Proper Grounding a system

[michaelD]

I've been a big fan of proper grounding of a system since actually doing it a few years ago.  My main power strip is a Nordost QB8 which has a very convenient ground lug.  I have attached to it a separate earth ground (different from my electrical box house ground) and to a Entreq Sliver Tellus using their Apollo wire.  This has been my setup for about 3 years now.  I was very please with the darkness of my background not only with nothing playing but within tracks/notes the silence where it was supposed to be was great. There are also improvements in the bass as well.   I never went the whole way with the Entreq box to ground other components of my system not sure why just never did.  Fast forward today I now have two demo Silver Tellus minimus each connected to my Bricasti M28 amps using Silver Eartha cables (connected is to the negative speaker terminal).  In-addition to my Silver Tellus I connected to a RCA input to both my Bricasti M1 DAC and Aurender N10 Atlantis using Apollo Eartha cables.   I just got it hooked up last night and for those that don't know it takes the Entreq products about a day to reach full potential.  So Tonight I plan on doing some listening to see if there are even greater improvements.

 

Also Nordost is coming out with a grounding box called QKore.  I should have a demo box here later next week as I want to compare.  They have some write up on how its constructed on their web site but its considerably smaller and lighter then the Entreq solution.  However I think the $$'s to spend may be similar.  From what I've read the Nordost solution is active right away so that will be helpful doing a compare. Both the Entreq and Nordost solutions are passive solutions.

 

I'm sure the cable crowd that thinks cables don't make a difference will jump all over this but infact proper grounding does indeed improve the listening experience. More on this later.

[michaelD]

Yes I will post info as I have time and I'm particularly interested in the compare.  As I want to do something but don't know which is the best at least for my system and situation.  

 

I do have a metal network switch I'm curious how you grounded it and why?  What effect did that have?

[michaelD]

42 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I am also a big fan of external grounding and will surely follow your impressions with great interest! ?

If you have a metal case network switch in your audio chain I would recommend you to try grounding it...if you have'nt done it already.

 Yes would be interested in why you did this and what effect it has

[michaelD]

2 hours ago, Cornan said:

Here is a review with some good info for those who want to learn! ?

 

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/entreq.htm

 

Here is some info about ground reference

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/104222/where-is-the-ground-in-a-simple-electronic-circuit

 

Yes I have actually read the Audio Beat one several times there is a lot of info in it.  I was particularly interested in the comments about the Nordost QB8 ground lug, earth ground and how that figured into the setup.  Since I have that particular device and earth ground it was most helpful.

[michaelD]

14 hours ago, Daudio said:

 

Oh, I certainly believe in grounding ! I just do not believe these 'boxes' are grounds.

 

There is no circuit, and that is what I can't get beyond. If there was some kind of electrostatic charge from these materials, I wouldn't think it would have enough energy to affect anything at audio levels, or if it does, I'd think some big-money battery companies would be jumping all over it !

 

I've been an audiophile long enough to be open minded about a lot of odd things, so perhaps there is an audible effect. But I can't in clear concious call it 'Grounding'. Maybe it is some other effect  ?

 

Oh and, I'm not trying to rain on your hobby, but I would very much like to understand this thing better.

 

 

Typical Dribble from someone that has never tried a ground box.  I've been working real hard to have an honest test.  According to Entreq it takes a day to reach max and about the same once disconnected.  I have demoed this during this week and I can say for certain it does make a difference.  The attack of notes is much quicker and the sound is more spacious.  You certainly have the right to your opinion but to dismiss out of hand without actually doing the work is just "Noise". Sorry it does not meet your technical standard of measurable but for me my ears have measured and the verdict is it does work. 

 

For those interested in what this thread was about comparing Entreq to Nordost QKore my Q box should be here late next week to compare.  I the meantime I'm enjoying the Entreq setup. 

[michaelD]

On 5/17/2017 at 0:33 AM, Cornan said:

 

I beleive it means the QB8 is connected to a dedicated circuit and the grounding box is connected to the GND screw on the QB8. 

