suggestibility to bother with these things.

Then grounding boxes is clearly nothing for you! ?

 

19 minutes ago, Daudio said:

Perhaps we could call them 'Dirt Boxes' , rather then falsely labeling them as having anything to do with circuit grounding ?

It would be perfectly fine with me, since it is more or less what they do. Collect dirt from grounding paths. Not a very sellable name for it though! ? (Slogan: It is a dirty job, but someone got to do it)

[Cornan]

26 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Fair enough. But since this is a thread on Grounding, I'm still interested in any theoretical or technical info, pro or con, on these... 'products'.

 

It would be great if John Swenson would chime in here !

 

 

p.s.  My service box has two good earth connections, installed by Detroit Edison professionals.

 

I am afraid that grounding boxes is something you'll have to try to appreciate what they'll do for sq. The more you isolate the paths (ICs, AC, DC & ground) the less important they'll get. However, if you for example are using shielded cables somewhere us your setup you will most likely gain using a grounding box. I have read a LOT about grounding boxes, quartz stones, tourmaline stones, piezo-electricity, pyro-electricity, negative ions, impedance, battery grounding etc etc during the years and still have'nt seen any technical info or hard facts regarding the grounding boxes. They are all theories, but theories that work. Grounding boxes is not something new. They have been around for ages in Japan (apparently to cure bad electrical mains wiring). It is just the last 8-10 years they have found a place in audio equipments. Whatever I will say to you it is just theories based on theories, but I know they work wonders in any setup as long as you have enough enthusiasm to experiment with them. I started my journey by building them myself, but my efforts (which where promising at the time) was never close to the real deal.

 

BTW. Here is a good starting point if you like DIY 

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/12/entreq-tellus-passive-ground-system.html

 

[Cornan]

6 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Copper rods, brass and aluminium (?) strips, filled with what looks to me to be activated charcoal, in a plywood box. OK, so what ? And all for only $2000 

 

Sorry but I can't accept your/their listening impressions, because I can't trace them to ears I know and respect. It's not that I dismiss them, just can't verify them to a meaningful chain of evidence for me.

 

 

Fair enough, but I know what you are missing out! ?

BTW. There is cheaper options out there and buy 5kg tourmaline sand, pure copper, pure silver, a good plug and a nice box for DIY attempts ain't cheap either! ?

[Cornan]

14 minutes ago, Daudio said:

But I can't in clear concious call it 'Grounding'.

 

Well, gounding is a confusing and missused term in general. What we normally talk about in audio systems is a reference point. These reference paths are not pure by any means. They carry a lot of noises (another missused term) and it is these noises that are drained away to the grounding boxes. The grounding boxes are usually called ground enhancers, ground purifiers etc. Grounding boxes is just a simplified name for them, just like hum stoppers, ground blockers etc are called DC blockers as well.

[Cornan]

6 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Yet in the first post:

 My main power strip is a Nordost QB8 which has a very convenient ground lug.  I have attached to it a separate earth ground (different from my electrical box house ground) .

I read that as a  separate connection to Mother Earth not to a grounding box.

 

I beleive it means the QB8 is connected to a dedicated circuit and the grounding box is connected to the GND screw on the QB8. 

 

With that said I will leave you guys alone and come back when something interesting regarding grounding boxes or anything thread related turns up! ?

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, marce said:

How is the noise differentiated from the signal...

Noise cannot just be drained away.

 

"Noise" in ground are positive charged. Tourmaline stones are negative charged. Do the math!

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, jabbr said:

The phrase "'Noise' in ground are positive charged." does not itself make sense according to the common definitions of "noise" "ground" and "charge". Are you using a different language? If so, can you try and translate that to the English definitions we are using, along with the common Physics definitions we are using?

 

As I posted earlier "Noises" are a very missused term, by me as well in lack of better words. What I am referring to is EMI/RFI & AC/DC currents and voltages in shieldings, chassis and equipments ground planes which AFAIK the grounding boxes are suppose to deal with.

 

Grounding boxes is actually a very interesting subject. Partly because it is mysterious but mostly because it really works IRL. It is really sad that people try to make an interesting thread like this into a mine field instead of trying to help or enlight people with knowledge, real enthusiasm and true interest. I do not count you in here jabbr. I know that you know your things. It reminds me of the countless USB or Ethernet discussions that I hoped was history by now. Well, I was wrong. They just ended up here.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, marce said:

All I have done is post links and references to some of the many people who research this subject (EMC/signal integrity), the likes of Henry Ott, his book Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering is one of the go-to references for this sort of thing.

 

No, it is not all you have done!

 

Quote

Basically what you have is a wire poked in a box of muck, crystals, BS; whatever you want to put in the box will have exactly the same effect, which is at worst case the wire acting as an antenna and picking up noise, at best nothing. Adding one of these boxes goes against all EMC guidelines and is just someone making money out of the misplaced belief that the Ground, earth etc is a big sink for noise etc.

 

Not very educational! 