 

With that said I will leave you guys alone and come back when something interesting regarding grounding boxes or anything thread related turns up! ?

 

On 5/17/2017 at 0:33 AM, Cornan said:

 

I beleive it means the QB8 is connected to a dedicated circuit and the grounding box is connected to the GND screw on the QB8. 

 

With that said I will leave you guys alone and come back when something interesting regarding grounding boxes or anything thread related turns up! ?

Yes you are exactly right!

[michaelD]

WOW - we have gone off course big time here.  My original post did not ask about theory of operation it was just  a way for others to express their results with grounding boxes.  In particular Entreq boxes and soon the new Nordost QKore that was just introduced at the Munich show.  Some may even have the Telos boxes that would be interesting also.  Somehow we got way off tangent with this subject.  I you have no experience with these or other grounding boxes please save your comments as they are not being helpful.  If you do by all means lets hear how you got started and why you continue to use them.  

 

Personally I've been listening to my demo more enhanced Entreq setup and I really like what it does.  The note attacks are much crisper, particularity noticeable in the bass and the overall the music is more engaging and real. The other aspect is the darkness of the background.  I already had that with my initial setup with the Silver Tellus connected to the QB8 ground lug and at least for me adding the demo boxes did not enhance that but it really wasy excellant already.

Admittedly there is time needed about a day needed initially and once you disconnect it takes some time for the effect to diminish.  So a good AB is not all that possible and my memory is not as good as it used to be.  However what I'm told about the QKore is that it is immediate on and off so a much better idea of how it effects the overall sound will be much more noticeable.  I have all the models coming so hopefully late next week or over Memorial day weekend I will be having some fun testing.     

[michaelD]

Yes I will keep on subject.  I have QKore 1,3and 6 coming by this weekend and should have the mighty Olympus next week.   It should be interesting 

[michaelD]

Ok so I got some news to report.  

 

First off I got a Q1, Q3 and Q6 late last week.  However the Q6 was damaged in shipping so I could not test with that unit.  Its too bad as that is the one I really wanted to test since I could connect all my components to it. However I proceeded to move ahead using the Q1& 3.

 

Here are the combo's I used with my system:

 

1. Entreq Silver Tellus w/Everest, Apollo wire and earth ground both connected to the QB8 ground lug.  This has been my base setup for a few years now.

2. Q1 and earth ground connected to the QB8 lug.

3. Same as 2 except adding Q3 and connecting two more cables one each to M28 mono amp RCA's.

4. 1, 2 and 3 all together

5. Same as 3 but removing earth ground

 

Conclusion:

1 &2 not much difference at all.  If pushed hard I would give it to the Entreq box.  However the Entreq box was on an aluminum pan with spikes to my basement floor through carpeting.  The Q1 was on carpet in front of my amps. The reason being the 2M cables that come with the units were a little short to place it on the Aluminum pan with spikes.  I believe that may have been why the Nordost came up a little short.  Either way regardless its a plus sonically to have either connected.

 

3 was the best setup by far!  Its hard to say which is better Nordost or Entreq as its over a week ago but I had a similar setup with Entreq when I has 2 Silver minimus with Everest connected to the negative speaker output on each M28.  In addition at the time I also had my two digital components - Aurender N10 and Bricasti M1 DAC connected to the Silver Tellus. This sounded really good but can't test the Nordost solution until I get a working Q6.

 

4 did not help. Can't say it hurt but why add more items and extra cost with little gain.

 

5 by removing the earth ground this took away from the sound.  I have tried this in the past with the Entreq box alone and found that adding a earth ground did improve the effect.  So same with Nordost.

 

So what did I hear?

Bass was the big story in my opinion.  The Bass was deeper also being more solid or crisp. Over all the sound was just more engaging with some soundstage particularly 3D improvement.

 

I did finally move the Q1 and Q3 in a space that was close enough so their 2M cables would work so I could stack them on top of one another.  In addition I put TC sort kones under the Q1 and then the Q3 on top of that then placed this stack on my aluminum pan but replaced the spike feet with Sort Fut.  Boy this really made a big improvement.  The effect was even greater in all aspects nothing new just a much more noticeable total effect.

 

Entreq Vs Nordost - I do like the immediate effect that the Nordost product does.  It takes about 24 hours for the Entreq and doing a AB compare gets complicated and difficult.  I will have more to say once I connect the Q6 up.

 

So what is left is to get a new Q6 hopefully will be here by the weekend and then connect it to everything thing including the two digital components.  I think this will be the best but need to listen first. 

 

 

 

 

[michaelD]

So over the weekend I had a change to test a Qkore 6. What this did beyond the previous review is add my two digital components - Aurender N10 and Bricasti M1 SE DAC.  I really really liked the results with all my components hooked up.  

 

Now comes the tricky part how did it compare to the Entreq demo.  So for clarity purposes I want to describe the setups.

 

A. Silver Tellus w/ Everest connected with Apollo wire to QB8 and earth ground connected to QB8.

 

B. Entreq silver Tellus w/ Everest connected to a QB8  N10 and M1. connected using Apollo wires.  Also two Silver Minimus with Everest each connected to my M28 mono's. Also earth ground connected to QB8.

 

C. Nordost Qkore 6 connected to QB8, M1, both M28's and N10. Also earth ground connected to QB8.  The Q6 is supported by 3 TC kones on a aluminum pan which is also supported by four sort fut.

 

D.  Never tested but connect two Olympus minimus with Everest to each Amp the the rest to the Silver Tellus like in B above.  All connected with Apollo wires.  Ideally you want according to the manufacturer want to keep the analog separate from the digital.

 

As I said before setup A I have had for several years.  Both B and C were a real nice improvement in the bass particularly (deeper and more crisp) and in just the music sounding more real.  Describing these changes are not my full time job so I apologize in advance if my descriptions are not all the descriptive. 

 

Now comes the hard part what's better?  With Entreq it takes about a day for the full effect so its real hard to do a AB compare.  Since I started with Entreq its hard for me to just cast them off with a new product.  If pushed I would have to say C was definitely better than B.  I did some testing without the TC kones and Sort fut and that most definitely detracted from the experience using the Q6. How D would compare to C not certain but I would be surprised if it was better.  However with the Nordost product there are three things that I really liked which had nothing to do with performance.  Since they were so close at least for me it swayed me in the Nordost direction.

 

Assuming a Entreq Silver Tellus and two Olympus Minimus plus Apollo wires would be needed to compare the Nordost Q6:

 

1. Space - Entreq would take up a lot more space.  You certainly could stack them but I think isolating them with Still points or Sort Kones would improve the experience so even more space is needed.  The Nordost solution is compact and takes up a lot less space.To isolate it with Stillpoints or Sort Kones would be a lot easier.

 

2.  Cost - Long time user of Nordost products performance comes at a price in some cases a pretty steep price.  If you add up the two above solutions including the wires needed the Nordost solution will come in much less.  

 

3.  Time to hear the results.  Nordost solution is instant Entreq takes about 24 hours for full effect.  I really like the instant part.  It was like plugging in a new component to compare to another.

 

 

[michaelD]

27 minutes ago, YashN said:

 

I have certainly read more than one reports from people using the Entreq 'signal grounding' boxes about the delayed effect. This is one of the intriguing things about it. Not sure what causes this. I haven't seen anyone (even the textbook know-it-alls) give an explanation for that.

 

Hadn't heard of the Nordost box until now. Will check it out. In the meantime I am building a lot of synthesizer gear, and of course, we get similar issues with grounding between different modules and the prevailing use of unbalanced interconnect cables...

Not sure either what the technical reasons for the delay but I can tell you there is one.  