 

1 hour ago, marce said:

Again this link, shows the basics, its not mysterious at all, its been well studied since Maxwell, not5 long after Heaviside created the theory's that are the basic for high speed design today (The telegrapher's equations). 

http://sites.ieee.org/ctx-emcs/files/2010/09/Archambeault-Ground-Myth.pdf

 

Good link, but it tells us nothing about what this thread is all about ie. grounding boxes/ground purifiers/ground enhancers/dirt boxes/shit boxes or whatever you like to call them. If they are not so mysterious to you I suggest you start explaining how you think they work or give us real life imprerssions about them instead of just posting pointless assumptions and links about Maxwell & Co which does´nt answer any questions about the actual boxes.

[Cornan]

Here is the founder of Entreq´s own words about their products. If you read it carefully there is actually a lot of interesting information embedded. You´ll just need to filter out the good stuff!

 

http://www.entreqasia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Entreq-History.pdf

[Cornan]

53 minutes ago, YashN said:

Found the thread and the way to find it definitely has changed with the new forum design (go to profile, click on rightmost 'Content' icon, then on the left bar go down to 'Topic'):

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/24275-ac-filtering-grounding-boxes-linear-psu-and-balanced-power/

 

 

 

Yeah, that was a great thread @YashN!

Well worth reading from start to finish! ? Nice to see you around btw. I almost started a thread "Where did YashN go?" ?

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I mentioned the same thing a while back. Now I'm wondering, can I tune into different radio stations with it? Would classical radio make my DAC sound better than, say, rock when injected into its ground plane? Does NPR produce better euphonic effect than sports radio? So many new things to try! 

 

 

Just to make you happy. Here is an Entreq product that is constructed as a antenna, but it should be connected to their grounding boxes.

 

http://www.kosmic.us/entreq-receivus.html

 

[Cornan]

@Daudio

The "mysterious" part of the grounding boxes is what makes them so interesting IMO. I know they work wonders on a "good" spots which requires a experiments in different places in the setup. It is NOT just a matter of plug it in anywhere and enjoy the music. On certain very isolated (ex. floating AC/DC, galvanicly isolated inputs & outputs) spots a grounding box can also make it sound worse. My Entreq Minimus have moved to new spots during my upgrades since it did'nt improve things anymore. It have ended up in the network switch right now where it still makes a great improvement, even though it is completely isolated. Do not ask me why!

 

The way I see it the grounding box is similar to a grounding rod, but with selected minerals and with a slightly different and less "heavy duty" purpose. 

 

 

[Cornan]

I have noticed a similarity between grounding boxes and USB GND lift. I always used unshielded twisted pair USB cables without 5v and lifted the GND. After getting all the AC/DC paths and ICs isolated (incl. router) the GND lift did'nt improve anymore. It was actually better with it. This is exactly what happens with a grounding box in the same circumstances. Grounding boxes have similar effects as a GND lift.

[Cornan]

7 minutes ago, michaelD said:

WOW - we have gone off course big time here.  My original post did not ask about theory of operation it was just  a way for others to express their results with grounding boxes.  In particular Entreq boxes and soon the new Nordost QKore that was just introduced at the Munich show.  Some may even have the Telos boxes that would be interesting also.  Somehow we got way off tangent with this subject.  I you have no experience with these or other grounding boxes please save your comments as they are not being helpful.  If you do by all means lets hear how you got started and why you continue to use them.  

 

Personally I've been listening to my demo more enhanced Entreq setup and I really like what it does.  The note attacks are much crisper, particularity noticeable in the bass and the overall the music is more engaging and real. The other aspect is the darkness of the background.  I already had that with my initial setup with the Silver Tellus connected to the QB8 ground lug and at least for me adding the demo boxes did not enhance that but it really wasy excellant already.

Admittedly there is time needed about a day needed initially and once you disconnect it takes some time for the effect to diminish.  So a good AB is not all that possible and my memory is not as good as it used to be.  However what I'm told about the QKore is that it is immediate on and off so a much better idea of how it effects the overall sound will be much more noticeable.  I have all the models coming so hopefully late next week or over Memorial day weekend I will be having some fun testing.     

 

Great to hear that you are enjoying your Entreq setup! ? This is what it is all about. Forget about theories & forget about other people's assumptions. It is your own ears that tells the truth in your setup. I have experiance of Entreqs products and know exactly what you mean. I know what a great improvement it can bring to the table despite what other people say or think about it.

I for one are looking forward to read about your impressions of all the other models! ?

[Cornan]

10 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Theory of operation is a big part of any product.

 

I like theory's, but they can never beats real life experiance! ?

[Cornan]

6 hours ago, marce said:

One final question...

What is the purpose of a ground rod?

The true answer is relevant and interesting.

 

http://www.spgs-ground.com/information/purpose-of-ground-rod

[Cornan]

Interesting, thanks for sharing @michaelD! I will follow your experiments with great interest!  

 

[Cornan]

Great review @michaelD! Written like a pro. Makes me very interested in Nordost grounding boxes. Actually, I will check them out right away.

 

I have a Aucharm grounding box plus 3pcs Douk Audio mini grounding boxes coming pretty soon. I will compare the much cheaper Aucharm to Entreq Minimus which I have used for many years now. The mini grounders will be added to my active speakers and to a D-Link network switch.