 

Just as  side note I took my Entreq Silver Tellus with Everest over to my son's setup.  He has a all in one (stereo and home theater) consisting of Parasound Integrated, Aurender N100H, Pioneer Elite receiver and Martin Logan 13a's, Stage X  and a single 210 sub.  He has my old QB8 also connected to a earth ground wire.  We proceeded to swap the main power cable to the QB8 from a Nordost Red Dawn to a Frey 2 and then moved the Red Dawn to replace the stock power on the 210.  In addition we connected the Silver Tellus to the QB8, Parasound and Pioneer.  Boy did that make a huge change!  In addition there was a small hum coming from his system that was driving both of us nuts for weeks that is now almost gone.   I had a similar issue with a hum in my media room and since I did not have much space and it was pre-Qkore I got a silver minimus and connected it to the ground lug on the Anthem AVM60 and the hum is completely gone!!

[michaelD]

So at this point I'm kind of done and waiting for others to try either solution and hear their comments.  Suggestions I would have is the following:

 

1.  The QB8 has a nice ground lug to attach too.  Not sure what other distribution type power strips have.  I have seem many that look similar but not certain if they have a ground lug.  To me I think this is important as all my components are plugged into this one connection point so it makes sense to me to have a common lug for grounding.  I'm not saying that Nordost QB8 is the only one to consider but if it was me I would be looking for that feature.  According to Nordost their system is effective if just connected to various components.  I did not try that but the manufacturer claims it will work so then no matter what setup you have it will work.  Also for that matter the Entreq solution can be similarly just connected to components.  Just a warning with the Entreq box setup as they recommend to connect to the negative terminal of your stereo amp or mono for best results.  You must not connect them to the same box if not I think there is a safety concern.  So like the Silver Tellus that I had you must not connect them to the same box.  An Olympus yes as it's essentially three separate boxes or for Stereo to a single Silver minimus.  They also recommend not connecting digital and analog for best results.  Nordost from what I know has no such issues that I'm aware of but I did not try either.  They also do not recommend to connect to the negative terminal of a amp only a spare connection which in my case was a RCA.  My original setup was with a Q1 for just the ground to the QB8 and the the Q3 I just hooked up the two mono amps.  I did not have a spare cable to connect either of my digital inputs but I think I could of.  Of course with the Q6 I could connect all components to the same box.

 

2.  For those that can I would recommend a earth ground in addition to whatever grounding box you decide on.  Like I have said previously with both the Entreq box and Nordost box adding the earth ground did help and it was noticeable.  If you are on a 2nd story etc. and can't don't sweat it as the box is way more effective then the earth ground by itself its just if you can it does a the bit more.

 

3. I have worked with Entreq and Nordost and both of the dealers I have worked with let me try first.  I would certainly encourage to demo on your own system.  I believe the Nordost one will be much easier spacewise and being instant on once connected to demo however.

 

I'm very interested in any that actually do try and to hear your results.

[michaelD]

19 hours ago, Trainleader said:

Michael you say nr5.. adding a earth ground improves the effect. How do you add earth ground? I live on 6th floor in an apartment so I cant hammer a pole to the ground in my garden. Do you go from ground in wall outlet to QB8 ground pin or do you go from the radiator to QB8? Sorry if my questions are stupid.. I dont know much about this.. but it seems to have a very good effect with good grounding conditions for my system.

 

Yes I did say that adding an additional ground if you can does help.  In your case the nice thing about either the Nordost or Entreq solution is that someone in an apartment can enjoy the benefits of grounding without an earth ground.  Either solution works well. 

[michaelD]

Which Entreq box and why?  Also are you going to try the QKore box?

[michaelD]

May be prices in Sweden but a Silver Tellus and Q1 are about $2500 here in the states.  Are you talking a Silver Tellus minimus?   If the Silver Tellus is that much less in Sweden then yes go for if.  

[michaelD]

I have been away for awhile so just catching up.  I read a lot of questioning how they work mostly from those that have done nothing but question how they work yet have put no effort in trying one or all of them out.  That's all great but the subject of the thread was to get comments from people who have actually tried and compared the various products be it Nordost Qkore, Entreq or SR etc.  I believe a couple of you were going to give it a try any comments from actual users not virtual ones?  Don't get me wrong it would be nice to know more how they work but in everyday life there are many things we use that we have really no idea yet we do -  is this any different if it sounds better do we really need to know more?

[michaelD]

6 hours ago, mekong56 said:

I see a lot of debate on technically how or why these units should or shouldn't work, so I just thought I would share my experience as a believer in the product, based purely on how it sounds in my system.

 

I demoed the Qkore 1 from my dealer last week. I had no idea of it's existence as a product yet until I walked in the store. I stopped in for other reasons. My standard question "what's new around here" led to a conversation about the Qkore units they had just recently gotten in. The salesman I was talking to has never steered me wrong and knows his stuff. I have demoed things in the past from him against his recommendation, and I always came back saying "you were right about that." He doesn't recommend spending money where he doesn't feel the return on investment is there (in my system). He was very enthusiastic about the Qkore units and was surprised how well the units actually worked when Nordost came in and demoed them in the store. I figured I had nothing to lose other than a weekend (which turned into a week) long home demo, and I never feel pressured into buying something I demo from them. I already am a fan of the Nordost power products. I already had a QB8, QX4, Qk1,QV2, and Sort Kone isolation devices. They are expensive, but I feel the performance is there. I am an all digital guy, no turntable in the system. 

 

Let me be clear - my expectations were nil, just plug it in and try it. I plugged the QKore1 into the grounding connection on my QB8. This how I would describe the effects after dropping it into my system:

 

1. System in general seems much quieter, i.e. less noise. As a result note decays and are longer, more harmonic detail and richness, slightly more detailed. Better image separation between instruments

2. Soundstage is more dimensional into the room (less flat)

3. A slight veil is lifted

4. Greater transparency with no loss in body. I had very good transparency before, but struggled with things getting too thin or threadbare sounding. Not so with the Qkore1 in place.

5. More natural sounding, especially in the highs. Cymbals are remarkably more detailed and delicate sounding. I am a drummer so I am often focused on this, but they just sound more like real cymbals.

6. Slightly more forward presentation

7. More natural sound across the board

 

It doesn't really change anything about the system, just makes it better across the board. I think all of the above is basically a function of less noise. I am not qualified to speak technically on what the unit is doing or how it is doing it, nor am I really going to worry about that. Don't care to debate the technicals. However, I knew within a day of listening that it's affect was substantial IN MY SYSTEM, and there was no way I was moving forward without one! I would suspect it will be system dependent upon each home's power and wiring infrastructure and grounding setup. I will say that it  was a much more substantial effect than when I dropped a QX4 into my system.

 

I REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO LIKE IT, because I was not planning on dropping the dough at this time, but dammit they got me...I purchased one. Do NOT want to listen without one :). Very happy with the results. In my opinion, it's a component that helps you get the best out of your system no matter what other component changes you make. Would love to try the Qkore6 but $5K ain't happening at this time.

Mekong56

 

Thanks for sharing a very good in depth personal review exactly what I started this thread about!   I wanted actual personal reviews of various grounding products but particularly Nordost or Entreq.  

 

Somehow part of this thread was hijacked by people who had all kinds of negative opinions on how they thought it did or did not work yet they personally tested NOTHING.    Mekong56 you sound like my kind of person all digital.   Would you care to share your system with us? Glad you at least tried it out.  Also I have had the same experience as you to try a Nordost product and then liked it so much purchased it.  

 

[michaelD]

35 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

I'm not the one making extraordinary claims.

And if I did some blind tests and found no differences, would you accept the tests as evidence that the grounding boxes don't work?

Here we go again!  Someone trying to dismiss grounding boxes yet has not tried one.  If indeed you did the work and actually tried some and then determined that they really do not make a sound difference that is positive absolutely that would add to the discussion.  But to run on and on with how this or that can't be measured yet you have heard or measured nothing does not make any sense.  Why don't you move on to another thread or better yet test some of the boxes and have some real input.